Half-fermented barleywine

[BasementAle]

So I brewed my first barleywine from my own recipe (Okay, I had a bunch of miscellaneous grain lying around):

10lbs American 2-row
11oz roasted melanoidin
2.7oz patent
5.3oz Dingemans Special B
10.7oz WyermannnDk Munich
5.8oz Muntons Chocolate malt
AND
7 lbs of amber LME.
OG=1.116, mashed at 151-2 degrees.


Long story short, airlock activity seemed WAAAYYYYY too short — even with me swirling the carboy every day and adding a pack of champagne yeast once the airlock had slowed (about 6 days in) and even added a beano after a month — neither did diddly. Two months later I bottle w/o first checking the SG. After slapping my forehead I pull a sample and check the gravity (1.061, priming sugar and all). And all that AFTER it's in the bottles.

So the fatal errors (as I see them) are:

1) didn't make a starter with the wyeast 1056
2) probably mashed too high, especially given the LME
3) LME...didn't realize it didn't like fermenting (thus the beano)
4) didn't pitch enough champagne yeast and probably didn't pitch it soon enough
5) didn't take gravity readings BEFORE adding priming sugar
6) bottled an unacceptably high OG

My thought is to dump this out of the bottles onto a champagne starter and (hopefully) finish it off. If that doesn't get it, add more beano? Thoughts?

 

[jungatheart]

I bottled an Imperial Stout, 1.055, after trying everything to get it down more.

Tastes good and no over carbonation but as a result of it being so high I made some changes in my brewing: Big starter, pure oxygen before pitch, careful temperature control, and adding yeast nutrients to the wort.

I really like the beer as it is though. I used DME and think it has unfermentables in it that won't ferment out. Next time I'll use more sugar and less DME to see if that works any better.

Have you tasted it?

 

[BasementAle]

Yes, I tasted it and the alcohol content seems to offset some of the sweetness. But I would still refer to this as a "dessert beer " (which is not exactly what I was going for)

 

[jungatheart]

I just took a hydrometer from the RIS I'd made changes to and it's much drier and alcoholic.
SG was 1.125 and after 7 days it's down to 1.022 (about 14%) Alcohol taste is off putting but I hope it'll mellow out.

I think what did it was: Using two packs of Safale -05 rehydrated and adding pure oxygen to the wort before pitching. I can't believe the difference between beers with the same ingredients.

I also used some Amylase enzyme in the fermenter with the yeast nutrients. Have you tried that? Please let me know how it worked out since we seem to have the same problem.

 

[BasementAle]

My understanding is that beano = amylase enzyme (sorta). That tell me that this can make your beer SUPER dry, so I'm going to try a super champagne starter w/nutrient first.

 

[kontrol]

So I brewed my first barleywine from my own recipe (Okay, I had a bunch of miscellaneous grain lying around):

10lbs American 2-row
11oz roasted melanoidin
2.7oz patent
5.3oz Dingemans Special B
10.7oz WyermannnDk Munich
5.8oz Muntons Chocolate malt
AND
7 lbs of amber LME.
OG=1.116, mashed at 151-2 degrees.


Long story short, airlock activity seemed WAAAYYYYY too short — even with me swirling the carboy every day and adding a pack of champagne yeast once the airlock had slowed (about 6 days in) and even added a beano after a month — neither did diddly. Two months later I bottle w/o first checking the SG. After slapping my forehead I pull a sample and check the gravity (1.061, priming sugar and all). And all that AFTER it's in the bottles.

So the fatal errors (as I see them) are:

1) didn't make a starter with the wyeast 1056
2) probably mashed too high, especially given the LME
3) LME...didn't realize it didn't like fermenting (thus the beano)
4) didn't pitch enough champagne yeast and probably didn't pitch it soon enough
5) didn't take gravity readings BEFORE adding priming sugar
6) bottled an unacceptably high OG

My thought is to dump this out of the bottles onto a champagne starter and (hopefully) finish it off. If that doesn't get it, add more beano? Thoughts?

LME doesn't like fermenting? I doubt it... many people do extract only beer with good result and no problem. Check the company website of your LME to see what it's made up from. Briess is :

CARBOHYDRATE PROFILE (100g as-is) (Dry Basis)
Glucose................................................10 .................. 13%
Maltose.................................................37 .................. 45%
Maltotriose............................................11 .................. 14%
Higher Saccharides..............................14 .................. 19%

Your mashing temperature looks fine.

Your two major problem in this case is you didn't make a starter, and your wort aeration process. And the first X the second gave you the result you should have expected in this case.

First shaking the carboy for a O.G this high doen't do anything. The oxygen dissolution in the wort when shaking the carboy at this O.G (Over 1.085 IIRC) is very low. The only way to get the good amount of oxygen in this case if pure O2 and nothing else will work. The yeast reproduction is aerobic (With oxygen). When oxygen is gone it start producing alcohol and CO2. The yeast cell also undergo other changes during this period which impact the fermentation.

Since you didn't make a starter you're way off the require cell count to achieve a good attenuation. And since there is not enough oxygen, it couldn't reproduce enough to compensate the lack of starter. Yeast can consume the oxygen level in the wort in as short as 30 minutes.

The amylase enzyme is responsible for the breakdown of complex sugar to simpler sugar. In your case it doesn't seems like you had much complex sugar, if your mashing was complete of course (All starch break down). If you had an important amount of crystal or mashed at at higher temperature, it could have helped. But in this case it won't help your fermentation since the yeast is not healthy enough to ferment.

 

[dcp27]

I'd ferment a smaller beer with S-05/1056/001 (or 530/3787) and empty the bottles onto that. while the beano (alpha galactoid or something like that, basically alpha amylase on steroids) should break down the sugar enough that champagne yeast could consume it, I would forgo adding more beano & stick with ale yeast.

 

[BasementAle]

Just to clarify, I'm not blaming the LME on my woes. I just thought it might be a contributing factor based on some posts about extracts added at the beginning of the boil (which I did) not fermenting out all the way. Had I known this I would have treated the LME differently.

I aint mad at it - my favorite doppelbock was an extract brew

 

[kontrol]

Here's what you could try. Be advised that I never tried that method. It's based on my knowledge/comprehension of the fermentation (which can contains errors) but this is what I would try if I was in the same position as you are. It's not like you have many options anyway .

Buy a yeast that is highly tolerant to alcohol. Try to take 1 that has a clean profile since this method will produce many esters. But prioritize the alcohol tolerance first.

Make a starter with the yeast and step it until you have the good cell count for a 1.061 wort.

The starter must be pitched in the wort at high krausen, when the yeast is most active. This will reduce the lag time when you pitch and give the yeast a little bit more chances to do their job. I encourage you to read on how to pitch at high krausen if you don't know what it is.

30 minutes before you pitch the starter in the wort, put the tiniest drop of olive oil you can in your starter. The olive oil contains something (unsaturated fatty acids) the yeast produce with the oxygen. You won't need to aerate your wort, and dont.

Also in your wort throw about 1/4 pound of glucose and 1/2 tea spoon of yeast nutrient. Since your wort partially fermented these might be lacking in your wort and are essential for the yeast.

You can try to ferment it a higher temperatures. 74-75f Yeast are more active at higher temperature, but produce more flavor compounds.

Put the lid on and pray.

 

[sweetcell]

the important points have already been covered - make a big starter (use mrmalty.com to figure out how big), just shaking is insufficient for oxygenation, etc. how, regarding:

4) didn't pitch enough champagne yeast and probably didn't pitch it soon enough

you need to be careful when using champagne yeast. it's a "killer yeast" that will kill off the brewers yeast (saccharomyces). it doesn't contribute the same flavors as sacc, in fact people use champagne yeast in wine because it is so neutral. and finally champagne yeast can't digest maltose and maltotriose. they can only consume simple sugars. so if you add the champagne yeast too soon you'll kill off the sacc before they has finished all the maltose and maltotriose, and those will be left behind... so the beer will remain sweet.

i would suggest that you hold off on adding champagne yeast until the sacc has finished its work. champagne yeast has a higher alcohol tolerance than sacc so it can clean up whatever the conked out sacc left behind. it's also useful to ensure fast bottle carbonation.

 

[2bluewagons]

Other than what has already been mentioned, I would have suggested that you swap out some of your fermentables with simple sugar. Expecting a 1.115 beer to get down below 1.030 was asking a lot to begin with, I think. And keep your champagne yeast for cider or, oh I don't know..sparkling white wine! You're making beer here!:rockin:

And there is something to the LME avoidance. It goes stale (i.e. less fermentable) faster than DME. Also, most extracts are prepared with a mash temp on the higher side of the scale so that for a beer with a typical OG of 1.040-1.050 it will finish in the proper range, hence the "plenty of extract beers" made successfully. But for a BW, you want to mash low, 149 or so.

 

[BasementAle]

Thanks for all of your input. I was thinking Nottingham may avoid a lot of the champagne yeast issues, and I'm seeing some are getting it to handle nearly 12%abv. If I can get it rolling again with Notti, does anyone see a problem with finishing it off with champagne? And if the champagne is a go, pitch it rehydrated or make another starter?

 

[05m50dan]

Your best bet, if its an option, is go to your local craft brewery/brew pub and ask for a pitch of yeast. Most breweries work with Homebrewers and usually will be happy to give you a pitch of yeast. Bring a pre- sanitized container, about 16oz or more, and preferably not glass. It may take a while to get some yeast depending on how busy they are, but it will be worth it. You'll get a large pitch (got a 5 gallon batch) of actively fermenting yeast that should be ideal for your problem. I wouldn't personally use the champagne yeast. You want a very large pitch of actively fermenting yeast. If you can't get a pitch from a local brewery, then I would suggest making another batch of beer with a SG around 1.040-1.048(pale ale, best bitter, etc.), use Nottingham yeast, yeast nutrient, yeast energizer and oxygenate if you can. It'll finish off in about 4-6 days, then track this beer off the yeast cake and track the barleywine on top of the whole yeast cake. Then shake it up some to distribute the yeast throughout. Nottingham yeast is a beast, but you need a large pitch of active cells to rescue this batch.

 

[sweetcell]

It's too late for brew pub yeast or Nottingham. He's got champagne yeast in there. It will kill any brewers yeast before they get the job done.