Do higher mashing temps override lower mashing temps?

[Erik the Anglophile]

Are you sure those books weren't recommending 90 minute boils, to increase the "malty" flavors from maillard reactions?

No, it's the mash he recommends to do a bit longer

 

[VikeMan]

No, it's the mash he recommends to do a bit longer

Well, a longer mash results in a drier beer, but why would you want to dry out a beer style that's not supposed to be dry? Does he give specific recipes? Perhaps he's using base malts with fairly low diastatic power (which also has to be stretched across specialty malts). Or maybe he's packing ungodly amounts of crystal malts into the recipes for caramel/toffee/raisin-like flavors and wants to try to keep them from being cloying. But as a general rule, "mash long for sweet/malty styles" doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Well, a longer mash results in a drier beer, but why would you want to dry out a beer style that's not supposed to be dry? Does he give specific recipes? Perhaps he's using base malts with fairly low diastatic power (which also has to be stretched across specialty malts). Or maybe he's packing ungodly amounts of crystal malts into the recipes for caramel/toffee/raisin-like flavors and wants to try to keep them from being cloying. But as a general rule, "mash long for sweet/malty styles" doesn't make sense to me.

Ok, then i will probably just do 60 minute mashes for most ales and keep the 90 min mashes for imperial stouts and recipes like strong ale/scotch ale with a lot of caramel malts.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

They are swedish homebrewing books, written by a guy called Peter Eronsson

When were the books written? What about the types/brands/quality of the malt that he was brewing with?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

When were the books written? What about the types/brands/quality of the malt that he was brewing with?

Max a decade ago, he mostly brews with weyermann and crisp malts i think and is fond of using caramel malts over sugars and extracts for flavoring.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... and is fond of using caramel malts over sugars and extracts for flavoring.

Personally, I'd give his approach a try and see how the beer tastes.

Pay close attention to the specific brands of caramel malts that are in his recipes - with crystal/caramel malts of roughly the same Lovibond, the results can vary a lot between maltsters.

 

[Andre3000]

This is a great thread so I'm resurrecting it. Thanks to everyone who has contributed. I've been really focusing on pilsners lately and I'm pretty convinced these beers are make or break in the mash.

I think the simplest way to ask it is:

Given equal attenuation, is there a difference in wort quality and ultimately beer taste between a mash that really focuses on maximum beta amylase activity for a shorter amount of time, say 145 for 45 minutes, vs a multistep mash focusing on fermentability that takes 90 minutes to complete? You could ask the same question of worts relating to Kai's temp vs time vs fermentability chart that another user posted a few pages back.

In my head the 45 minute mash would have thinner body and less malt character, but is that functionally true?

 

[3 Dawg Night]

This is a great thread so I'm resurrecting it. Thanks to everyone who has contributed. I've been really focusing on pilsners lately and I'm pretty convinced these beers are make or break in the mash.

I think the simplest way to ask it is:

Given equal attenuation, is there a difference in wort quality and ultimately beer taste between a mash that really focuses on maximum beta amylase activity for a shorter amount of time, say 145 for 45 minutes, vs a multistep mash focusing on fermentability that takes 90 minutes to complete? You could ask the same question of worts relating to Kai's temp vs time vs fermentability chart that another user posted a few pages back.

In my head the 45 minute mash would have thinner body and less malt character, but is that functionally true?

Sounds like a good experiment for you to run and report back to us.

 

[cmac62]

say 145 for 45 minutes, vs a multistep mash focusing on fermentability that takes 90 minutes to complete?

In my head the 45 minute mash would have thinner body and less malt character, but is that functionally true?

At 153 for 60 both Beta and Alpha enzymes are working, not at their optimum, but both are chewing through the higher carbs and making fermentable sugar. I'm not sure how much mouth feel (ie thinner) and body character you would notice between the two mashes. Brulosophy (I know this word alone can cause significant debate) has several exbeeriments that test this and it appears most are not statistically significantly, but some were able to tell the different beers apart and some weren't. At 153 the Beta is denaturing faster than at 145, but as I understand it it is also working faster, so if you leave it at 153 for 60 how many of the Betas are still alive and kicking those longer sugars into something the Alphas can work on? To answer your last question, I know my pallet well enough to say I would not likely notice a difference between a 45 min mash at 145* or a 60 min mash at 153*. Prost

Edit: Just reread your questions above and realized my response does not relate to a stepped mash. I'm still not convinced a step mash makes any difference with the highly modified malt most of us are currently using. I've also heard most of the conversion is complete within the first 20-30 minutes, so who knows.