HERMS Woes.. First 10 gallon batch

[Schlomo]

So i just did my first 10 gallon batch on my newly completed HERMS system.

I did not know, however, that I needed to tune my PID. This caused problems, as you can probably imagine.

So as I was brewing, my mash went from (target) 154 UP to 162, and then DOWN all the way to 140, until i read online that I needed to tune my PID. I found someone elses P, I, and D settings and put them in my system and they actually work great because after that i was able to hold 154 perfectly.

Problem is, I probably mashed for 45 minutes before I hit 154. I mashed a total of close to one and a half hours because I wasnt sure if it would help or not.

Funny thing is that I hit 91% efficiency. I'm thinking that with the high and low termperature difference I may have converted some sugars that the yeast will not be able to eat, and that being the reason my OG was so high.

Anyone have any comments? I'm hoping the beer turns out ok, it was my first 10 gallon batch of an ESB.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I believe the appropriate response here is RDWHAHB

Definitely run an auto-tune on your system before you brew the next batch.

Also, what were you brewing? What was your grain bill / volumes / did you mash in at a specific temp / how did you sparge / what was the OG pre boil? Maybe it won't be exactly what you were expecting, but I can almost guarantee you that beer will come out of the fermenter in a few weeks.


-Kevin

 

[Schlomo]

I believe the appropriate response here is RDWHAHB

Definitely run an auto-tune on your system before you brew the next batch.

Also, what were you brewing? What was your grain bill / volumes / did you mash in at a specific temp / how did you sparge / what was the OG pre boil? Maybe it won't be exactly what you were expecting, but I can almost guarantee you that beer will come out of the fermenter in a few weeks.


-Kevin

I'm not worried at all, just wondered if anyone could chime in on how the changes in temp could affect the taste at the end. Only time will tell i guess.

Expected OG (75%) was 1.049 at 11 gallons into the fermenters. I hit 1.058 at 11 gallons, which according to beersmith is 91% efficiency.

I was brewing an ESB. Grain bill was 17.5 lbs of Maris otter, and 1 lb crystal 20l. Pre boil was about 12-12.5 gallons, i think my pre boil gravity was around 1.053 - 1.055, i cant remember. I fly sparged with 8.5 gallons of water with the wort coming out of my tun at 170*F, so sparge water was a little higher. I did a mash out over 10 minutes taking 154 up to 168 and leaving at 10 minutes. Mash out definatly took longer than expected to get to temp, but I only have 1 2000w element in my HLT.

Im pretty excited for this one. I think i under pitched though, so i'm going to buy another pack of dry yeast and pitch it when I get home.

I split into 2, 6 gallon fermenters and split one pack of dry s-04 into the two (All I had, wasnt thinking when I bought my grains).

We'll see i guess!

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I don't think you'll have much to worry about. Maybe a few points high on your FG due to the higher mash temp, but nothing to be stressed about. Sounds like a pretty healthy recipe and results. Did you make a starter on the yeast or just direct pitched the dry? A second packet couldn't hurt things, that's for sure!

Let us know how it turns out!

 

[Schlomo]

I don't think you'll have much to worry about. Maybe a few points high on your FG due to the higher mash temp, but nothing to be stressed about. Sounds like a pretty healthy recipe and results. Did you make a starter on the yeast or just direct pitched the dry? A second packet couldn't hurt things, that's for sure!

Let us know how it turns out!

No starter, but i got a second pack to pitch when i get home from work.

3 bucks is not much to ensure it ferments easily

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

True! Moving to a starter is a great way to go - gives your yeast time to get into the swing of things and replicate, so they can start turning your wort into beer quickly and overwhelm any other potential nasty yeast that found its way into the brew. Plus, I've found that making the starter a few days before I brew is a good way to get into the mind-set for brewing, lets the SWMBO know that brewing is DEFINITELY happening, and basically forces me into brewing vs. getting distracted with any of the hundred other tasks / chores / activities that I might spend my time on. Basically a "I gotta brew or the yeast is going to go bad..." type thing, even if not 100% accurate!

 

[Schlomo]

True! Moving to a starter is a great way to go - gives your yeast time to get into the swing of things and replicate, so they can start turning your wort into beer quickly and overwhelm any other potential nasty yeast that found its way into the brew. Plus, I've found that making the starter a few days before I brew is a good way to get into the mind-set for brewing, lets the SWMBO know that brewing is DEFINITELY happening, and basically forces me into brewing vs. getting distracted with any of the hundred other tasks / chores / activities that I might spend my time on. Basically a "I gotta brew or the yeast is going to go bad..." type thing, even if not 100% accurate!

Do you do a starter even if its dry yeast? The recipe i used called for dry yeast, im sure others would work, but i've heard a starter isnt the best for dry yeast.. i've never tried it though although i have a stir plat and flask and all that.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I've only ever used liquid yeast. Ignore everything I wrote... a quick search shows me that at most you should rehydrate the yeast, but that starters are in no way required. So... belay my last. Definitely 2 packets for a 10 gallon batch though.

 

[kombat]

As mentioned, you rehydrate dry yeast, but no starter.

Am I reading that you only pitched one packet of dry yeast for a 10-gallon batch, and that you direct-pitched it without rehydrating it? If that's accurate, then you likely underpitched by a large margin (you only pitched 25% of the yeast cells you should have pitched). If you pitched dry, then roughly half the yeast cells would have died initially. Also, one packet is enough for a 5 gallon batch, so you should have pitched 2 right from the start. So instead of having the minimum 200 billion cells most calculators would call for, you pitched 50 billion (half a pack).

 

[Schlomo]

As mentioned, you rehydrate dry yeast, but no starter.

Am I reading that you only pitched one packet of dry yeast for a 10-gallon batch, and that you direct-pitched it without rehydrating it? If that's accurate, then you likely underpitched by a large margin (you only pitched 25% of the yeast cells you should have pitched). If you pitched dry, then roughly half the yeast cells would have died initially. Also, one packet is enough for a 5 gallon batch, so you should have pitched 2 right from the start. So instead of having the minimum 200 billion cells most calculators would call for, you pitched 50 billion (half a pack).

I did not rehydrate, and i believe while some suggest rehydrating to be good, there are others who say it can be bad as well.

That being said, i only pitched 1 for 10 gallons at the start because that is all I had on hand. I picked up another pack at the LHBS the day after i brewed and pitched that once I got home.

Warning:

I'm not worried about the whole rehydrating thing, I've done about 30 brews now (and I know that is not much compared to many others on HBT) and have tried both rehydrating and not and have seen no difference when using dry yeast. My fermentations always kick off quickly and are a good controlled fermentation. Also I ALWAYS make a starter when not using dry yeast.

I could be wrong, but that is just my experience, choice, and opinion on the whole rehydration topic.

When I got home yesterday, fermentation was going strong and had a nice healthy krausen formed. I'm looking forward to this beer!

Few more weeks.. must.. wait... till... done.....

 

[kombat]

I did not rehydrate, and i believe while some suggest rehydrating to be good, there are others who say it can be bad as well.

There are those who say 9/11 was an inside job, too. Doesn't mean their opinion is just as valid as mine.

There's no need to speculate and debate it - the issue has been thoroughly researched and the facts are conclusive. Pitching dry yeast directly into wort kills roughly half the cells, because they're unable to regulate the rate at which the wort permeates the cell membranes.

There's an authoritative book on the topic, Yeast, by brewing experts Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff, which goes into more detail than I'm capable of regurgitating here, but the evidence is conclusive: Properly rehydrating dry yeast results in dramatically higher cell viability, which results in a higher pitching rate, less-stressed yeast, and correspondingly, fewer off-flavours in the resulting beer.

I could be wrong, but that is just my experience, choice, and opinion on the whole rehydration topic.

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk on the issue, but this isn't the same as the whole "To Secondary or not?" issue - this one's got a conclusive answer. Rehydration is indisputably superior.

If you're going to pitch dry, go ahead, just know that you're only pitching half the cells you should be, and make the necessary adjustment (such as pitching 2 packs instead of 1). Otherwise, you're chronically underpitching.

 

[Schlomo]

There are those who say 9/11 was an inside job, too. Doesn't mean their opinion is just as valid as mine.

There's no need to speculate and debate it - the issue has been thoroughly researched and the facts are conclusive. Pitching dry yeast directly into wort kills roughly half the cells, because they're unable to regulate the rate at which the wort permeates the cell membranes.

There's an authoritative book on the topic, Yeast, by brewing experts Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff, which goes into more detail than I'm capable of regurgitating here, but the evidence is conclusive: Properly rehydrating dry yeast results in dramatically higher cell viability, which results in a higher pitching rate, less-stressed yeast, and correspondingly, fewer off-flavours in the resulting beer.


Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk on the issue, but this isn't the same as the whole "To Secondary or not?" issue - this one's got a conclusive answer. Rehydration is indisputably superior.

If you're going to pitch dry, go ahead, just know that you're only pitching half the cells you should be, and make the necessary adjustment (such as pitching 2 packs instead of 1). Otherwise, you're chronically underpitching.

Valid points. I guess i'll have to rehydrate in the future, I was not aware of the evidence behind rehydrating vs not.

Thanks for the input, i'm always trying to make better beer, and if this is one way to relieve stress on the yeast, i'll do it.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

A mature discussion of a counter-opinion refuting previous posts? And no name-calling or butt-hurtness? This may be an internet first!

post on the side track we've taken on this thread...