How does diactel rest work when fermentation was hot

[Wrathchild]

I brewed an English brown ale, its a caribou slobber look a like, Saturday and pitched it Saturday evening with lallamand windsor ale yeast. Packet says about 60 to 70 is optimal but my fermentation took off very quickly as I pitched at 68 degrees. By Sunday morning my tilt read 76 degrees and my room temp was 68 degrees. By Sunday evening the krausen had started falling already and vigorous fermentation almost stopped. Tilt started at 1.054 and seems to have stopped at 1.025. I dont believe the tilt that much. My question is do I have to raise the temp again for a diacetyl rest? Or should I just wait a week or two. Im not scared of a stuck fermentation but I do have a bit of unfermentable sugars in there. Fg should be alot lower then 1.025. Should be around 1.011. I know its still super early, but I was wondering if I should raise the temp being it was already high. I hope I made this understandable!

 

[Garrett_McT]

Usually ales clean up their own diacetyl at Primary Fermentation temps. It wouldn’t necessarily hurt to raise the temperature, it might create more esters than what the listed profile of the yeast says. If you are ok with that then go ahead.

As for the attenuation question, your mash temperatures and time of the steps would determine how your final gravity would look like, but even still that is quite high regardless of mash. Stuck fermentation might be the problem.

First of all I’m jealous of the tilt! Wish I could let myself spend that kind of money. But honestly if the gravity reading has stabilized on the tilt then fermentation might be complete. You are correct to not trust the tilt reading. There are many reasons that could contribute to it not reading accurately, primarily the krausen, which you said has fallen. But open it up take a temp
And gravity reading and see if it has reached FG through some other method besides the tilt.

did you calibrate the tilt before you used it? When I read into buying one, and didn’t pull the trigger, they had a way to calibrate it with water and suggested to do that before each use.

cheers!

 

[Wrathchild]

Usually ales clean up their own diacetyl at Primary Fermentation temps. It wouldn’t necessarily hurt to raise the temperature, it might create more esters than what the listed profile of the yeast says. If you are ok with that then go ahead.

As for the attenuation question, your mash temperatures and time of the steps would determine how your final gravity would look like, but even still that is quite high regardless of mash. Stuck fermentation might be the problem.

First of all I’m jealous of the tilt! Wish I could let myself spend that kind of money. But honestly if the gravity reading has stabilized on the tilt then fermentation might be complete. You are correct to not trust the tilt reading. There are many reasons that could contribute to it not reading accurately, primarily the krausen, which you said has fallen. But open it up take a temp
And gravity reading and see if it has reached FG through some other method besides the tilt.

did you calibrate the tilt before you used it? When I read into buying one, and didn’t pull the trigger, they had a way to calibrate it with water and suggested to do that before each use.

cheers!

Thanks for the speedy response! Greatly appreciated my man! When I got the tilt, i did some experiments with it but only used it in a glass that was deep enough to make it float. It said to start out at about 1.090 or a bit higher. I only had brown sugar and it took many tablespoons to get the gravity to 1.090. And that reading was on my refractometer. The tilt wasn't even close. It read 1.025. My brother in law had to send one back for false readings but got one that worked. I decided to chuck it in this brew just to see and it came out very close to my original 1.054 so I figured its working. I now believe the temperature is close within a degree or two because I pitched at about 68 and the tilt said 70. I just checked the tilt and its down to 1.021 and thats with a nice swirl of the carboy. Its got a beautiful layer of yeast already settled but I sent it back into suspension just in case. It seems to be going down still but that wasn't my concern. Ive never used a tilt before and this is my 11th all grain brew and ive never had a problem. I just never saw how hot fermentation actually gets even if the tilt is off a few degrees, its still way over room temperature. I figured the rest will take care of its self with time. Im not totally sold on the tilt and I was very skeptical on buying one but my wife told me she'd kill me if I did and well, im still alive!!! Haha take that baby!

 

[Garrett_McT]

ok so it’s still going down. Honestly I let most of my ales are free ride and I haven’t noticed any off flavors. I try to stay about 5 degrees within the range of the spec on the yeast.

I’ve been all grain brewing for like 2 years now, covid kicked up my brewing frequency a lot! So I probably have like around 26 brews maybe, probably more.

My saison was fermented at a very high temp, I’d have to go back and see for the specific temp. No negative effects noticeable, even after like 4 months of aging.

 

[Wrathchild]

ok so it’s still going down. Honestly I let most of my ales are free ride and I haven’t noticed any off flavors. I try to stay about 5 degrees within the range of the spec on the yeast.

I’ve been all grain brewing for like 2 years now, covid kicked up my brewing frequency a lot! So I probably have like around 26 brews maybe, probably more.

My saison was fermented at a very high temp, I’d have to go back and see for the specific temp. No negative effects noticeable, even after like 4 months of aging.

Thats badass man! I've had a beer that sucked at the start and 3 months in? That beer was one of the best I've ever tasted. Oxidation and maybe a bug saved me from a horrible sweet. Its all subjective but most of all, its just God damn fun to see what you can create! End of the day, it gets you drunk and thats why we're all here! Cheers

 

[renstyle]

Let it all ride my friend! I recently brewed a Newcastle clone with Nottingham, set the chamber for 68, but it also bumped up into the low 70s a bit, then settled down. Didn't do a d-rest at all, just gave the batch ample time to get to FG, then kegged it out.

Much like fining agents have less of a measurable effect on a dark porter vs a pilsner, any diacetyl created will not "jump out" and swamp the flavors you are going for in an American Brown, and as already mentioned will generally get consumed by the yeast at ale fermentation temps.

You're good.

 

[DuncB]

@Garrett_McT
Have a look at the ispindel, cheaper and does the job ( except a bit bigger so you can't fit it in carboys ). I love mine, pretty simple to make or buy one.

 

[Garrett_McT]

@Garrett_McT
Have a look at the ispindel, cheaper and does the job ( except a bit bigger so you can't fit it in carboys ). I love mine, pretty simple to make or buy one.

Thanks for the suggestion. Honestly I thought the last time I checked I had to buy it from a seller which none were around me. I could have been confused with something else, but I just found some on eBay! Here we go!

 

[Wrathchild]

Let it all ride my friend! I recently brewed a Newcastle clone with Nottingham, set the chamber for 68, but it also bumped up into the low 70s a bit, then settled down. Didn't do a d-rest at all, just gave the batch ample time to get to FG, then kegged it out.

Much like fining agents have less of a measurable effect on a dark porter vs a pilsner, any diacetyl created will not "jump out" and swamp the flavors you are going for in an American Brown, and as already mentioned will generally get consumed by the yeast at ale fermentation temps.

You're good.

Man patience is a bummer!

 

[DuncB]

Thanks for the suggestion. Honestly I thought the last time I checked I had to buy it from a seller which none were around me. I could have been confused with something else, but I just found some on eBay! Here we go!

Very good forum on here but it's under the spelling ispindle.

You will have a new obsession now watching temperatures and gravities on line. Still need to use your hydrometer for OG check and FG but like all of the floating gravity measure devices ( Tilt, Ispindel and floaty ) they do get affected by pressure and krausen stuck on their tops. But regardless of how off whack it might go in a ferment they are super accurate for temp and will tell you when ferment finishing and show the trend.

Can't say it makes brewing fun as it was fun before. But it's funnier with an ispindel!

 

[Bobby_M]

For ales, try to think of the diacetyl rest not as a temperature rise but as a temperature maintain. As you saw, the core of an aggressively fermenting beer is several degrees warmer than ambient temp. Diacetyl problems, or "abandoned diacetyl" in a finished beer is usually partially a function of the yeast crashing out too soon due to the drop in core temperature as fermentation slows. If your beer ferments at 75, you want to be sure it's held at 75 all the way through to several days after terminal gravity.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

If your beer ferments at 75, you want to be sure it's held at 75 all the way through to several days after terminal gravity.

For many years I fermented in a cool area without dedicated temp control. When I did finally move to a controlled chest freezer a couple years ago I figured I would get some benefit from keeping my beers cooler during active fermentation. I think that has helped, but honestly the biggest improvement may have been with keeping them warmer after active fermentation.

My common fermentation schedule for an American or English ale strain is to start at 64F to 66F, then ramp the temp up to 70F to 72F as the fermentation starts to slow (usually after 3-4 days of active fermentation). I then hold the beer at the warmer temp until time to package.

 

[Wrathchild]

For many years I fermented in a cool area without dedicated temp control. When I did finally move to a controlled chest freezer a couple years ago I figured I would get some benefit from keeping my beers cooler during active fermentation. I think that has helped, but honestly the biggest improvement may have been with keeping them warmer after active fermentation.

My common fermentation schedule for an American or English ale strain is to start at 64F to 66F, then ramp the temp up to 70F to 72F as the fermentation starts to slow (usually after 3-4 days of active fermentation). I then hold the beer at the warmer temp until time to package.

Thats my problem. Absolutely no control over temperature. My house is set to 68 in the winter and I know where my cooler spots are and set to 74 in the summer and I know where the cooler spots are as well. Ambient temps are almost spot on in these places however the tilt has finally shown me how warm the beer gets during fermentation. My ale went from 76 on the high end an is back to 71 now. I'd have no way to warm it back to that temp safely aside from moving in front of a window and covering it with a black towel but it seems risky. Im still on the high end of the recommended temp so time will be the teller at this point. Im 4 days in

 

[ThatVideoKid]

You could get a ~$20 seed starting or reptile cage heating mat. You'd just have to keep an eye on it without a controller.

That said, I don't think you'll have Diacetyl issues at 71, and it'll probably finish out. I also just wouldn't really trust the tilt tbh.

 

[Wrathchild]

You could get a ~$20 seed starting or reptile cage heating mat. You'd just have to keep an eye on it without a controller.

That said, I don't think you'll have Diacetyl issues at 71, and it'll probably finish out. I also just wouldn't really trust the tilt tbh.

Thanks man. I already dont trust the tilt. I didnt have confidence when I threw it in my fermenter and this is the first time using it. If my Fg is greatly different with my hydrometer im gonna get my $140 back cause thats without a doubt the most ive spent on one item for brewing to date and it doesn't even work. It only shows me that there is changes going on in the carboy. $140 isn't worth what I already know

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Thanks man. I already dont trust the tilt. I didnt have confidence when I threw it in my fermenter and this is the first time using it. If my Fg is greatly different with my hydrometer im gonna get my $140 back cause thats without a doubt the most ive spent on one item for brewing to date and it doesn't even work. It only shows me that there is changes going on in the carboy. $140 isn't worth what I already know

I don’t own one so I don’t have any experience, but from what I’ve heard people are mostly using them to determine that it’s either going or done, then still taking a hydrometer reading at the end.

 

[Wrathchild]

I don’t own one so I don’t have any experience, but from what I’ve heard people are mostly using them to determine that it’s either going or done, then still taking a hydrometer reading at the end.

That to me isn't worth $140 if its not accurate. Ill give it another try and maybe contact tilt and see if there is something I can do to better calibrate it but if not, ill get my money back and buy something else, like another carboy and brew more!

 

[dmtaylor]

Windsor is a good yeast, but it is both the fastest and just about the lowest attenuator that exists. Final gravity will be reached within 40 hours, and will be no lower than about 1.021 for your batch, with an attenuation of 61% average. Your Tilt is reading in the right ballpark, might be a little off but should be pretty close. Your 1.011 goal is in fact impossible with this yeast unless you try something stupid like adding enzymes (obviously I am biased against doing so).

As for a diacetyl rest, with ales like this don’t even worry about it. Not a consideration at this temperature. If any is produced, the yeast will eat it within a few more days most likely, and you really shouldn’t need to worry about it at all.

 

[Wrathchild]

Windsor is a good yeast, but it is both the fastest and just about the lowest attenuator that exists. Final gravity will be reached within 40 hours, and will be no lower than about 1.021 for your batch, with an attenuation of 61% average. Your Tilt is reading in the right ballpark, might be a little off but should be pretty close. Your 1.011 goal is in fact impossible with this yeast unless you try something stupid like adding enzymes (obviously I am biased against doing so).

As for a diacetyl rest, with ales like this don’t even worry about it. Not a consideration at this temperature. If any is produced, the yeast will eat it within a few more days most likely, and you really shouldn’t need to worry about it at all.

If this is my Fg, won't it be super sweet? I was a sucker and bought "beer" enzymes but when I got the package the directions were for must, im not making wine or mead so ive read i got duped into buying yet another unnecessary product. I almost did a backflip when this brew visually was almost done in a day. Never used this yeast before but its all getting wrote down in my notes. Definitely wanted a lower fg then this. Tilt said 1.020 last night so it went down another point

 

[CascadesBrewer]

You could get a ~$20 seed starting or reptile cage heating mat. You'd just have to keep an eye on it without a controller.

I picked up this seedling mat and controller combo from Amazon for $26. Amazon.com : VIVOSUN 10"x20.75" Seedling Heat Mat and Digital Thermostat Combo Set MET Standard : Garden & Outdoor It has been working well for me. So now I have a chest freezer with an Inkbird (and a small heater) that I can use to keep beers at a controlled temp and I have this controller that I can use to keep beers above ambient temp.

 

[dmtaylor]

If this is my Fg, won't it be super sweet? I was a sucker and bought "beer" enzymes but when I got the package the directions were for must, im not making wine or mead so ive read i got duped into buying yet another unnecessary product. I almost did a backflip when this brew visually was almost done in a day. Never used this yeast before but its all getting wrote down in my notes. Definitely wanted a lower fg then this. Tilt said 1.020 last night so it went down another point

Give it another couple days just to be safe, but I expect fermentation to be complete by now. The beer will not taste nearly as sweet as the gravity would indicate. You might be pleasantly surprised. Just will have lower alcohol than you had probably intended. This yeast is actually very useful for making low alcohol beer.

Learn about yeast, they are funny little critters. You might find my yeast table handy to help select strains on future batches that are better suited to attaining your goals.

YEAST MASTER by David M Taylor Perma-Living

 

[Wrathchild]

Give it another couple days just to be safe, but I expect fermentation to be complete by now. The beer will not taste nearly as sweet as the gravity would indicate. You might be pleasantly surprised. Just will have lower alcohol than you had probably intended. This yeast is actually very useful for making low alcohol beer.

Learn about yeast, they are funny little critters. You might find my yeast table handy to help select strains on future batches that are better suited to attaining your goals.

YEAST MASTER by David M Taylor Perma-Living

Absolutely my friend! Im a baby at this hobby but I log every one of my mishaps and good turnouts so I can cross reference later when deciding. I got this idea from an all grain kit from Northern brewers and I decided to buy all the trimmings instead of the kit so I just stuck with the yeast they had in the kit. Never used it before but now I know. Thanks for all the super helpful information!

 

[Bobby_M]

That to me isn't worth $140 if its not accurate. Ill give it another try and maybe contact tilt and see if there is something I can do to better calibrate it but if not, ill get my money back and buy something else, like another carboy and brew more!

This is a perfect example of putting money in the wrong place. For $140 you can get a second hand fridge, an Inkbird 308 controller, and a heating pad and you can brew anything you want in any season.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

This is a perfect example of putting money in the wrong place. For $140 you can get a second hand fridge, an Inkbird 308 controller, and a heating pad and you can brew anything you want in any season.

100%

 

[madscientist451]

Windsor is a good yeast, but it is both the fastest and just about the lowest attenuator that exists. Final gravity will be reached within 40 hours, and will be no lower than about 1.021 for your batch, with an attenuation of 61% average.

Published information regarding attenuation of individual yeasts are "ballpark" estimates, your actual results may be quite different. So there's a chance the OP's beer will stop at 1.021, but it could go lower.
This is from the Lallemand webpage for the Windsor yeast:
Windsor does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units).
Maltotriose is present in wort in an average 10-15% of all malt worts. The result will be fuller body and residual sweetness in beer. Be advised to adjust mash temperatures according to desired result.
Fermentation rate, fermentation time and degree of attenuation are dependent on inoculation density, yeast handling, fermentation temperature and nutritional quality of the wort.

 

[dmtaylor]

Published information regarding attenuation of individual yeasts are "ballpark" estimates, your actual results may be quite different. So there's a chance the OP's beer will stop at 1.021, but it could go lower.

Indeed. The 61% is MY ACTUAL results, and is an average over several batches of pretty standard worts. As always, YMMV.

 

[Wrathchild]

Indeed. The 61% is MY ACTUAL results, and is an average over several batches of pretty standard worts. As always, YMMV.

It went to 1.020 according to my tilt. Temp dropped to 71 so im trying to bring it up a couple degrees but not having much luck with that. Im just gonna let it ride and see what I turns into. Now corn sugar will still prime it in my bottles correct?

 

[dmtaylor]

It went to 1.020 according to my tilt. Temp dropped to 71 so im trying to bring it up a couple degrees but not having much luck with that. Im just gonna let it ride and see what I turns into. Now corn sugar will still prime it in my bottles correct?

Absolutely. Or just use table sugar, as I’ve been doing for the past 20 years. Works just as well, and probably cheaper and always on hand in the kitchen. And you only need 85% as much because it’s a little “stronger “.

 

[Wrathchild]

Absolutely. Or just use table sugar, as I’ve been doing for the past 20 years. Works just as well, and probably cheaper and always on hand in the kitchen. And you only need 85% as much because it’s a little “stronger “.

Cool good to know cause corn sugar seems like the same thing just powered. Ill try it! I used honey one time on one bottle and I over did it