Can you Brew It recipe for Stone Arrogant Bastard

[stonebrewer]

007 is close but NOT the same hence the reason most clones are close but not the same.

Cali-bel uses a belgian yeast not stones yeast.

It is actually WLP5036.

I did not say Stone uses WLP5036 to make Cali-Bel. What I stated was I can get VERY similar results from WLP007 by changing fermentation temps to the bubble gum you get with that yeast.

Not sure I agree that the yeast difference is enough to affect the flavor in the clones I have brewed. Still convinced it is the malt. I have brewed this beer a lot...

 

[ultravista]

stonebrewer - what is your exact hop schedule and temperature? Are you telling me to wait to 180 F before adding one addition (how much) then wait 25 minutes for the final addition (how much)?

I've been following the recipe, adding the flameout at flameout, then letting it sit for an hour or more to cool down. I am confident the long hop stand at the higher temperature is driving off the aroma. Most of my A.B. brews are absent of aroma.

-------
Originally Posted by stonebrewer
Here's what I do for 10G as far as Chinook hops are concerned and I think they are spot on with the real deal:

1.5 oz FWH
1.5 oz @ 90
1 oz @ 20
0.5 oz @ 15, 10, 5, 0

I do not dry hop this. It comes out nice and bitter, but a little smoother from splitting the 90/FWH addition.
-------

When doing the above, how quickly do you begin cooling down after the 0 addition? Immediate, 10, 15, 20 minutes?

 

[Robin0782]

I recently brewed a version of AB that I found somewhere on this site. Here's what I did. Color is light, but the flavor and aroma is really close.

12 lbs Pale Malt
8 oz Biscuit
8 oz Special B
8 oz Aromatic
8 oz Caramunich

2 oz Columbus @ 60
1 oz Chinook @ 10
1 oz Chinook @ 5
2 oz Chinook @ Flameout

US-05 yeast

I mashed at 150 for an hour, got 1.062 down to 1.008 for 7.1% ABV. Perhaps a little more dry and bitter than the real thing, BUT that's more to my taste anyway!

 

[Hop_Hero]

I think the yeast is one of the key differences in the flavor profile for stone. Why else would they keep their strain proprietary? Its not cheap.

Try dry hopping as well. Not a lot but just a little. In my opinion AB is slightly dry hopped

 

[TrickyDick]

I think the next time I brew this, and having recently visited the brewery, I'm going to change up the malt.

90% 2 row
7.5% C-150
1.5% special B?
Chocolate malt either 1% or 2.5% and dump the special B

I swear I sense roasted barley in the mix, but chocolate is a malted barley that's highly killed/roasted, and I think that's the missing element.
I might consider splitting a batch and doing 90/10% 2 row and c-150 and then steeping chocolate malt in one and caraaroma (?) I think was the suggested missing malt, in the other...

TD

 

[fixitoscar]

im going to try this as my next brew
87.8 2row
9.5% c150
2.7 c75
90 min boil
using stonebrewers hop schedule
wlp 007 mashing at 148
since c75 is the darkest crystal used in stone pale ale. gives me an srm of 21.3 which should be close.

 

[stonebrewer]

stonebrewer - what is your exact hop schedule and temperature? Are you telling me to wait to 180 F before adding one addition (how much) then wait 25 minutes for the final addition (how much)?

I've been following the recipe, adding the flameout at flameout, then letting it sit for an hour or more to cool down. I am confident the long hop stand at the higher temperature is driving off the aroma. Most of my A.B. brews are absent of aroma.

-------
Originally Posted by stonebrewer
Here's what I do for 10G as far as Chinook hops are concerned and I think they are spot on with the real deal:

1.5 oz FWH
1.5 oz @ 90
1 oz @ 20
0.5 oz @ 15, 10, 5, 0

I do not dry hop this. It comes out nice and bitter, but a little smoother from splitting the 90/FWH addition.
-------

When doing the above, how quickly do you begin cooling down after the 0 addition? Immediate, 10, 15, 20 minutes?

Immediately!

 

[TrickyDick]

Immediately!

My brew is getting long in the tooth. Brewed it at least 6 months ago I think. I'm freshening it up by adding some dry hops and then going to bottle it from the keg after a couple days contact time.

In a different thread about getting the most hop flavor and aroma from late additions, on poster did a split batch and started chilling immediately with one half, and let another half steep for 20 minutes. He commented on very noticeable differences in flavor and aroma in the steeped beer vs the held that was immediately chilled. I will be doing a 20 minute steep from now on, before I begin to chill.

TD

 

[TungstenBeer]

I know there have been many, many posts in this thread - and I have read most of them at some point or another.

What I don't see mentioned often is how long people are letting this sit in a carboy before bottling/kegging. I was thinking it might benefit from a month or two in a secondary, but I don't want to kill the chinook either.

Thoughts?

 

[ultravista]

Secondary is old school - no more secondary unless you are adding something post fermentation

Leave it rest until final gravity is reached.

 

[TungstenBeer]

Secondary is old school - no more secondary unless you are adding something post fermentation



Leave it rest until final gravity is reached.

The point of my question was really more about bulk conditioning, regardless of whether it's in the primary vessel, secondary vessel, or 9th vessel. If I'm going to let something condition for two months it will be in a secondary carboy so my primary is freed up.

So, are people letting this one sit for a while before bottling?

 

[stonebrewer]

I ferment this guy in primary for 2-3 weeks, usually 3. I then keg it and age it in the keg for a month.

 

[TungstenBeer]

Perfect - thank you.

 

[stonebrewer]

Perfect - thank you.

No problem! I have also aged this in the keg for almost a year and it is really good. It will lose some of the Chinook flavor/aroma, but you can slap an ounce into a sack and toss it into the keg and it will taste/smell great.

 

[TungstenBeer]

Great to know. I've wondered if an extended age with a dry hop after a long time would help... Sounds perfect.

 

[TrickyDick]

I did the same to min after it became a bit long in the tooth (kegged), and I wanted to make room on the taps for a different brew. I added a fresh charge of Chinook dry hops to the half keg and let it rest for a week or so, then bottled with Beer gun.

Really refreshed the flavor.

Next time I am skipping the special B and using some chocolate malt.

 

[reddskinnfan]

I did the same to min after it became a bit long in the tooth (kegged), and I wanted to make room on the taps for a different brew. I added a fresh charge of Chinook dry hops to the half keg and let it rest for a week or so, then bottled with Beer gun.

Really refreshed the flavor.

Next time I am skipping the special B and using some chocolate malt.

I, personally, think that the grain bill is along these lines:

2-row
Caramel 20L
Special B (to color)
Aromatic Malt

or

2-row
Caramel 20L
Pale Chocolate (to color)
Aromatic Malt

 

[TrickyDick]

This is the big debate of course.

To me, I find the huge hop doses make it difficult to teats out the malt.

However, I think special B is out of place. There is a clean roasty flavor I detect that's too subtle to be roasted barley. I think for sure there is some chocolate malt in the bill. I think that stone uses c150 as well, or perhaps a blend of several crystal malts including c150. The mystery and debate continues...

Not sure about aromatic malt. This was suggested earlier in this thread. Supposedly there was a mistake in the brew house the resulted in the birth of arrogant bastard. Who knows what, but I'm guessing sacks of grain were inadvertently milled and added to the grist. C in chocolate malt mistaken for a C in a crystal malt? I am not sure this is just a guess. Special B raisiny flavor is way off to my taste buds, maybe I used too much. Its fun to guess though.

 

[TungstenBeer]

I mean, if you listen to the Can You Brew It with Jamil they insist they were told it was a simple recipe and that it's 90% base and 10% special b. I'm sure you guys have listened to it, but the way they talk (despite not concluding it's not necessarily cloned) is just so damn convincing...

 

[TrickyDick]

Yeah, I know. I think in this thread this has been hashed over many many times. I was at the brewery recently and was discussing my attempt and while they are sworn to secrecy, I may have learned a thing or two... But who knows. Haven't brewed v 2.0 as of yet. Yeah, I just don't think they use special B, or if they do, very small amount, far less than 10%. I don't have my recipe on hand at the moment, but the special b was overpowering to me. I think they probably use two specialty malts and that one is c150 or a blend of various darker crystal malts and the other is chocolate malt. Not sure on the ratio though. My next stab at this will be brewed this way. I'm thinking 90% base, 9% C150, 1% chocolate, maybe up to 2%.

My last brew wasn't bitter enough, but if think its because my burners like a little higher pressure that I can't get from my buried propane tanks alone. Started using a portable cylinder for boil duty, and bitterness will improve.

TD

 

[TungstenBeer]

Yeah, I know. I think in this thread this has been hashed over many many times. I was at the brewery recently and was discussing my attempt and while they are sworn to secrecy, I may have learned a thing or two... But who knows. Haven't brewed v 2.0 as of yet. Yeah, I just don't think they use special B, or if they do, very small amount, far less than 10%. I don't have my recipe on hand at the moment, but the special b was overpowering to me. I think they probably use two specialty malts and that one is c150 or a blend of various darker crystal malts and the other is chocolate malt. Not sure on the ratio though. My next stab at this will be brewed this way. I'm thinking 90% base, 9% C150, 1% chocolate, maybe up to 2%.

My last brew wasn't bitter enough, but if think its because my burners like a little higher pressure that I can't get from my buried propane tanks alone. Started using a portable cylinder for boil duty, and bitterness will improve.

TD

Appreciate the response for sure, especially since I am late to the game acting like I am a know it all, haha.

But seriously... I do think if you blend some amount of Special B and English crystal you'll get an amazing beer. I have to say I do taste some special B like flavor in AB... 10%? No idea.

 

[TrickyDick]

I only took one stab at this. I think stonebrewer and ultravista have made multiple attempts. Somewhere they repeated the 10 special B and also a 10 % c150. Neither were regarded are correct. I think one person, I forgot who, suggested the English dark crystal blend is the right specialty malt. I think it includes a range of °L, and is sold by more beer? I have not tried that approach, but someone said it was closest so far.

I can't recall how much special B I used in my brew, However, whatever it was, it was too much. Too dark, and didn't compare at all to the real brew. I did a side by side. Close but no cigar. Color was way off. I also used some special roast, mostly on a whim.
I also think I taste special B in the real deal, but after brewing with some, I think I'm probably wrong on the taste pickup. I do get a hint of roasted malt.

I'm thinking maybe the stone mistake was that during the grind, they accidentally crushed a sack of chocolate mixed up in the pile of c-150. Anyway. Only one way to find out. I think I posted my side by side a while back. Time to revisit this for another attempt in 2014. Might be fun to do a 1% special B brew too. Maybe I do a split mash and split boil, steeping the 1% grain for each...but that's a lot of work...

TD

 

[GRBC]

Have you considered Briess extra special malt instead of special B? It's a dark crystal that is somewhat roasty. dark plum, toffee, burnt marshmallow flavors. Not as raisiny as special b.

 

[TrickyDick]

I think (from memory) my grist was 90% 2 row, 5% C150, 2.5% special B and 2.5% Breiss special roast.

Wanted to post a photo but damn apple photo stream is screwed up.....

Edit.

Found my recipe. Beer smith cloud is pretty cool....

I was close up top, but here is what I did for real.

86.8% base 2 row
9.4% c150
1.7% special b
1.7% special roast
0.4% carapils.

If I could find my picture of the side by side, you'd see mine is much darker than the stone brew...

 

[GRBC]

Sounds good. Just to be clear though, special roast is different from extra special malt.

 

[TrickyDick]

Yeah, I used the Breiss special roast.

Found the pic of the side by side...



Mine significantly darker.

TD

 

[stonebrewer]

So if you read their book, the founders of Stone say that they were brewing Stone Pale ale on new equipment and completely botched the calculations for malt AND hops. In that, they use Ahtanum, Columbus, C60, C75, and pale. So assuming they aren't putting up a smokescreen, they must have been at least changing up the hops, as it is certain that AB has Chinook. Perhaps they added a darker crystal as well. I think my second or third try was close, using British crystal malt (C135/165) and some Special B and a touch of C60. I may try to brew this again soon with less Special B, more British crystal, and more C60. I have the hops as close as I think I can get, though I might add a spot of Columbus to the Chinook. Guess I need to drink the 4-5 gallons I have before doing this though...sigh! Time to grab a few bottles of AB for, ahem, research purposes. Cheers!

 

[TrickyDick]

that's on my to read list. I have it but reading wild brews right now. Bought about 16 brewing books last year and working my way through them. Oh yeah, I think I added some Ahtanum to my brew also like one oz in a sea of over 16 oz chinook pellets.. Like a drop in the bucket....


TD

 

[stonebrewer]

I think all you would get out of that would be a slight addition to the aroma. Chinook, with its harsh bitterness is going to eliminate any taste aspect another hop might add, especially at that ratio. I am thinking it cannot hurt to add some Columbus though, and definitely play with the malt bill. Perhaps we are just being to aggressive with the SB and crystals and need to lighten up on them? I may have to move this to my 3 gallon setup and brew it more often and with a lot more control...if work will ever allow, that is. Sigh! Cheers!

 

[TrickyDick]

Any thought on the base malt? I used Rahr 2 row. I wonder if they use something like Golden Promise (as they supposedly use in the Enjoy By) or another English base malt, or a blend of US and English.

Not sure. Anyways, I think next time I might up the early hop additions as mine was not sharp like the real deal. I am also going to explore my mash and kettle pH to be sure I am into the 5.2 pH range and a little lower kettle pH for optimal hop extraction and bitterness. Mostly want to work on the malt profile though, which I think has been the more difficult to replicate.

I read about the Stone water profile, Escondido water filtered and diluted with 50:50 RO. Thought I'd throw that out there, as it may play into perceived bitterness.

I think I might also scale back to 5 gallon or smaller brews until I get closer to target. It is difficult with only so precious few brew days per year to brew less.

TD

 

[luk-cha]

just read thru this thread, has any one tried with pale ale malt insted of 2 row?

 

[s2000]

Enjoy By is a 50/50 mix of English and US base malt with some dextrose on top, word straight from the brewmaster. I imagine the US base malt is standard 2-row, the English could be Marris Otter, Golden Promise, not sure.

Mitch Steele did an article in Zymurgy recently about hop bursting and he mentioned Stone have had a lot of success with FWH in their beers. I thought that was rather interesting because as far as I know there isn't an "official" Stone recipe that calls for first wort hopping, maybe they use it in recipes that they haven't revealed to the public (Arrogant Bastard?).

Assuming Arrogant Bastard is what Stone say it is (their pale ale scaled incorrectly), Stone pale ale has about 1lb/bbl hops total. The pale ale uses about 30% of the hop weight for bittering and 70% for flavour/aroma in the whirlpool. If I scale the recipe up to 1.5lb/bbl and replace all the hops with Chinook, 30% weight at 90 minutes, 70% at whirlpool / hop stand, I get ~85 IBU (12.1% Chinook) which is interesting since that's pretty much exactly where people estimate the IBU's to sit.

Could just be coincidence of course but in a 5 gallon batch that's ~4oz hops total, 1.2oz at 90, 2.8oz at whirlpool.

TrickyDick's version is obviously too dark, according to what I can figure out his recipe amounts to around 23 SRM?

Using 90% base malt + 10% Caraaroma (~150 SRM) which is the malt I suggested earlier as a roastier replacement for Special B, no other malts, I calculate about 20 SRM which seems like it would be closer to the real colour?

 

[rpkincaid]

I brewed this back in early December.

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
13 lbs Brewer's Malt, 2-Row, Premium (Great Wes Grain 1 86.7 %
1 lbs Caraaroma (Weyermann) (178.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.7 %
8.0 oz Crystal 150, 2-Row, (Great Western) (150 Grain 3 3.3 %
1.00 oz Chinook [14.30 %] - First Wort 90.0 min Hop 4 46.9 IBUs
8.0 oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 5 3.3 %
2.00 oz Chinook [14.30 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 39.5 IBUs
3.00 oz Chinook [14.30 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15. Hop 7 14.8 IBUs


Turned out very nice, but not a clone at all. More hop flavor than any AB I have had.

 

[ultravista]

I did a double bastard last year with C150. It is much higher in gravity so the taste profile is different than it's sibling. Personally, I found the C150 lacking the 'crystal' flavor apparent in both DB and AB. Perhaps it was my brewing process this time.

 

[TrickyDick]

Enjoy By is a 50/50 mix of English and US base malt with some dextrose on top, word straight from the brewmaster. I imagine the US base malt is standard 2-row, the English could be Marris Otter, Golden Promise, not sure.

Mitch Steele did an article in Zymurgy recently about hop bursting and he mentioned Stone have had a lot of success with FWH in their beers. I thought that was rather interesting because as far as I know there isn't an "official" Stone recipe that calls for first wort hopping, maybe they use it in recipes that they haven't revealed to the public (Arrogant Bastard?).

Assuming Arrogant Bastard is what Stone say it is (their pale ale scaled incorrectly), Stone pale ale has about 1lb/bbl hops total. The pale ale uses about 30% of the hop weight for bittering and 70% for flavour/aroma in the whirlpool. If I scale the recipe up to 1.5lb/bbl and replace all the hops with Chinook, 30% weight at 90 minutes, 70% at whirlpool / hop stand, I get ~85 IBU (12.1% Chinook) which is interesting since that's pretty much exactly where people estimate the IBU's to sit.

Could just be coincidence of course but in a 5 gallon batch that's ~4oz hops total, 1.2oz at 90, 2.8oz at whirlpool.

TrickyDick's version is obviously too dark, according to what I can figure out his recipe amounts to around 23 SRM?

Using 90% base malt + 10% Caraaroma (~150 SRM) which is the malt I suggested earlier as a roastier replacement for Special B, no other malts, I calculate about 20 SRM which seems like it would be closer to the real colour?

I need to learn to multi quote....

I heard the Enjoy By used Golden Promise. That's what I used in my attempt. Very very close. mine not as bitter, but was battling boilovers and had to turn down intensity of boil. I also didn't use extract for mine. the nose and flavor were bullseye though. Its a great brew...

I'm not sure AB uses FWH. Seems too aggressively , no arrogantly, bitter for a FWH. That said, I'd love to experiment with tasting a brew done with FWH and without. I've done a few times, and truly I find it hard to discern a real "Wow this FWH bitterness is great" impact... but thats just me. From what I've read therefore, it seems the bitterness is huge in AB, and I'd be surprised that they got it that way with FWH. I'd bet that hop extract may be used though. Anyway... I think Chinook is the right Hop used. Whether or not they add any Athanum or not, who knows....

The Caraaroma usage was proposed earlier in the thread. I don't recall who. Has anybody brewed it with Caraaroma yet? FWIW, Beersmith predicts my SRM at 21.8 on that brew. I've noticed they come out a bit darker than intended. I haven't figured out why, but I suspect mis-labelled crystal malt sack (not this batch though). anyways...

I had proposed trying to do an experiment by adding steeped specialty grains, strained and the liquor boiled then cooled into 1 gallon jars/bottles. This will be blended with wort from a batch of AB clone brewed without any specialty grain. Racking near high krausen into 1 gal vessels each containing the appropriate dose of said cooled liquor. Multiple Mini mashed 1 gallon stovetop boil batches could do the same, but seems like that'd be more work. I haven't really committed to doing this yet, since I don't have any 1 gallon vessels to ferment in. Plus I still need to figure out how to do the proportions of malt properly. Ideally the specialty malts would be ones not requiring mashing, which I think is probably the case with the usual suspects in question here. Of course, in order for this to hone in on AB, the hops would need to be right from the get go. Mine were not quite there, but as I've previously mentioned, at that time I brewed, my burners weren't getting the boil as rigorous as they needed to, AND I didn't have whirlpool ability for steeping hops. The whirlpool seems to make a difference in the extraction of the flavor and aroma character in my opinion versus just a stand still steeping.

So I guess we need say 5 (though I often like to do 10 gal batches) candidates for the specialty malts for my experiment. I really wonder if anyone has tried this type of experiment and if it will really work as intended, for zeroing in on a clone recipe?

TD

 

[reddskinnfan]

Just throwing this out there:

What if the darker color and prune/raisin flavor is from 150 or 180 candi sugar. Would substantiate a less roasty flavor with the darker color as wwll as more hop flavor/aroma due to using simple sugar instead of converted sugar chains.

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[stonebrewer]

Just throwing this out there:

What if the darker color and prune/raisin flavor is from 150 or 180 candi sugar. Would substantiate a less roasty flavor with the darker color as wwll as more hop flavor/aroma due to using simple sugar instead of converted sugar chains.

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Like I told you yesterday, I think this is an excellent experiment for someone to do. I know they were doing a lot of travel to Belgium to observe techniques that the monks use, like candi. You might be onto something...formulate, brother!

 

[reddskinnfan]

Like I told you yesterday, I think this is an excellent experiment for someone to do. I know they were doing a lot of travel to Belgium to observe techniques that the monks use, like candi. You might be onto something...formulate, brother!

Oh, already working on it. Thats why I picked up that 180L candi yesterday.

Just giving the forum the idea too, in case gets to a brew day before me.

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[stonebrewer]

So are you going to do small batch or trying for a homerun? I really want to see someone nail this recipe to the wall...it has been so elusive. I talked to Tasty about it at NHB convention in Philly and he said Jamil had given up and moved on. Tasty did not seemed pleased...Jamil has a lot on his plate these days, but if you google this topic (can you brew it) AB comes up predominantly. People really want this recipe! Hell there are almost 800 posts in this thread and we are inching closer to it...keep brewing fellas!

 

[reddskinnfan]

So are you going to do small batch or trying for a homerun? I really want to see someone nail this recipe to the wall...it has been so elusive. I talked to Tasty about it at NHB convention in Philly and he said Jamil had given up and moved on. Tasty did not seemed pleased...Jamil has a lot on his plate these days, but if you google this topic (can you brew it) AB comes up predominantly. People really want this recipe! Hell there are almost 800 posts in this thread and we are inching closer to it...keep brewing fellas!

Homerun, of course! ;-)

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