Is this considered a Leak

[A1sportsdad]

I am putting my gas panel together for my Keezer. I have a 10 lb CO2 tank connected to a Primary Regulator tubed to a 3-Valve Secondary Regulator. Two ports of the secondary are tubed to 4-Valve Manifolds. All ports on the manifolds are off. I open the tank and adjust the regulator valves so I read something then shut the tank valve. All gauges hold pressure. I have sprayed the connections with soapy water and see no evidence of leaks. I come back after 6 to 8 hours and the gauges have dropped some. Come back the next morning and they are zeroed out. Is this normal or is this still considered a leak that needs to be resolved?
Thanks.

 

[day_trippr]

I'd call it a leak.
I have multiple regulator sets and can charge any of them then shut the tank valve and not see the low pressure gauge drop for weeks.

Took me a moment to actually figure out what's going on here with all the cross-coupled manifolds

Cheers!

 

[A1sportsdad]

I'd call it a leak.
I have multiple regulator sets and can charge any of them then shut the tank valve and not see the low pressure gauge drop for weeks.

Took me a moment to actually figure out what's going on here with all the cross-coupled manifolds

Cheers!

Well I’m using ultra barrier gas tubing with hose clamps onto barb fittings. How tight do you need to crank down on these? Don’t want to damage the lines, but need to try to resolve the issue.

I will be using EVA downstream of the manifolds with DUOTight fittings, but none of that is in play yet.
Thanks.

 

[hotbeer]

I'd pay particular attention to the hoses you have on barbs using worm clamps. Worm clamps are quick and many times good enough, but not ideal.

 

[ITV]

The leak may be from the seal between the primary regulator and the tank.
I prefer the nylon washer style gasket over the small o-ring style.

 

[Broken Crow]

Just curious..

..Is that 3/8" tubing on a 5/16" swivel-nut?

 

[Broken Crow]

Oh!... just to cover all the bases: Did you remember to put the flare-fitting washers in the swivel nuts?

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I converted all of the beer and gas lines in my humble brewery to EVAbarrier in 2019. 49 total PTC fittings involved.
I did blow the back out of one 1/4" MFL to tubing connector while learning how much to tighten them
Hand tight then maybe a 1/4 turn with a wrench worked well - I haven't had any other fittings fail...

Cheers!

 

[A1sportsdad]

Just curious..
View attachment 812446
..Is that 3/8" tubing on a 5/16" swivel-nut?

It’s 5/16 ID tubing. The connections are on barbs. The regulators came with barb fittings so no adapting there. I did have to put flare to barb fittings on the manifolds. I used 5 wraps of Teflon tape on the flare threads.

 

[A1sportsdad]

Oh!... just to cover all the bases: Did you remember to put the flare-fitting washers in the swivel nuts?

I did not put any washers. I used 5 wraps of Teflon tape on the flare threads.

 

[Deadalus]

For many years I used worm clamps on my keg setup but it was always a bit of work to get the system leak free. Oetiker clamps are a better option if you stick to the same type of tubing.

Looking at your manifolds, it appears you have used teflon tape on the swivel barbs which are flare fittings. Flare fittings don't use teflon tape. The male side of the fitting will either have a sort of gasket material in it, look at a ball lock quick disconnect with a flare fitting, or it won't. If it doesn't, you would need a small nylon washer for it, they are specifically for flare fittings. The brass plug and the brass flareXNPT adapter would need teflon tape (or pipe dope) on the NPT threads. I'd go with the tape myself. The manifold manufacturers use some kind of paste sometimes but I don't know what it is.

I don't understand what the PTC tees are there for?

 

[A1sportsdad]

fwiw, I converted all of the beer and gas lines in my humble brewery to EVAbarrier in 2019. 49 total PTC fittings involved.
I did blow the back out of one 1/4" MFL to tubing connector while learning how much to tighten them
Hand tight then maybe a 1/4 turn with a wrench worked well - I haven't had any other fittings fail...

Cheers!

Yes. I’m using all EVA from the manifolds down including the beer lines.

 

[A1sportsdad]

For many years I used worm clamps on my keg setup but it was always a bit of work to get the system leak free. Oetiker clamps are a better option if you stick to the same type of tubing.

Looking at your manifolds, it appears you have used teflon tape on the swivel barbs which are flare fittings. Flare fittings don't use teflon tape. The male side of the fitting will either have a sort of gasket material in it, look at a ball lock quick disconnect with a flare fitting, or it won't. If it doesn't, you would need a small nylon washer for it, they are specifically for flare fittings. The brass plug and the brass flareXNPT adapter would need teflon tape (or pipe dope) on the NPT threads. I'd go with the tape myself. The manifold manufacturers use some kind of paste sometimes but I don't know what it is.

I don't understand what the PTC tees are there for?

Thanks for that. I have nylon washers as long as they are the right size.
The Tee’s are just me trying to minimize the number of gas lines run into the Keezer. Will have 4 kegs and a couple higher pressure lines for force carbing. I Tee’ed the 2 manifold so I can on a keg basis swap from higher or lower pressure. Just my idea. All new to this.
Thanks.

 

[Deadalus]

Since you have the valves off leading from the manifold, there shouldn't be any leaks in the evabarrier sections. You may have put that together without going over it a second time but I wanted to mention that it looks like you may have not seated the tubing completely near the tees. I little pull back on the collars is helpful. The blue clips are also useful because they help to indicate the collar is seated completely as you won't be able to squeeze them in if the collar isn't backed off a little. A gap is needed and perhaps near the tees there is no gap on some of the collars.

I am going to think a little bit about what you posted about the tees.

A different idea for a high pressure line is to use a tee or wye off the primary regulator. One side would be high pressure for burst carbing and the other could go to your secondary regulators. You could set your primary to say 30 PSI. Now you could then send the 30 PSI side to one of your manifolds but I am still thinking about the tees idea. If you only can fit four kegs, you can always burst carb starting at a tee or wye from the primary regulator. The next three kegs can be either burst carbed or set to different pressures with your three secondaries. This is how my four keg keezer is set up. And if you wanted to keep your tank outside the keezer, run a line inside than the tee or wye inside the keezer.

 

[Deadalus]

Before you go cranking on the brass connections, I happen to have recently got that same Komos manifold and recall the fittings were all supertight on them. I just looked and I noticed I didn't teflon tape mine. I figured as I was having so much trouble getting them off that they had to be tight! My manifold is for a jockey box and I have had it connected twice with no leaks. So maybe not a leak on the manifold's brass fittings.

I like the angle on the valves that this manifold uses. Gives a little room to work.

 

[A1sportsdad]

Okay, so I’m assuming my issue is not using the nylon flair washers. Just ordered some. Another couple days delay. Hoping that fixes the issue. Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[A1sportsdad]

Since you have the valves off leading from the manifold, there shouldn't be any leaks in the evabarrier sections. You may have put that together without going over it a second time but I wanted to mention that it looks like you may have not seated the tubing completely near the tees. I little pull back on the collars is helpful. The blue clips are also useful because they help to indicate the collar is seated completely as you won't be able to squeeze them in if the collar isn't backed off a little. A gap is needed and perhaps near the tees there is no gap on some of the collars.

I am going to think a little bit about what you posted about the tees.

A different idea for a high pressure line is to use a tee or wye off the primary regulator. One side would be high pressure for burst carbing and the other could go to your secondary regulators. You could set your primary to say 30 PSI. Now you could then send the 30 PSI side to one of your manifolds but I am still thinking about the tees idea. If you only can fit four kegs, you can always burst carb starting at a tee or wye from the primary regulator. The next three kegs can be either burst carbed or set to different pressures with your three secondaries. This is how my four keg keezer is set up. And if you wanted to keep your tank outside the keezer, run a line inside than the tee or wye inside the keezer.

I have the clips. Just have not installed them yet since I’m not done on the EVA side yet. Pretty sure they are all seated but will make sure when I install the clips. Thanks.

 

[Deadalus]

Okay, so I’m assuming my issue is not using the nylon flair washers. Just ordered some. Another couple days delay. Hoping that fixes the issue. Thanks for all the feedback.

Good chance that might be it. Don't sweat it though, we were all new at this once. I picked that tip up here myself. Kind of funny really, I picked it up twice! I replaced something on my manifold once and bought a pack of the washers. Then about a year or two later I was having an issue, reread the tip, and I was ready to order them again when I noticed I had them in my drawer.

That these manifolds and regulators come with barbed fittings doesn't suggest the potential to switch to Evabarrier and ptc fittings. It took me a while to get a good understanding of how the secondary regulators and primary regulators function. Then when you are putting together the parts you might just look at the connections and decide ok, I need tubing for the barbs and tubing for the ptc fittings. I'll bet you may have bought those Komos manifolds because they had the flare fittings instead of barbs? It was initially why I got mine this past summer, I didn't actually need the angled manifold as I have mine mounted on a cart. But you could just run Evabarrier straight from the primary regulator. You would swap out the barbed fitting at the beginning secondary to a flare fitting. Then you could also change out the valves off the secondaries to valves with flare fittings as I don't think the barbs come off too easy on those valves if at all. My keezer is set up with bigger ID gas line similar to yours which continue on past the secondaries to gas QDs. I did switch my bev lines to Evabarrier and PTC though but didn't think about the gas lines at the time. It was only when I was redoing my jockey box manifold that I got a better understanding of ptc fittings on the gas side.

 

[camonick]

It’s 5/16 ID tubing. The connections are on barbs. The regulators came with barb fittings so no adapting there. I did have to put flare to barb fittings on the manifolds. I used 5 wraps of Teflon tape on the flare threads.

Just from what I can see.
1. It works best to use tubing that is one step below the barb it’s going on, ie. 5/16” tubing on a 3/8” barb.
2. Definitely want to use the little “fish-eye” nylon washers on all metal-metal flare connections.

 

[bracconiere]

and you do have a nylon tank washer too, and aren't counting on the stupid taprite rubber o-ring?

 

[A1sportsdad]

and you do have a nylon tank washer too, and aren't counting on the stupid taprite rubber o-ring?

I do have them, but did not use one. That connection seems to be okay. If I put the nylon regulator washer on, do I leave the o-ring in place?

 

[bracconiere]

If I put the nylon regulator washer on, do I leave the o-ring in place?

that's what i did with no leaks...i don't know what the point of the o-rings are, MOST co2 tanks have a groove right where they are supposed to seal, and also i'd noticed the o-ring deforms very easily.....

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I do not use fisheye flare washers anywhere in my brewery since switching to EVAbarrier and PTCs. The plastic PTC connectors provide all the deformation needed to seal against metal threaded fittings...



Cheers!

 

[A1sportsdad]

For many years I used worm clamps on my keg setup but it was always a bit of work to get the system leak free. Oetiker clamps are a better option if you stick to the same type of tubing.

Looking at your manifolds, it appears you have used teflon tape on the swivel barbs which are flare fittings. Flare fittings don't use teflon tape. The male side of the fitting will either have a sort of gasket material in it, look at a ball lock quick disconnect with a flare fitting, or it won't. If it doesn't, you would need a small nylon washer for it, they are specifically for flare fittings. The brass plug and the brass flareXNPT adapter would need teflon tape (or pipe dope) on the NPT threads. I'd go with the tape myself. The manifold manufacturers use some kind of paste sometimes but I don't know what it is.

I don't understand what the PTC tees are there for?

I received my nylon flair washers so redid those connections. Found that I had pretty much destroyed the tubing with those hose clamps. Gonna have to swap over to Oetiker clamps. I assume what I want is single ear hose clamps. Never used these before.

 

[Deadalus]

I received my nylon flair washers so redid those connections. Found that I had pretty much destroyed the tubing with those hose clamps. Gonna have to swap over to Oetiker clamps. I assume what I want is single ear hose clamps. Never used these before.

I just started using them last April myself, I bought this kit, they are all single ears. I also use mine on my EHERMS's barbs and hoses and my O2 hoses. The variety pack of clamps makes finding the right clamp easier IMHO. My limited understanding is that the single ears won't pinch the tubing and that maybe the double ears have more adjustment room.

 

[Bobby_M]

First things first. Close the output valve of the primary tank mounted regulator. With the tank on, set the output pressure to 30psi and then close the tank valve. Wait an hour. Did the pressure drop? If so, you have a leak within the regulator accessories or between the tank and regulator. That nut should be as tight as you can get it with a 12" adjustable wrench. No teflon tape. No washers... The taprite has a captured oring.

If that holds, do the same test with all three of the secondary regulator output valves shut. It doesn't matter much but set the secondary reg pressures all to 25psi and then shut the tank valve. Does THAT hold? If not, you have a problem between the primary and secondary bank, or on one of the threaded connections on the secondary. I've found that Taprite quality control has been in the toilet the last year or two where they'd put "QC'd by" stickers on but I'd still find a couple regulators without any thread sealant on one of the gauges.

Never use teflon tape on flare connections, it's just wrong.

Less important, but when stuck with barbed anything, I tend to use tubing one size down. 1/4" ID over 5/16" barbs for example. It takes some of the importance of clamps away, but Oetiker clamps will do much better.

 

[mattd2]

First things first. Close the output valve of the primary tank mounted regulator. With the tank on, set the output pressure to 30psi and then close the tank valve. Wait an hour. Did the pressure drop? If so, you have a leak within the regulator accessories or between the tank and regulator. That nut should be as tight as you can get it with a 12" adjustable wrench. No teflon tape. No washers... The taprite has a captured oring.

If you isolate the leak to this section the other point where it may be leaking in past the cylinder valve stem. Some valves are backseating and require the valve to be opened fully to seal (hand snug but don't overtighten it). Check the valve stem with your soapy water when you test this section.

 

[Bobby_M]

If you isolate the leak to this section the other point where it may be leaking in past the cylinder valve stem. Some valves are backseating and require the valve to be opened fully to seal (hand snug but don't overtighten it). Check the valve stem with your soapy water when you test this section.

This is true, but extremely rare especially given that the tank is new. I manage a rotating inventory of about 200 tanks and we only see a stem leak about twice a year. It still doesn't hurt to spend the drop of soap to check.

 

[Deadalus]

...

Less important, but when stuck with barbed anything, I tend to use tubing one size down. 1/4" ID over 5/16" barbs for example. It takes some of the importance of clamps away, but Oetiker clamps will do much better.

I don't like barbs either and look to avoid them myself. I've seen this advice about sizing the tubing down stated a few different times now by different individuals sometimes as "the answer" to the problem, which you are not doing, but then some caveats are left off about what some of the cons may be. Like sometimes it's a pain in the ass to get the now oversized barb into the tubing. Yes hot water helps a lot but this type of 5/16" tubing can be difficult to get a swivel barb into specifically. Yes I've done it, and Bobby you've probably down it hundreds of times, but here the OP is new to this. It can be frustrating particularly since the barb sizing indicates the tubing ID and they are supposed to match! And you were just being of matter of fact, but sometimes the way it is said makes it seem like it's common knowledge to do it. Common knowledge is to match both sides of the fitting. Minor quip really. The OP is new at this though and bought 5/16" ID gas line which has been the common size for gas line in homebrewing prior to PTC fittings being offered. Regulators don't normally come sized with 3/8" barbs. I'm not saying they don't exist but I went to Taprite's site to see and didn't find a replacement valve with that barb size. There were 5/16" and 1/4" barbs on the valves. The barb on the manifold won't be 3/8" either. It's uncommon to see that type of gas line in 1/4" ID, not commonly seen in HB stores. Now the 9.5mm OD Evabarrier has a 1/4" ID but that's just wrong to jam on a barb, it's meant for ptc (buy the correct ptc fitting ya cheapos!). Similarly SS QD's and camlocks are sized for 1/2" tubing, not usually a 9/16" barb available. There are common standardized sizes for HB equipment for different parts of the process. Making the suggestion to size the tubing down may not be readily possible without a lot of time consuming search effort and potentially higher cost for an uncommon barb size not normally found in your LHBS. And more broadly, the industry designs the barbs and tubing to go together as a matched size, which I know tubing and barb manufacturers may not produce products for the same types of applications, but when they do, the barbs and tubing are supposed to MATCH the stated size (unless it is irrigation lines, f*%^@!s). Pipes are somewhat nominal, so if the tubing was not fitting the tubing manufacturers could just make it smaller ID with the same nominal measurement stated. But they don't do that because in general they do fit, and that makes the advice to size down the tubing off base. Plus it may be stressing the tubing more than is expected.

And that's why barbs suck!

 

[A1sportsdad]

I installed the flair washers. Didn’t bother to remove the Teflon tape. I figure it’s not hurting anything. It’s been about 16 hours with the tank off and the gauges have not moved. I think that issue is resolved though I am switching to Oetiker clamps. Those hose clamps destroyed my tubing.
Next I will be moving downstream to all of the EVA and PTC’s.
One bite at a time. Thanks for all the help.

 

[day_trippr]

Regulators don't normally come sized with 3/8" barbs. I'm not saying they don't exist but I went to Taprite's site to see and didn't find a replacement valve with that barb size.

You looked in the wrong place I have a Micromatic Premium primary reg on my beergas tank and they come with a 3/8" barb.

https://www.beveragecraft.com/primary-co2-regulator-micromatic/
Lemme tell ya getting 5mm ID EVAbarrier tubing over that bastard was a pita but I got it done with heat and a swaging spike...

Cheers!

 

[Deadalus]

You looked in the wrong place I have a Micromatic Premium primary reg on my beergas tank and they come with a 3/8" barb.

https://www.beveragecraft.com/primary-co2-regulator-micromatic/
Lemme tell ya getting 5mm ID EVAbarrier tubing over that bastard was a pita but I got it done with heat and a swaging spike...

View attachment 812684

Cheers!

Aw man put a disclaimer on that, that's hideous with the worm gear! And you shrink wrapped it too. Duct tape would have been classier. No doubt it must have been a PITA, I'm guessing but that's probably Evabarrier and the biggest common size for that is 9.5mmOD x 6.5mm ID making that a 1/4" on a 3/8".

Ok Micromatic does it. In fact, looking at their site, they do tell you to size down the tubing to 5/16" on their 3/8" barbs. I don't have any Micromatics, but I happen to have five primary regulators currently and none of them are or were 3/8" barbs(Taprite (2), Komos, Cornelius, unknown). Nor was the four-way manifold I just gave away or the one I have in my parts bin. I didn't say you wouldn't find any that are 3/8" barbs but 5/16" barbs are a lot more common for HB CO2 regulators. If all you know about a new regulator is that it takes 5/16" ID gas line, then the barb on it is 5/16" as that's the convention, unless it's a Micromatic and it tells you that in the parantheses of the description as that caveat is needed since they don't want you to follow convention. Could potentially be another company but that would just illustrate how that advice will waste time.

 

[day_trippr]

Well, I bet they didn't burn as many words discussing barbs as all that
Hells, I'm not defending anyone, just pointing out the reality.

[edit] Also, fwiw, the 6.5mm ID EVA wasn't made back in 2019. It would be somewhat easier to get that over a 3/8" barb than the 5mm ID, though I bet it would still take some heat...

Cheers!

 

[Deadalus]

Short

X ID tube→X barb (-Micromatic).
1/4 3/16≠ 5/16≠ 3/8.

 

[Bobby_M]

Like sometimes it's a pain in the ass to get the now oversized barb into the tubing.

Pushing 1/4 PVC over a 5/16 barb is trivial. I generally recommend this when someone doesn't want to invest in an oetiker pinching tool. With Oetikers, a size matched barb is fine. With generic worm drive clamps, which do no apply even force, an oversized barb helps a lot at avoiding leaks. Long story short, everyone should own an oetiker tool.

long rant

 

[BAF]

Can get by with a pair of diagonal cutters if you don't want to buy an oetiker tool as well. Not that they're very expensive though.

 

[Deadalus]

Pushing 1/4 PVC over a 5/16 barb is trivial. I generally recommend this when someone doesn't want to invest in an oetiker pinching tool. With Oetikers, a size matched barb is fine. With generic worm drive clamps, which do no apply even force, an oversized barb helps a lot at avoiding leaks. Long story short, everyone should own an oetiker tool.

BS, sometimes it's a PITA to work with the thick-walled tubing even with the properly sized barbs. Reducing the tubing size would just make it harder, particularly if somone is new. I agree, the correct answer is owning an oetiker tool, not mismatching your tubing and barb sizes because you don't. Or skip the barbs when you can use Evabarrier and the correct ptc fittings. The clamping tool and fittings are inexpensive. Hobbies do require equipment and supplies.

 

[A1sportsdad]

Okay. Redid all the metal to metal flair fittings to install flair washers. That worked for sure. Now just redid all my ultra barrier gas tubing connections to eliminate the hose clamps and replace with Oetiker clamps. Now I’ve pressurized it, turned off at the tank and will see if it holds pressure. Still not checking downstream of the manifolds. That will be next.

 

[A1sportsdad]

Okay. Redid all the metal to metal flair fittings to install flair washers. That worked for sure. Now just redid all my ultra barrier gas tubing connections to eliminate the hose clamps and replace with Oetiker clamps. Now I’ve pressurized it, turned off at the tank and will see if it holds pressure. Still not checking downstream of the manifolds. That will be next.

Looks like I missed a couple. Doh.

 

[tracer bullet]

Where each of your valves goes into a manifold, as well as those brass pieces, do you have any pipe dope in there? I'm guessing those aren't using any kind of gasket. I'd put some pipe dope in there or there's a chance it'll leak slowly past those threads. Maybe you used some tape and I'm not noticing it.

Also, pipe dope > teflon tape.