GFCI test button not working? - SPA Panel

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kpr121

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I recently moved from a house with 4 wire (Hot, Hot, Neutral, Ground) 240v to a house that has 3 wire (Hot, Hot, Neutral) 220V electric outlet. So I needed to rewire my SPA Panel and get a matching Power Cord for the new outlet. I rewired according to PJ’s diagram for 3 to 4 wire service. My SPA panel worked great at the old house all the way until the last week we moved, but now the GFCI test button is not working in the new setup. What are the odds that the breaker is no longer working correctly? How can I test it? I tried a couple other configurations as well (removing the neutral to ground bus jumper, removing the pigtail from breaker to neutral bus) and the test button just wont work. Voltmeter is sensing power to the hots in the load outlet but I didnt plug in my control panel to see if it was working, for fear that I was going to fry it.

I was thinking about just going to HD and buying the same SPA panel, swapping the breakers, and seeing if a new breaker works. If it did then I would just be out $50 and have an extra SPA box. That would keep me from having to rewire everything and cut hole(s) in the new SPA panel until I knew that was the problem. From what I understand the breakers themselves are usually more expensive than the entire SPA panel.

My wiring and connections are all good, I double and triple checked them.

power-panel-6c.jpg
 
Some GFCI's need a neutral connection for the test button to work, some don't. I would try moving the white pigtail lead to the grounding bar and see if that helps. You might have to live without a test button.
 
Your spa panel looks right to me so I'd check upstream.

The test button just shorts the line through a resister to the pig tail neutral so I'd suspect that's where your issue lies.

Is the neutral at the dryer plug connected to the neutral bus in your main breaker box? Check L1-N and L2-N voltage with a meter at your main breaker box, at the dryer plug, and at your spa panel.

This is the best link I've ever seen on GFCIs. I think everyone should read and understand this about a GFCI: http://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/NEMA-GFCI-2012-Field-Representative-Presentation.pdf
 
schematix said:
Your spa panel looks right to me so I'd check upstream.

The test button just shorts the line through a resister to the pig tail neutral so I'd suspect that's where your issue lies.

Is the neutral at the dryer plug connected to the neutral bus in your main breaker box? Check L1-N and L2-N voltage with a meter at your main breaker box, at the dryer plug, and at your spa panel.

This is the best link I've ever seen on GFCIs. I think everyone should read and understand this about a GFCI: http://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/NEMA-GFCI-2012-Field-Representative-Presentation.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, that is a great slideshow.

Just want to be clear, when you say L1-N and L2-N do you mean L1-H (hot) and L2-N (neutral)?
 
I have a 3 wire setup.The white wire that came prewired needs to be moved to the ground bar or the GFCI wont work.

I just pulled the cover off mine,theres no jumper to ground either.
 
kpr121 said:
Thanks for the link, that is a great slideshow.

Just want to be clear, when you say L1-N and L2-N do you mean L1-H (hot) and L2-N (neutral)?
Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion. I should have written that more carefully.

I mean L1 (hot) to Neutral, and L2 (the other hot) to Neutral. You want to see approx 120V from each hot to neutral, and approx 240V hot to hot.

Check those 3 voltages at the 3 places... the main breaker box, the dryer plug, and the spa panel. If they're all ~120V Line to Neutral, and ~240V Line to Line, then I'd suspect the GFCI.
 
JONNYROTTEN said:
I have a 3 wire setup.The white wire that came prewired needs to be moved to the ground bar or the GFCI wont work.

I just pulled the cover off mine,theres no jumper to ground either.
Click to expand...

Johnny, not sure I am following that. Can you explain more or maybe include a picture? Are you saying to disconnect the neutral wire at the breaker itself and attach to ground? Or disconnect it at the neutral bar and attach it to ground?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a diagram or heard it explained that way before.
 
Mines wired like this:

2 hots going to control box get mounted to the breaker itself,ground to ground bar.
2 hots going to dryer outlet get mounted on posts under/next to breaker,ground to ground bar.
White wire gets moved to ground bar.Nothing connected to the bar that originally had the white wire prewired to.
This is for 3 wire in 3 wire out.
 
kpr121 said:
Johnny, not sure I am following that. Can you explain more or maybe include a picture? Are you saying to disconnect the neutral wire at the breaker itself and attach to ground? Or disconnect it at the neutral bar and attach it to ground?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a diagram or heard it explained that way before.
Click to expand...
Disconnect from the bar not the breaker.I called spa panel manufacturer before hooking mine up,so I know its correct.

On a 3 wire setup the ground becomes a 120 line.There is no neutral,GFCI only runs on 120.This is the reason for moving the white wire to the ground bar.The ground is really a 120 bar.The white wire IS the GFCI wire.With no power going to it,it wont work.
If you looked inside your main panel,youd see that your black wire goes to the breaker and the white and ground are on the same bar.The same thing your doing on your spa panel.white and ground are on the same bar.
 
JONNYROTTEN said:
Mines wired like this:

2 hots going to control box get mounted to the breaker itself,ground to ground bar.
2 hots going to dryer outlet get mounted on posts under/next to breaker,ground to ground bar.
White wire gets moved to ground bar.Nothing connected to the bar that originally had the white wire prewired to.
This is for 3 wire in 3 wire out.
Click to expand...

Gotcha, that clears it up. I have been debating on whether to just abandon the 3 to 4 wire idea (I've seen lots of animosity on both sides of that debate) and rewire my CP so it can take a separate 120V input. Your description will help me if I decide to go that route.

Thanks
 
Is your neutral bar wired to your ground bar? I see you drew a line but i'm not sure if those are isolated from each other or not.... you can't make a 4-wire out of a 3-wire, although you can get close enough most of the time by tying ground and neutral together, as long as that connection is already made inside your main breaker box (which it should be).
 
kpr121 said:
Gotcha, that clears it up. I have been debating on whether to just abandon the 3 to 4 wire idea (I've seen lots of animosity on both sides of that debate) and rewire my CP so it can take a separate 120V input. Your description will help me if I decide to go that route.

Thanks
Click to expand...

If it were me and the dryer wiring was easily accessible, i'd rewrite from the breaker box to the plug and make it a 4-wire. Done.
 
schematix said:
Is your neutral bar wired to your ground bar? I see you drew a line but i'm not sure if those are isolated from each other or not.... you can't make a 4-wire out of a 3-wire, although you can get close enough most of the time by tying ground and neutral together, as long as that connection is already made inside your main breaker box (which it should be).
Click to expand...

Yes neutral is wired to the ground bar from the neutral bar. And neutral and ground are tied together at the main breaker box.

schematix said:
If it were me and the dryer wiring was easily accessible, i'd rewrite from the breaker box to the plug and make it a 4-wire. Done.
Click to expand...

Yeah, a part of me really wants to just run a new four wire line to the brewery from the breaker box. But brewery and main panel are in far opposite corners of basement, of which 80% is finished (drop ceiling so not terrible but would not be a single day job for DIYer). And I’d also probably end up going 6/3 for 50 amp circuit…. then upgrading my control panel for two element firing… then going to 1 bbl batches…. and eventually quitting my job and starting a microbrewery. Yea sounds like a dream but not a good path to go down with a new house mortgage payment and kids.
 
Is the spa panel the same brand as your main breaker box? If so, you might can put the GFCI in your main panel where there's a neutral available -- and no need to run another wire.
 
kpr121 said:
Yes neutral is wired to the ground bar from the neutral bar. And neutral and ground are tied together at the main breaker box.



Yeah, a part of me really wants to just run a new four wire line to the brewery from the breaker box. But brewery and main panel are in far opposite corners of basement, of which 80% is finished (drop ceiling so not terrible but would not be a single day job for DIYer). And I’d also probably end up going 6/3 for 50 amp circuit…. then upgrading my control panel for two element firing… then going to 1 bbl batches…. and eventually quitting my job and starting a microbrewery. Yea sounds like a dream but not a good path to go down with a new house mortgage payment and kids.
Click to expand...
I ran a basic six FT dryer line from the Spa panel to the dryer.Than ran a 3 ft line coming out of the spa panel with an outlet on the end.( all mounted on a header near the dryer)On brew day I plug a 25 ft 10/3 extention cord into that outlet and brew upstairs in my kitchen instead of my cold scary basement.After brew day I unplug and roll up extention cord like it never happened,works like a charm
 
z-bob said:
Is the spa panel the same brand as your main breaker box? If so, you might can put the GFCI in your main panel where there's a neutral available -- and no need to run another wire.
Click to expand...

No not same brand. I'm not sure I understand how that would eliminate me running another wire.... I would still only have three wires at the dryer outlet to work with. Plus the SPA panel breaker is 50amps and the main panel breaker is 30 amps and the line is 10 awg... no bueno.
 
JONNYROTTEN said:
...On a 3 wire setup the ground becomes a 120 line.There is no neutral,GFCI only runs on 120.This is the reason for moving the white wire to the ground bar.The ground is really a 120 bar.The white wire IS the GFCI wire.With no power going to it,it wont work.....
Click to expand...
???
The primary effect of converting a 3-wire 240VAC, to a 4-wire 120/240VAC using a GFCI panel is the ground and neutral will use the same conductor between the main panel and the spa panel.

The wiring diagram posted by the OP, if followed, is correct, imo. If the test button is failing to trip the breaker, either the breaker has failed, the ground/neutral conductor is not attached to the ground (or neutral) bar in the main panel, or the hot conductors are not connected to a breaker that is switched ON.

OP: Have you tested that Hot to Neutral/Ground in the spa panel is 120VAC?
 
schematix said:
This is what I'd do.

Neutral is NOT Ground except in the main panel.
Click to expand...

So, only run a new ground wire? That might be doable.

Sorry this has seemed to have spun off into two separate discussions. One on the reasons the GFCI test doesnt work and one on 3 wire vs 4 wire 220V line. I appreciate the input in both areas!
 
raouliii said:
???
The primary effect of converting a 3-wire 240VAC, to a 4-wire 120/240VAC using a GFCI panel is the ground and neutral use the same conductor between the main panel and the spa panel.

The wiring diagram posted by the OP, if followed, is correct, imo. If the test button is failing to trip the breaker, either the breaker has failed, the ground/neutral conductor is not attached to the ground (or neutral) bar in the main panel, or the hot conductors are not connected to a breaker that is switched ON.

OP: Have you tested that Hot to Neutral/Ground in the spa panel is 120VAC?
Click to expand...

No, havent checked with a volt meter yet. Will do tonight. I did verify that the 'hot' lines are hot (at dryer outlet, at breaker, and at control panel outlet) using one of those non-contact voltage testers, but didnt go any further than that.
 
I really like that diagram in post #19. The grounding wire does not have to be run with the current-carrying wires, and it can be a smaller size (I would use 12 ga copper THHN)
 
Yes. New ground wire and don't tie ground and neutral together in the spa panel. That's for safety.

As far as the GFCI test not working, I'm still curious on your voltage checks.

Another way you could test would be to move the brewery panel brewery neutral off the GFCI and land it on the neutral bus, turn on your panel and enable a 120V device. It should kick out immediately. If it doesn't then you definitely need a new GFCI.
 
How illegal or wrong is it to tap into ground somewhere closer than the main breaker, say at the 110v outlet that is four feet away?
 
raouliii said:
Are you sure it's correct? A picture is worth a thousand words. :)
Click to expand...

Tonight I will take a picture and post. I would absolutely love to get some other eyes on it.

I delayed posting on here but shouldnt have, you guys really are awesome for taking your time and offering your thoughts/insight to a complete stranger. Thank you!
 
If your cutting into ground lines, going 3 to 4 wire or running lines to the main that's over my pay grade.If your running 3 wire to 3 wire and follow post #10 it will work.Why,because that's how mine is and it works.
A quick test of the GFCI would be to disconnect everything in spa panel and connect the white wire from breaker to the bar it was originally connected to from the factory.Now its a brand new out of the box spa panel again.Run power in from dryer cord as I said into spa panel. LEAVE the gfci connected to the bar the way the panel came.I guarantee the GFCI wont work,theres no power going to it. Again the GFCI portion of the breaker needs power.NOW,connect the white GFCI wire to the ground bar in the spa panel,plug it in again and test.I will again "almost" guarantee it will work as it was working before.
 
IMO, the wiring looks good for a 3-wire to 4-wire GFCI sub-panel conversion.
Neutral bar and Ground bar jumpered, Neutral out line connected to GFCI, GFCI pigtail connected to Neutral/Gnd bar. As long as the voltages are correct on the gray, incoming leads, the gfci breaker should trip on test, if it's good.
Check the AC voltage between the gray wires: L1 to Neutral/Gnd, L2 to Neutral/Gnd and L1 to L2. Readings should be about 120, 120 and 240.
Check the output voltages as well.
You might also check AC voltage between the panel and an independent outlet ground. L1 to independent ground, L2 to independent ground, Neutral/Gnd to independent ground. Readings should be 120, 120, 0.
 
raouliii said:
IMO, the wiring looks good for a 3-wire to 4-wire GFCI sub-panel conversion.

Neutral bar and Ground bar jumpered, Neutral out line connected to GFCI, GFCI pigtail connected to Neutral/Gnd bar. As long as the voltages are correct on the gray, incoming leads, the gfci breaker should trip on test, if it's good.

Check the AC voltage between the gray wires: L1 to Neutral/Gnd, L2 to Neutral/Gnd and L1 to L2. Readings should be about 120, 120 and 240.

Check the output voltages as well.

You might also check AC voltage between the panel and an independent outlet ground. L1 to independent ground, L2 to independent ground, Neutral/Gnd to independent ground. Readings should be 120, 120, 0.
Click to expand...


Tested tonight. All exactly as you projected. Even went so far to plug in the control panel. Had power to all features, 220 and 110 with no issues. Then tried to push e stop button, and no reaction. Pretty certain I got a faulty gfci. Which is scary... I thought a faulty gfci would mean that it would trip frequently and or not allow power to be turned on (had one like this in kitchen, it would always kick randomly. Replaced and everything works fine).

Gonna run to hd tomorrow or Saturday and pick up another spa panel.
 
kpr121 said:
I thought a faulty gfci would mean that it would trip frequently and or not allow power to be turned on (had one like this in kitchen, it would always kick randomly. Replaced and everything works fine).
Click to expand...

That is the most common failure mode. However, what you've experienced is also possible and that's one of the reasons for the test button. You are supposed to test them every month to make sure they still work.

Some newer GFCI's perform a self test before they are reset so if it doesn't sense the ground fault it intentionally created, it won't latch.
 
schematix said:
That is the most common failure mode. However, what you've experienced is also possible and that's one of the reasons for the test button. You are supposed to test them every month to make sure they still work.

Some newer GFCI's perform a self test before they are reset so if it doesn't sense the ground fault it intentionally created, it won't latch.
Click to expand...

Incidentally, that is also why I would instruct anyone who builds the e-stop to trip the GFCI to test the e-stop before each brew session. An e-stop that doesn't stop is worse than useless. :)
 
I would even argue this PJ/theelectricbrewery e-stop is a terrible design from the start.

I'd either tie it in with the load contactor, or add one large contactor in front of everything.
 
Yea I was always pretty diligent with testing the gfci before brew days but now it's going to be a mandatory prep step. Makes me feel better that my setup ensures that the spa panel be within arms reach of the cp and normal brewing operation.... I always thought that estop was a waste of money anyhow....

Thanks again to everyone who chimed in. I'll be sure to let everyone know what the new spa panel brings. Here's hoping for that familiar clicking sound!

Wonder what that manufacturers warranty Is on that thing... Coulfnt have had more than 20 hrs with power on the gfci...
 
No problem. I am glad to be knowledgeable enough on the subject to have offered some help.

I think the "e-stop" (quotes intentional) used by some designs commonly used on this site are a hack at best, and dangerous at worst. The implementation relies on the proper functioning of the GFCI, and even then, there are other ways to accomplish the same thing for similar cost and much better reliability.
 
Finally got replacement spa panel in from Home Depot. Swapped out breaker into my old box, and....

GFCI TEST BUTTON WORKS!! I'm happy!

Although the crappy estop button wasn't working... But I don't think I care too much about that. Might just open up the cp just to take a look and see if it's something obvious though.

Hopefully plan to get a brew sesh in this weekend! Pumped!!!
 
Arghhh... now I'm getting a PID orAL error when I tried to fire up the eHLT this morning... completely unrelated to GFCI issue (99.9% sure), and I've had the issue before. Probably a connection on the RTD wire busted loose during the move (hopefully).

One day soon I will be brewing again. Hopefully its Saturday.
 

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