Looking for advice on converting from a 3 vessel HERMS to a 2 vessel setup.

[rdavidw]

My current system has been running well for about 8 years or so.
(3) 10 gallon stainless kettles
(2) Chuggar pumps
(1) 3,500 Watt Avantco induction cooker

I start by heating my combined volume of mash water and sparge water in my brew kettle on the left, typically 9.5 gallons.
I then pump my mash water to the center mash tun, mash in and set up a HERMS with a stainless built in coil in the left brew kettle.
After mashing, I pump all of the heated sparge water to the HLT on the left, often about 6 gallons or so. The left HLT has no heat source or coil.
To sparge, I pump from the HLT to a autospage in the center MT, and very slowly pump from the MT to the BK on the right, while starting the boil.

Works well, I have a total of about 9 hose changes. The HERMS coil in the BK is internally cleaned with the pumped sparge water and that same coil used to cool the wort, less to clean.

To cool the wort fast, I add large ice blocks to the HLT and pump that through the BK coil and back to the HLT.

I am happy with the set up, hitting about 82%-88% brew house efficiency.
I mill my grains on the fine side, so to avoid tannins I keep the PH at 5.3 and avoid sparging over 175F. One of the things I don't care for is after I bring my mash temp up to 170F coming out of the HEMS coil, I then pump the 178F to the HLT. That drops to about 176 in the HLT. I have the autospage set near the top on the MT, so at the start of the sparge the first water coming in is right around 175. Once the autosparge arm kicks in the hot water sits a long time in the pump and hoses and becomes much cooler.

I am considering changing to the following:
Replace the 10 gallon HLT and the 10 gallon MT with just a 16 gallon MT.
Rather then after the mash, pumping the sparge water from the BK to the HLT and then back to the MT, I would just pump all of the sparge water right on top of the mash in the larger BK. I would not need an autosparge in the larger MT.
I could then clean the larger MT during the boil and then fill it with the ice blocks to cool the wort.

My questions that come to mind,
* Would having a 16 gallon MT for just 5 gallon grain bills, with a less deep by wider grain bed have an adverse or positive effect? Would it take longer for the wort to clear and for the grain bed to set?
* Any disadvantage to having all of the sparge water sit on top of the grain bed right at the start of the spage? Would the clean spage water mix with the wort at the start and leave more sugar in the spent grain?
* Is there advantage to using cooler water for the end of the sparge, maybe as cool as 155F?

Thank you for any advice or suggestions!

Cheers!

David

 

[doug293cz]

* Any disadvantage to having all of the sparge water sit on top of the grain bed right at the start of the spage? Would the clean spage water mix with the wort at the start and leave more sugar in the spent grain?
* Is there advantage to using cooler water for the end of the sparge, maybe as cool as 155F?

Yes, you will get some mixing of the sparge water with the mash wort. The more mixing you get, the less efficient your sparge will be. The amount of mixing will depend to a large extent on just how you add the sparge water on top of the mash. The faster you add the water, and the more you stir things up while you do the add, the more mixing, and worse sparge you will get.

Sparge water temperature does not affect lauter efficiency. Using hotter sparge water will shorten the time required to reach boil at the end of lautering, but doesn't reduce the total energy needed to heat the water and wort.

In the case of incomplete conversion during the allotted mash time, and when no mash-out is done prior to lautering, then sparging with hot water (140° - 165°F) can allow additional starch conversion during the lautering, thus increasing your conversion efficiency, and mash efficiency.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

One of the things I don't care for is after I bring my mash temp up to 170F coming out of the HEMS coil, I then pump the 178F to the HLT.

I would not change a thing if this is the "issue" - because it actually isn't an issue...

Cheers!

 

[Bassman2003]

I would ask why you are wanting to change the set up outside of the above post? If you do change, you might consider a full volume mash instead of a sparge. Efficiency will go down but it will be easier. I do not think sparging without an HLT is a great fit. I really like full volume mashing with a gentle recirc. The lauter consists of just redirecting the flow to the boil kettle and it is crystal clear.

 

[rdavidw]

I would ask why you are wanting to change the set up outside of the above post? If you do change, you might consider a full volume mash instead of a sparge. Efficiency will go down but it will be easier. I do not think sparging without an HLT is a great fit. I really like full volume mashing with a gentle recirc. The lauter consists of just redirecting the flow to the boil kettle and it is crystal clear.

I have an old brass Blichmann Autosparge and the pin keeps rusting out. I also regret putting a sight glass on my MT. My thinking was that I could get rid of both with a new larger MT. One aspect of brewing I enjoy is hitting good efficiency numbers, and I don't mind spending more time on brew day. So, I think your advice of not moving away from having a HLT is sound. Thanks for the help Bassman2003!

 

[Bassman2003]

I see. I did not catch that you wanted to purchase a new larger mash tun to replace the two. You have to zero in on what you really enjoy with this hobby for sure. If you like the practice of brewing and hitting numbers etc... then let that be your fun. By the same token, after 8 years, maybe give yourself a treat and upgrade older equipment with new purpose built equipment that will save you time, anxiety and give you enjoyment.

I really like having an HLT and they do not need to be complicated to function well. I have an old sanke that I hired a welder to add two heating element ports & make bottom drain. Love it and all I have to do is fill it, heat and drain. No cleaning hardly at all since it only sees water. I use it for heating PBW water and it also allows me to underlet.

 

[Bobby_M]

If it were me, I'd sell the whole thing and replace it with a 15 gallon single vessel electric eBIAB. That's essentially what I did and my beer improved, my brew day got shorter and my temps were super stable. Sure, the efficiency went down, but it was the last thing I cared about. You'd also be taking an efficiency hit by eliminating the HLT anyway.

 

[WesBrew]

I think I'm downsizing from a 3v herms to a 1v biab/2v with a rims. Unloading a 15g mash tun and 8g herms. I'd have some options with the rims.

 

[Bassman2003]

@WesBrew How is your research regarding the RIMS? I have heard a lot of negative things about RIMS and killing enzymes prematurely do to high localized heat.

 

[doug293cz]

@WesBrew How is your research regarding the RIMS? I have heard a lot of negative things about RIMS and killing enzymes prematurely do to high localized heat.

If you design, and operate, the RIMS correctly, you won't have high localized heat. If you don't do it right, then you can have excessively high heat locally.

Brew on

 

[WesBrew]

@WesBrew How is your research regarding the RIMS? I have heard a lot of negative things about RIMS and killing enzymes prematurely do to high localized heat.

My limited research advised to make damn sure wort is pumping through it before turning it on!

 

[Bassman2003]

That is a good start! I was speaking to the design of the RIMS approach can denature mash enzymes because the heat in the RIMS tube is a lot hotter than the main mash. So they can be counter productive and tricky to know if damage is being done.

 

[WesBrew]

Ok I see. Temp probe has to be located at the exit of the rims so that doesn't occur. It cannot be put in the mash tun or at the entry to rims.

 

[doug293cz]

My limited research advised to make damn sure wort is pumping through it before turning it on!

When I design RIMS control panels, I interlock the RIMS element enable contactor with the RIMS pump switch so that the RIMS element cannot be turned on unless the pump is running. Even better is a flow switch at the RIMS outlet interlocked with the RIMS element enable contactor, but that adds a lot of complexity for only a little better insurance against dry firing.

Brew on

 

[WesBrew]

I think that is what the Rims protect does on my Brew Commander although I've never used it.

 

[rdavidw]

If it were me, I'd sell the whole thing and replace it with a 15 gallon single vessel electric eBIAB. That's essentially what I did and my beer improved, my brew day got shorter and my temps were super stable. Sure, the efficiency went down, but it was the last thing I cared about. You'd also be taking an efficiency hit by eliminating the HLT anyway.

Something like this? PREMIUM RECIRCULATING ELECTRIC (240V) BIAB PACKAGE (BLICHMANN BOTTOM DRAIN EDITION)

 

[Bobby_M]

Something like this? PREMIUM RECIRCULATING ELECTRIC (240V) BIAB PACKAGE (BLICHMANN BOTTOM DRAIN EDITION)

I mean, that's a pretty good option if you're asking. It's the exact one that I'm brewing on lately but I like this picture of my friend Larry's which is the 30G BIGGINS..