Element position in kettle

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My HERMS coil will be 50' 1/2" OD tubing. I can choose to have it 10" diameter or 12 1/2" diameter. The kettle is 15.6" in diameter. I think I would be fine if I choose 12 1/2" diameter. That leaves the coil 8-9" high. The 10" diameter is 10-11" high. I feel that is leaving me with too much unexposed coil. I don't want to have to keep 10+ gallons of water in the HLT at all times as it will be wasteful in the end, I think.

What I figure is from the bottom of the element to the top of the HERMs coil, the height would be about 10-11" high (leaving clearance between the element and coil). Adding the space under the element, I'm at almost 16". The kettle is 19.5" high. Is that okay?

The alternative, if I insist on sticking with Bayou Classic, is to get the 15 gallon kettle which is designed actually better for my application. It is $55 less, it lacks volume markings and I don't care about the valve as I have the extra now with the now trashed 16 gallon one.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VXD94A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I do care about volume markings though. I picked Bayou Classic because I love my 10-gallon one, I like the volume markings, the price is real nice. If there's another $100-$150 kettle that is like the one I've already bought with similar dimensions then I'd take it.

The backstory on the kettle itself...

I purchased a Bayou Classic 16-gallon kettle (1064) to use as my HLT. I am using a 2" weldless triclover bulkhead for my heating element. I had a 2" hole drilled into the kettle, but it is about 1/16" too high. There's a lip in the kettle that is preventing the nut from making a seal to the kettle wall. There's no way around it as there is no room to grind down the nut and still make a seal with the gasket. The kettle cannot be altered either at this point.

A stainless sanitary welder has been hard to find and folks are saying for a $155 kettle, just buy another. So that's what I am doing.

Which led me to the question about element height. There isn't really room for a 2" TC fitting below the lip. The kettle curves at the bottom and it just can't work. I was thinking of putting the fitting above the line. That is at the 2.5 gallon mark on the kettle. The element would be about 3-4" above the bottom. Then I have to give consideration for my HERMS coil.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hello said:
The backstory on the kettle itself...

I purchased a Bayou Classic 16-gallon kettle (1064) to use as my HLT. I am using a 2" weldless triclover bulkhead for my heating element. I had a 2" hole drilled into the kettle, but it is about 1/16" too high. There's a lip in the kettle that is preventing the nut from making a seal to the kettle wall. There's no way around it as there is no room to grind down the nut and still make a seal with the gasket. The kettle cannot be altered either at this point.

A stainless sanitary welder has been hard to find and folks are saying for a $155 kettle, just buy another. So that's what I am doing.
Click to expand...

Silver solder?
 
Silver solder the 2" hole in the kettle that I have? I've never solder before. What would I solder over it?
 
Sorry I wasn't clear. Silver solder the triclover in the pot at the hole you already have, without the gasket. As long as the outside flange of the TC mates to the pot, should work well.

If you have a propane torch, silver solder kits are only like 10 bucks.

BobbyM will teach you here...
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIkvP55UbxM[/ame]
 
@wilserbrewer ah, I see. The lip on the inside of the kettle prevents the flange from making complete contact all the way around. There's a gap, I'd say a 16" of an inch, at the top of the flange. If lined up with the hole, the flange hits the lip. If lowered, the hole will need to be grinded out and it would then be more oblong than round. Then at that point, there's nothing to solder anything to.

In the end, it is the lip that prevents a seal, no matter how the bulkhead is affixed.
 
It is slightly above that outer inset. I'll take a pic soon, but I don't think solder will work. I could be wrong.
 
Perhaps the interior nut could be ground down and reduced in diameter, and the seal could be placed on the outside of the kettle.

Somehow without a tremendous effort, I'm hoping you can save the kettle.

Some detailed pics will surely get the crowd here brainstorming.
 
It's hard to get pics of the inside, but I tried. Here are some photos.
Also, do I need propane for solder? Here's a kit I could buy:
http://www.lowes.com/pd_97541-273-8200PKS_1z0wcid__?productId=3135969&pl=1

image1.JPG

image2.JPG

IMG_2585.jpg

Inside of the kettle. although upside down, you can see just how much the lip hinders anything. I don't even know how I'd get a solid solder in there anyway. It's 15" in diameter and I'm not able to just get my head and arms into the kettle. It seems improbable to be able to do that.
IMG_2586.jpg
 
Interesting, how about a picture of just the hole, without the fitting? How does just the outside portion of the TC sit on the kettle without the nut on the inside?
Thanks
 
TechyDork said:
What if you used this fitting to solder on? It doesn't have the lip on the side that would be soldered on.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc2mwf.htm
Click to expand...

Hmmm I wonder. Look at these pics though. I think there is some play in that 2" hole.

@wilserbrewer


But also, to the original question about height of element, coil and such...what am I looking at there if I can't successfully save this kettle? IMG_2580.jpg

IMG_2579.jpg
 
Also for $5 I could try it I suppose. At least order it and if it doesn't work then I'm out only the cost of the solder kit and that $5.00 + shipping.

Is that solder kit okay and is the wire okay to use or do I need to get stainless wire? I saw some for $16.50.
 
The BH weld on fitting has no flange and would not be a candidate for silver solder IMO.

While it may be tricky, and perhaps beyond your skill set. I think an experienced tin knocker could grind a portion of the back nut to provide clearance. It also looks as if the kettle needs to be shaped so the front flange of the TC sits nearly flush on the outside of the kettle.

I would suggest a propane torch. Harris stay brite solder and stay clean flux. Watch bobby m's video
 
I watched the video before going weldless. I don't know if there's enough to grind down on that flange to still make a seal on the gasket. My theory was $40 for that flange (the entire bulkhead), $155 for the kettle. If I botch the flange, or some guy does, then I'm out another $40 plus I still need a new kettle.
I'll find out if there is someone who might be able to do it. Maybe they'll be more confident than me, highly probable in fact.

As to the original question on element position, last resort here...can it be done? I'm looking at the HERMs coil reaching up to about 14" from the bottom of the kettle. Wouldn't I need to keep the HERMs coil submerged in water during recirculation? If so, there's a good amount of water left over in the end, but I could use that for cleaning.
 
With the silver solder, you would not use the gasket, the front flange would be soldered to the front wall of the kettle, the nut on the back is merely insurance.

The solder is your seal.
 
Not sure how your at $100?

I think you need a propane torch and the stay brite silver solder kit....

Torch and propane tank $15
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-UL100-Basic-Propane-Torch-Kit-334458/203665003

kit $12
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/stay-brite-solder

DIY hammer block of wood to shape kettle to match flange $?

Hello said:
As to the original question on element position, last resort here...can it be done? I'm looking at the HERMs coil reaching up to about 14" from the bottom of the kettle. Wouldn't I need to keep the HERMs coil submerged in water during recirculation? If so, there's a good amount of water left over in the end, but I could use that for cleaning.
Click to expand...

As to your original question, idealy you want the herms coil fully submerged, but worst case if it remains 80% submerged it should still work, just less efficiently.
 
In these situations, I wish everyone was driving distance to my shop. I'd knock it out in 10 minutes and have you on your way. My 2" radius face solder on flange would likely fit much nicer over the outside contours and would take to soldering well.

That particular weldless TC just isn't going to work on a 13xx series pot as that ring around the bottom just isn't going to leave room.
 
wilserbrewer said:
Not sure how your at $100?

I think you need a propane torch and the stay brite silver solder kit....

Torch and propane tank $15
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bernzomatic-UL100-Basic-Propane-Torch-Kit-334458/203665003

kit $12
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/stay-brite-solder

DIY hammer block of wood to shape kettle to match flange $?



As to your original question, idealy you want the herms coil fully submerged, but worst case if it remains 80% submerged it should still work, just less efficiently.
Click to expand...
I was looking at MAP torch setups or something, I think. I also considered the price of the flange, but still...with your links, not at $100.
Thank you for all of your input here. I think I'm going to bit the bullet, watch the video a dozen times, and order the stuff. Hell, if I could gut and rebuild a bathroom using nothing but YouTube videos and some dude named Bill at Home Depot, I bet I could do this.
Bobby_M said:
In these situations, I wish everyone was driving distance to my shop. I'd knock it out in 10 minutes and have you on your way. My 2" radius face solder on flange would likely fit much nicer over the outside contours and would take to soldering well.


That particular weldless TC just isn't going to work on a 13xx series pot as that ring around the bottom just isn't going to leave room.
Click to expand...
Bobby, it's funny that you mention the bulkhead not fitting on the 13xx series pots with that ring. Initially I had said the hole was 1/16" too high. As I was preparing to order another pot, knowing there was one with the ring up top (without volume markings or a valve and slightly less volume) I took the flange and started to notice there is no good way. Between the ring and the contour of the bottom, it's not going to work. Lesson learned and no doubt something I'd share with people.

So you're looking at this and it looks like despite where the hole is, that 2" flange will work even though the current flange I have sits slightly over the ring itself? I assume this also removes the need for the entire weldless bulkhead that I have now because the flange will connect straight to the TC adapter I have on my heating element, which is nice.
You also make it easier because you sell the silver solder kit. You couldn't be more accommodating at this point. ;)
 
Hello said:
View attachment 280618
Click to expand...

I originally thought the indentation in the kettle was raised, and holding the fitting off the kettle surface. After looking again, it certainly appears it is the radius of the kettle that makes the fitting a mismatch. Makes sense to me to return the weldless to SD and get a proper fitting and solder kit from BrewHardware.

The nice thing about silver solder is that no matter how bad you screw up, you can always take it apart, clean and try soldering again. Unlike welding where it is very possible to quickly ruin something.

I think you can save the kettle, and be a couple bucks under budget w/ returning the $45 weldless fitting....BrewHardware FTW!
 
wilserbrewer said:
I originally thought the indentation in the kettle was raised, and holding the fitting off the kettle surface. After looking again, it certainly appears it is the radius of the kettle that makes the fitting a mismatch. Makes sense to me to return the weldless to SD and get a proper fitting and solder kit from BrewHardware.

The nice thing about silver solder is that no matter how bad you screw up, you can always take it apart, clean and try soldering again. Unlike welding where it is very possible to quickly ruin something.

I think you can save the kettle, and be a couple bucks under budget w/ returning the $45 weldless fitting....BrewHardware FTW!
Click to expand...

No, you're not wrong. There is a ring along the bottom which is a lip on the inside. The flange cannot sit flush against the kettle because of this. The pictures show both the inside and outside of the kettle.

The 2" flange from Bobby should work. I took a mallet to the area prior to noticing the lip issue, so I need to see if my flange sits flush as it is (if that lip weren't there) before I order the one from Bobby. If it does then I'll get the flat flange over the radius faced. Either way, I'm going to try this and since you just said I can undo what I did, I'm even more inclined to think this is going to work.

Thanks
 
I'm thinking radius flange over flat, but you obviously have a better view....

Curious, you keep mentioning the inside of the kettle, with a soldered flange, the exterior fit is what matters, the inside not much....

For the life of me, I can't imagine how the 2" weld less could seal with the curvature of a kettle?

Unless it was huge, or maybe a bottom drain....

FWIW, I feel a soldered flange will be better job than weldless....good luck, you'll get it done....clean clean clean prior to solder!
 
wilserbrewer said:
I'm thinking radius flange over flat, but you obviously have a better view....

Curious, you keep mentioning the inside of the kettle, with a soldered flange, the exterior fit is what matters, the inside not much....

For the life of me, I can't imagine how the 2" weld less could seal with the curvature of a kettle?

Unless it was huge, or maybe a bottom drain....

FWIW, I feel a soldered flange will be better job than weldless....good luck, you'll get it done....clean clean clean prior to solder!
Click to expand...

Oh I mentioned the lip again because you had said, "indentation in the kettle was raised, and holding the fitting off the kettle surface." And you weren't wrong in your original assessment. So basically I was just confirming.

A 2" weldless seal is working great on a concord 15 gallon kettle right now. Luckily, I stumbled on a thread in my searches that mentioned taking a mallet to the area and flattening it out. So I had done that to both kettles and then learned that the lip was an issue in the HLT but the BK is sealed up very nice. I got 10 gallons of water in there without a leak. Usually the volume of liquid increasing will show signs of a leak if its there.

Anyway, no doubt a soldered flange would be better. In my case I was looking for something I could do on my own as soldering didn't seem like a talent I could possess. To save $155, I'll try it now. Also, you say clean clean clean. Is it okay to clean the area with PBW or Barkeeper's Friend, dry and then start the solder?
 
NO! Do more research, I'm no expert, but the cleaning is more sandpaper then acetone solvent style cleaning, BOTH pot and fitting!!!

OK, I think I also see that your handiwork with the mallet has left the hole marred and the top of the hole is protruding because the metal will not deform near the kettle indentation at the top of the hole. Perhaps shape it to fit a flanged radius. Be warned, you want and need a fairly nice match b/w the TC flange and the kettle wall.
 
You definitely want the radius over the flat style and as luck has it I don't even have the flat style in 2".

The attached picture shows the UNCLAMPED fit of the 2" radius flange on a 1316 pot. It's not flawless, but it's about as good as you can expect given how that area rolls under the pot a bit. With clamping as I show in the video, it will tighten the small gaps up.

Clean with BKF yes, though I like acetone to be sure any oils are gone. Once you have the silver solder and flux, grab a couple stainless washers or any scraps you have and get a feel for how it works. No reason to jump right to the pot. Watch all my solder vids a couple times.

2radiusface.jpg
 
Bobby_M said:
The attached picture shows the UNCLAMPED fit of the 2" radius flange on a 1316 pot.
Click to expand...
Off-topic, but I missed these Radius Faced Solder Flanges coming to market. Here's a post from 2008 were I did something similar to match the radius of a kettle for weldless fittings. How long have they been available?

Still using them today on my stainless pots . . .

Radius Adapter.jpg
 
I don't remember when the radius faced TC adapter first started shipping but it was when I first tried coming up with a welded TC fitting similar to the one the OP is trying to use. I never got that far with the weldless version because I didn't want to force the use of 2" TC parts. I first tried soldering on a compact 1.5" TC spool since it already had a wide face for soldering but the flat nature wasn't going to work.
 
Bobby_M said:
I never got that far with the weldless version because I didn't want to force the use of 2" TC parts. I first tried soldering on a compact 1.5" TC spool since it already had a wide face for soldering but the flat nature wasn't going to work.
Click to expand...
If you're still looking for a weldless solution, here's an idea to look into. I made up a version that fits a 1" pipe thread for heating elements. It also has the radial kettle fit.

EMLT_ flange4.jpg


EMLT_ flange5.jpg
 
wilserbrewer said:
You need a govt contract.
Click to expand...
Kind of, sort of, indirectly do . . . but if it doesn't have something to do with blowing stuff up, they're not interested. :D


But seriously, three easy parts. (Could be done in two.) China could knock these out pretty cheap if a market could be established.
 
I've just placed my order. This is going to be pretty rad if it all works out!

Thanks all again.
 
I actually did have a pair of prototypes that was radiused and had four tapped screw holes. The hardest part was transferring the hole locations to the pot and hitting them dead on. It was so critical to get it right since there was very little gasket surface to mess around with.
 
Bobby_M said:
The hardest part was transferring the hole locations to the pot and hitting them dead on. It was so critical to get it right since there was very little gasket surface to mess around with.
Click to expand...
I put the clearance hole for the 1" pipe thread in the pot first then centered the outer ring and snugged it down with a 1/4" bolt through the middle, a fender washer and nut on the inside and a 1/2" wide strap on the outside. I used the tapped holes in the outer ring as pilots for tap drill size holes through the pot. Took that off and opened up the holes to clearance size.

In hindsight, tapped holes in the inner ring and clearance in the outer may have simplified installation.
 
Bobby_M said:
Ouch, that is gnarly. If I'm betting, you have a 50% chance of getting it to work. Clamp it as tight as you can get it. Worst case, you'll have to have it welded.
Click to expand...

Well ****. I figured the other pics showed what little I have to work with so I already ordered the parts. Back to the original issue, a sanitary stainless welder around here appears to be more than the the price of a new kettle (at least the $100 one). Can I return my order or will I be charged shipping back to you as well?

I'm just buying another kettle.
 
I think I found a welder. He said he welds stainless. Does it have to be sanitary?
 

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