BrewnWKopperKat
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Advice was offered (best sumarized in reply#12, How to Brew, 4e has additional details)
- fresh ingredients
- distilled (or low mineral) water
- late additions of extract (to avoid concentrated boils).
extract taste...every time.
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True, I was being too flippant. But being specific, without knowing what the off-flavor is, we can't say if its due to oxidized extract, overly mineralized water, excessive maillard reactions, etc. Could be phenolics from something entirely different.
GrogNerd
mean old man
Local HBS sells their bulk LME out of a huge bottle, maybe 10? 12? -gallon suckers. Who knows how long that stuff has been sitting on the shelf?
They gave me a "finished & empty" one & I swear, I was able to get maybe 3 or 4 more lbs out of it (starters) cleaned it & gave it to a brew club buddy to ferment 10-gallon batches in
They gave me a "finished & empty" one & I swear, I was able to get maybe 3 or 4 more lbs out of it (starters) cleaned it & gave it to a brew club buddy to ferment 10-gallon batches in
I really do dislike LME as it is more difficult to work with than DME. Sure they're both extract, but the DME is easier to handle and incorporate in the kettle. DME doesn't immediately sink to the bottom like a rock and scorch, yeah it may clump or stick to the package, but nothing a bit of water won't fix. Thankfully both of my LHBS are always working through their DME/LME stock, so that isn't a problem for me. I can agree with previous posts here: use distilled or spring water(Kroger is what I use) and add most of your extract late, like last few minutes of the boil late. I add a pound or so at the beginning to help prevent over utilization of the bittering hops. Remember, it only takes a minute to get rid of the nasties in boiling water. Another good point is adding most of your DME/LME super late in the boil helps keep the color from being too dark as well(preventing Maillard reaction). But it is hard to say if your process isn't quite right, or something else is to blame? Fresh extract(late addition) and specialty grains along with distilled/spring water will help considerably. Have you been taking notes?
BrewnWKopperKat
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So there are flavors to describe extract twang / oxidized extract.
Are there flavors to describe various types of overmineralized beer? I came across a HBC 2007 presentation that discussed making an APA with "dark beer" mineral additions and doing the opposite. Didn't pay much attention to it at the time - so I'll find out how good my note taking has been recently.
And are the flavors to describe concentrated boil / excessive maillard reactions? HtB, 4e talks about unexpected flavors when doing concentrated boils, but IIRC, it doesn't give specific descriptors.
GrogNerd
mean old man
"Maillard reaction," at it's core, is the browning of food. toast your bread, fry some bacon & eggs. that's ALL Maillard reactions.
it's cooking proteins &/or sugars smell & flavor.
BURN any of them = "excessive" reactions
now I'm letting the BigHair know it's BfD tonight... Breakfast for Dinner
BrewnWKopperKat
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I was thinking more along the lines of troubleshooting list:
- if I taste licorice, it may be stale LME
- if I taste ________, it may be a concentrated boil
- if I taste ________, it may be over mineralized
Concentrated boil I think can lead to the beginnings of tasting smoky and burnt, with a bitterness different from hops alone. Like a homemade caramel or toffee candy that was left on the stove for a few minutes too long. And along with this comes a darker color than anticipated.
Slightly stale LME to me tastes like an odd combination of tart caramel and wet cardboard. When it gets very stale, like many YEARS old, it just tastes like garbage. The trouble with LME is that it begins to stale the moment it is finished being manufactured. So unless you can get it straight from the factory, it's already stale to some extent whenever you get it or use it.
Too much minerals can have various flavors, including metallic, iron, salty, and harsh aspirin-like or medicinal bitterness. Chew an aspirin or acetaminophen and you'll get an idea of what I mean.
In my view, the so-called extract "twang" often includes combinations of many or all of the above factors at the same time. The minerals can be avoided by using distilled or RO water. The LME problems can be minimized by using fresh DME and avoiding LME altogether. The concentrated boil.... just don't do it unless you're making a porter or stout in which case you really won't care anyway.
Stale LME is the same as oxidized LME, so all those flavors and aromas that could point to oxidation - cardboard, newsprint, weird sweetness, mustiness. A too concentrated boil can lead to burnt, caramel, or toffee aromas and flavors. Over mineralized waters can lead to mineral and metallic flavors.
Edit: I didn't see @dmtaylor 's post above before writing this - he does a much more thorough job of it.
When I first started brewing it was with lme and also dme/lme batches. I did notice mine had a slight astringency and metallic flavor. Switched from well water to spring water and boom it tasted better and friends noticed and asked what I had done differently. My well water has a few points of clear water iron so if I went straight well water I had metallic and if through the softener it had saltiness and astringency.
I also wonder the grain bills used for the various extracts? If say they are just some 2-Row, then never mind this question. But if they perhaps have some Crystal 40 in them, maybe it's that taste you just don't like? Comparing to an all-grain might not be an apples / apples thing.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Anything other than Extra Light extract does contain crystal malts and/or other specialty malts to give it color and flavor.
VikeMan
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I'm not sure which manufacture you mean, but with Briess, for example, it's sort of the opposite e.g. their "Pilsen Light" (their lightest extract) does contain carapils, but their darker "Pale Ale" is made just from pale ale malt.
BrewnWKopperKat
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A couple of years ago, in the Briess blog, they talked about the malts that they used in their extract products. I'll check my notes this evening for a link.
Also, @Steverush has an article in a recent (2020?) issue of Zymurgy magazine.
Steveruch
Well-Known Member
July/August 2020.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Here's the article (via "Internet Archives").
https://web.archive.org/web/20170922173308/http:/blog.brewingwithbriess.com/introducing-the-first-briess-single-malt-extracts/
Note that How to Brew 4e (2017) has some recipes that use Vienna DME. As of 2019, I haven't been able to find it.
Steveruch
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="BrewnWKopperKat, post: 9032227, member: 248101"
Note that How to Brew 4e (2017) has some recipes that use Vienna DME. As of 2019, I haven't been able to find it.
[/QUOTE]
It does seem to have disappeared. I've seen a couple of places still carrying vienna lme, but I have to wonder if it's also been discontinued and the cans are old.
Note that How to Brew 4e (2017) has some recipes that use Vienna DME. As of 2019, I haven't been able to find it.
[/QUOTE]
It does seem to have disappeared. I've seen a couple of places still carrying vienna lme, but I have to wonder if it's also been discontinued and the cans are old.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Allow me to revisit a "sub-topic" from earlier in this topic ...
... so that I can make a suggestion:
It can be hard to have a productive discussion about brewing with malt extract without including information about the type (liquid vs dry), brand (Briess, Muntons, ...), and style.
Just one example.
There's an old idea that adding a 'pinch' of table salt to an extract-based beer will improve the flavor. When I first read this, I tried it - no difference. About a year ago, I tried this with a different brand of DME - beer with from good to better. Check out the Bru'N Water spreadsheet notes and the book Brewing Engineering for more information on the mineral content of"extract".
... so that I can make a suggestion:
It can be hard to have a productive discussion about brewing with malt extract without including information about the type (liquid vs dry), brand (Briess, Muntons, ...), and style.
Just one example.
There's an old idea that adding a 'pinch' of table salt to an extract-based beer will improve the flavor. When I first read this, I tried it - no difference. About a year ago, I tried this with a different brand of DME - beer with from good to better. Check out the Bru'N Water spreadsheet notes and the book Brewing Engineering for more information on the mineral content of"extract".
BrewnWKopperKat
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BrewnWKopperKat
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With regards to color ...
... I think the discussion gets interesting when a couple of extract brewers get "read a newspaper through it" clear every single time.
One of the 2005 BBR podcasts (mentioned above) has a comment about how much wort darkens during the boil. FWIW, I've brewed a couple of small test batches, side by side, on the same day from the same bag of DME. Results seemed to match what I heard. When I get to "read a newspaper through it" clear beer every single time, I may revisit this "experiment".
ETA: Basic Brewing Video (June 20, 2006 - Playing with Hops): there's some commentary regarding hops and beer color.
... I think the discussion gets interesting when a couple of extract brewers get "read a newspaper through it" clear every single time.
One of the 2005 BBR podcasts (mentioned above) has a comment about how much wort darkens during the boil. FWIW, I've brewed a couple of small test batches, side by side, on the same day from the same bag of DME. Results seemed to match what I heard. When I get to "read a newspaper through it" clear beer every single time, I may revisit this "experiment".
ETA: Basic Brewing Video (June 20, 2006 - Playing with Hops): there's some commentary regarding hops and beer color.
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derekp83
Well-Known Member
To add to the list of extract experiences that are absolutely positive, last night I drank the first bottle of the Slam Dunkelweiss (recipe from the Homebrewer's Recipe Guide) that I bottled on December 12th. Fantastic beer! Dark in appearance, light-medium bodied, roasted, smoky clove flavor.
info and method:
There is no extract flavor to speak of. To the question of DME vs LME, while certain differences may be true, I made an all-extract LME wheat beer over the summer that was also great without any twang. Again, partial-boil with most extract added at the end. I think late addition is a very important factor when trying to pinpoint the origin of extract twang.
info and method:
- Extract (DME) and specialty grains
- Partial-boil
- Most extract was added after I shut off the kettle
- fermented in the high 50s/low 60s for 2-3 weeks
There is no extract flavor to speak of. To the question of DME vs LME, while certain differences may be true, I made an all-extract LME wheat beer over the summer that was also great without any twang. Again, partial-boil with most extract added at the end. I think late addition is a very important factor when trying to pinpoint the origin of extract twang.
I finished a kegged porter last night, it went a couple weeks without me really touching it. I want to say it had the extract twang that wasn't there weeks ago. It may just be the power of suggestion from reading this thread, but it made me really think that oxidation could be a huge part of this (in addition perhaps to grain bill of the extract, water minerals / lack of, and so on). I don't have EVA barrier lines (though they are ordered), and didn't do the world's best job kegging this beer either figuring it was a dark one and I didn't care. I'll be being a lot more careful next time to see if the flavors hang on longer.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Boil times? What are people using for boil times?
Over the last year or so, when I brew with DME, it's almost always 15 min or less, and mostly "one minute boil" batches or "hop steep for 20 minutes" batches. These are always full volume with all the DME on (or before) the start of the boil.
I've also seen topics where people do a full volume (water) boil with just half the wort.
Are you thinking oxidation of the beer (as opposed to, or in addition to, oxidized LME)?
Over the last year or so, when I brew with DME, it's almost always 15 min or less, and mostly "one minute boil" batches or "hop steep for 20 minutes" batches. These are always full volume with all the DME on (or before) the start of the boil.
So a part of the water (e.g. 2.5 gal) with part of the extract at the start of the boil, add remaining extract around flame-out, and "top off/up" to target volume (e. g. 5 gal)?
I've also seen topics where people do a full volume (water) boil with just half the wort.
Are you thinking oxidation of the beer (as opposed to, or in addition to, oxidized LME)?
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A mashup of both. I think my porter is, by now, oxidized. I also feel it has the "extract twang" to it. And am wondering if, as mentioned earlier, oxidized LME could indeed be a culprit here for the OP? (My porter was an all-grain and phenomenal for the first month or more)
I'd think boiling would sort of reset any twanginess but perhaps once oxidized it stays that way? I don't know.
Oxidation is forever. Can't fix it.
I'm starting to believe it. My EVABarrier tubing just got dropped off by FedEx this morning.
BrewnWKopperKat
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Going down a different path, there may be value in taking a "deep dive" into
to find out how these people are getting good results.
From a "how do I fix an existing process" perspective, there's also an extract based [...] "NEIPA What Went Wrong???" (link) thread over in /r/homebrewing that might be an interesting read.
to find out how these people are getting good results.
From a "how do I fix an existing process" perspective, there's also an extract based [...] "NEIPA What Went Wrong???" (link) thread over in /r/homebrewing that might be an interesting read.
derekp83
Well-Known Member
I believe I did a 45 minute boil (whatever it took to get to the right IBUs). If I have say a 3.3 lb container of LME, I'll put maybe 1 pound in the kettle after steeping specialty grains. The rest goes in when I kill the heat. This has an extra benefit of helping cool the wort.
In this case I did 3.25 or 3.5 gallon batch. I boiled 2.5 gallons, but by the end of the boil, after using my wort chiller, topped up with an additional gallon or so of cold tap water.
BrewnWKopperKat
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There are a couple of fall and winter competitions that I participated in (entry or steward, never both) over the years.
Currently, these competitions are talking about reduced entry count, new (simplified?) score sheets, and a longer time period when judging occurs (it's no longer a weekend event).
If I were "in it to win it" (and had solid techniques for handling oxygen ingress), I'd enter.
For those looking for feedback on off flavors, unless they have solid techniques for handling oxygen ingress, they may want to look elsewhere in 2021 for feedback.
As for me, there are a couple of new bottling techniques (being discussed in forums) that are looking promising. Once I have confirmed that these techniques are "solid" (for purposes of competitions), I may be "in it to win it" when it comes to competitions.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Is it possible that the extract taste is more noticeable to some than others? Having said that, I've had some all extract IPA's (from a local beer club brewer) that don't have the extract flavor, but my own beers made with LME, mostly using the rye or dark/stout versions definitely had an extract flavor. The companies that make LME make lots of it, so its being used somewhere and so it is likely that a decent beer can be made with LME. I don't believe water or brew day processes (except adding tons of hops) have much to do with the extract flavor, as others have said its all about how old the LME is. I've played with extract off and on over the years when I want to do a really quick brew but these days only use extract for starters or maybe making a Graff with home pressed apple juice. If I don't have time for an all grain brew, I just skip brewing.
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BrewnWKopperKat
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The New IPA, chapter 5, paragraph 3 has reference to a 1980 study on detecting flavors. From the book (not the study)
The next couple of paragraphs (in the book) have some additional information.
BrewnWKopperKat
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A couple of additional observations on color, especially if one is expecting 4 SRM from golden light DME/DME.
- Lovibond and SRM are not the same. There's a Lovibond to SRM conversion calculator here (link).
- Lovibond for DME goes up as OG goes up
- (link to pdf)
- wort darkens during the boil.
- one cannot measure SRM in the fermenter
, the site with the Lovibond to SRM converter also has- a hops comparison tool and
- a list of craft brewers that post clone recipes
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BrewnWKopperKat
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I'm of the opinion that, after one masters the "things you want get right when brewing with extract" (see #12), water (both the extract makers water and the home brewers water) matters.
I have brewed the same recipe twice on the same day, changing only the brand of DME (see #3 above). Both were good. Both tasted different. With some of these bottles, I experimented with adding CaCl and/or CaS04 in the glass. Each brand of DME tasted "best" with different amounts of added minerals.
I've suggested an "alternative" model to "water chemistry" in the past.
Water - three parts:
1) initial water quality,
2) adjustment for a good mash,
3) additions for flavor.
With all-grain brewing, see either "How to Build Your Water" (Bertus Brewing)" or Brewing Better Beer & Modern Homebrew Recipes. Similar in concept - although one uses "sour malt" the other uses phosphoric acid to adjust mash pH. (Side comment: each also solves the dark grains acidity problem differently).
For extract brewing:
1) distilled water
2) (nothing to mash)
3) season to taste based on the mineral composition in the wort. See #3 for a source of ideas on mineral composition for various brands. Note that you won't get ppm information. But, in my experience, it's a better starting point than what's available for free.
For partial mash brewing, it may be that the approach is:
1) distilled water
2) adjustments for a good mash
3) season to taste based on the mineral composition in the wort.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
I'm interested in the "season to taste" idea using brewing salts, that's totally new to me, can you give some insight/guidance on what works for you, specifically, how much and what do you add?
BrewnWKopperKat
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The idea of adding brewing salts to a glass of beer is talked about occasionally: Make a concentrated solution and add it to a glass of beer in small amounts.
Over the last year, I've been trying out a process where, based on the amount of salts that were added in the glass, I can revise the extract-based recipe with that information. Not quite done with the process yet.
I've been working primarily with CaS04 & CaCl, occasionally with NaCl.
For the APA/IPAs (single brand of DME) that I've tried this on, "safe" amounts have been in quarter gram per gallon range. Different brands will have a different range for "safe" amounts.
The recipes in the "no boil" NEIPA would also be a source of information for flavor additions. Different styles are likely to have a different range for "safe" amounts.
Over the last year, I've been trying out a process where, based on the amount of salts that were added in the glass, I can revise the extract-based recipe with that information. Not quite done with the process yet.
I've been working primarily with CaS04 & CaCl, occasionally with NaCl.
For the APA/IPAs (single brand of DME) that I've tried this on, "safe" amounts have been in quarter gram per gallon range. Different brands will have a different range for "safe" amounts.
The recipes in the "no boil" NEIPA would also be a source of information for flavor additions. Different styles are likely to have a different range for "safe" amounts.
I've done this also. I used this thread extract taste...every time. as a starting point. Made solutions of CaCl and CaSO4 and added very small amounts to a test glass of beer, comparing to the untreated beer. Then adjusted up and down until the flavor was optimized. Repeated the process for both malty and hoppy beers. Then calculated how much of each salt to add to a 5 gallon batch. I think it's worthwhile for extract beers.
Edit: Sorry, I pasted the wrong thread - see this one: A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer
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BrewnWKopperKat
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IIRC, you were on the "short list" of people who inspired me to dig into this. Thanks!
Currently, my process uses a 12 oz bottle. It only takes a couple of sips to get to "mineralized" - so I'll likely review my process over the next couple of months to see if I can do this with either 6 oz or 4 oz pours.
MrPhyr
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The issue isn't necessarily how quickly the ingredients go bad. LME is going go bad when LME goes bad, but you just have no clue when the kit was put together and how long is was sitting on some self in a warehouse. You play roulette any time you don't buy the ingredients fresh yourself.
This isn’t directly related to Soulshines issue, but I’ve always wondered if there might be some interaction with the foil seal and the LME over a period of time. I think there might be a thin plastic coating over the foil but most of the issues I’ve had with off flavors using LME tasted metallic and not an issue with similar DME. Having said that I’m guessing if that were the case metallic twang would be much more of an issue.
Metallic Twang would also be a great band name for a heavy metal/folk fusion band.
Metallic Twang would also be a great band name for a heavy metal/folk fusion band.
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