Can you Brew It recipe for Stone Arrogant Bastard

[TrickyDick]

Thanks. At one point I read this whole thread but h been some time. I did dry hop this late in the primary, and I think I will probably want to dry hop in the keg. I honesty don't recall dry hoping the secondary.

Think ill start one ounce at a time and go from there.
Thanks

TD

 

[neosapien]

I'm just basing my info from the interviews with mike steele on the brewingnetwork which are fresh on my mind (having listened to them all over the past week). If you hit on something that gets close be sure to clue the rest of us in on it

 

[TrickyDick]

Well, I'm sipping my undercarbed version now. I know I hit the gravity marks on both ends.
I didn't end up making it to the store on the way home. without a side by side and without a fully carbed brew, kind of pointless. I tell you though it is very very close to what AB tastes like, and I can't wait to have a side by side test. bitterness seems pretty darn good and may be right. I think that the malt is close but not sure if it is exact. It seems that the plum type character that comes through from the Special B is just off. More to follow. Oh, and I ran out of chinook hops. If I think the side by side comparo shows mine lacking, I may buy some and do keg hopping.

TD

 

[reuliss]

I seem to recall the answer to how much to dry hop being "More than you would expect."

From all the attempts (forgive if it has been addressed but I'm not reading all 650 posts) I've seen it's mostly Chinook all over the place. One of the few bits of verifiable information about this recipe is that it was originally formulated as a SMaSH recipe. The BN shows dialed in on it by infusing Stone IPA with tinctures of various malts and hops and such. Perhaps the same method could work for determining the amount of dry hopping? Do it the same way you would do the bud light hop test. Get a couple of bombers, put them in 12oz bottles, and drop various amounts of pellets in each bottle. Let sit in the fridge for a couple of days then try. Might give you an idea of how hard to hit it with the dry hopping.

Are you guys sure the beer is dry hopped? I really don't get that impression from it.

 

[neosapien]

I'm not positive, but feel reasonably sure that when jamil asked mike about dryhopping the answer he got was "more than you would expect." I might be confusing that with a different question though. I don't really get much of a dry-hop perception of it myself, but perhaps that is why mike answered like he did? dunno. I'll revisit the episodes over the weekend and get it right.

 

[reuliss]

I'm not positive, but feel reasonably sure that when jamil asked mike about dryhopping the answer he got was "more than you would expect." I might be confusing that with a different question though. I don't really get much of a dry-hop perception of it myself, but perhaps that is why mike answered like he did? dunno. I'll revisit the episodes over the weekend and get it right.

You're talking about the CYBI podcast? They gave the recipe at the end. No dry hops.

 

[neosapien]

excellent! thanks for saving me the time of listening to them all again. there it is then I know that mike answered something with 'more than you would expect'... gotta remember what it was.

 

[reuliss]

excellent! thanks for saving me the time of listening to them all again. there it is then I know that mike answered something with 'more than you would expect'... gotta remember what it was.

I wish they'd bring that show back. Loved it.

 

[TrickyDick]

thanks!

TD

 

[ultravista]

For those that have brewed this numerous times, what is your yeast of choice and favorite mash temperature? I like my A.B. malty ...

 

[stonebrewer]

I use wlp007 and mash at the high end...156 or thereabout. For what it is worth, I think I have the hops down, and do not dry hop. I do 10G batches, using 1.5 oz at FWH and 90, an oz for flavor at 20, and a half oz every 5 minutes starting at 15, including one at flame out. That's 6 oz of Chinook in a finished 10G batch which puts it around 80-85 IBU. This leaves a distinct Chinook flavor and roughness to add to the smooth malt flavor. I don't think I can get the hops much closer than the original. The malt or yeast is still not right. Maybe I will play with fermentation temps next and try to ferment this at 62-65 instead of 70. Dunno...got 5 gallons left so might be time to brew it up again.

 

[reuliss]

I use wlp007 and mash at the high end...156 or thereabout. For what it is worth, I think I have the hops down, and do not dry hop. I do 10G batches, using 1.5 oz at FWH and 90, an oz for flavor at 20, and a half oz every 5 minutes starting at 15, including one at flame out. That's 6 oz of Chinook in a finished 10G batch which puts it around 80-85 IBU. This leaves a distinct Chinook flavor and roughness to add to the smooth malt flavor. I don't think I can get the hops much closer than the original. The malt or yeast is still not right. Maybe I will play with fermentation temps next and try to ferment this at 62-65 instead of 70. Dunno...got 5 gallons left so might be time to brew it up again.

I mash very very low (about 147). There are a lot of unfermentables from the loads of special B and AB is a remarkably dry beer.

 

[ultravista]

stonebrewer - do you find that this clone tastes different @ 156 vs. the 147-148 the CYBI recipes call for?

I am sure you tried both - what do you pickup that is different?

Would you mind posting your most recent, nearest to the real-deal, recipe?

 

[stonebrewer]

Ultravista: PM me your email address and I will send you my beersmith file for you to play with.

I mash at 156 because The Craft Of Stone Brewing's recipe for Stone Pale Ale, which this beer sorta fell out of, says to mash that high fro SPA. I think they were looking for a bit of sweetness. I don't find AB to be dry. To me AB, SPA, and Double Bastard all have a beautiful sweet, malty taste to them with a rough and tumble hop bite. That said, I may try to mash at 148 or so on some future version just to see what it produces.

Interesting enough, Steve and Greg both suggest that AB is SPA on steroids. But if you look at what we are brewing, it is not SPA. We are not using C60 and C75, Ahtanum and Columbus as we would be if we miscalculated the amounts of ingredients. So why am I using the SPA mash temp? Perhaps they subbed in Chinook for Columbus and used the same recipe, with lots more malt? Dunno...perhaps we should brew that?

 

[ultravista]

PM with email sent - thank you.

I like a malty sweeter beer and I don't get that at 148 - it is much drier.

Got the Beersmith files too!

 

[reuliss]

Ultravista: PM me your email address and I will send you my beersmith file for you to play with.

I mash at 156 because The Craft Of Stone Brewing's recipe for Stone Pale Ale, which this beer sorta fell out of, says to mash that high fro SPA. I think they were looking for a bit of sweetness. I don't find AB to be dry. To me AB, SPA, and Double Bastard all have a beautiful sweet, malty taste to them with a rough and tumble hop bite. That said, I may try to mash at 148 or so on some future version just to see what it produces.

Interesting enough, Steve and Greg both suggest that AB is SPA on steroids. But if you look at what we are brewing, it is not SPA. We are not using C60 and C75, Ahtanum and Columbus as we would be if we miscalculated the amounts of ingredients. So why am I using the SPA mash temp? Perhaps they subbed in Chinook for Columbus and used the same recipe, with lots more malt? Dunno...perhaps we should brew that?

I think my word choice was not best. I find AB remarkably dry considering all of the unfermentable crystal malt, whether it be special b or something else. I think with all of that crystal you have to be careful mashing too high as it will get too sweet. With the grain bill, it's going to be sweet no matter what, but it could easily get cloying if not given the assistance of a low mash temp (IMHO)

 

[stonebrewer]

reuliss: Not sure I agree. Let's talk about the "myth" that crystal malts cannot be fermented. I believe this is yet another "fact" that does not hold up to inspection. It has been the subject of experimentation by Nilo on HBT and he found that even higher kilned malts will indeed be fermentable, especially if you mash them with base malts as the enzymes from the base malts will indeed convert some of the more complex sugars into base sugars that are fermentable. Alpha-amylase is critical here as it can break down complex sugars into simple sugars that yeast can convert. So when brewing this beer, I want to mash higher in order to break up all that sugar from the crystal malts into something the yeast can eat. The confusing part is that this goes against the literature that says to mash between 140-150 to get higher attenuation. I am wondering if no one has taken into account complex sugars from crystal malts and their impact on beer at lower mash temps?

I always look at balance in a beer, so you have to look at all 4 of the ingredients and find harmony. For this beer, I use WLP007 which attenuates well over 80% for me, so a lot of the sugar is going to get converted. Next, I am hopping it with a very rough, bitter hop in Chinook, that needs more malt presence and sweetness (IMHO) to counteract its contributions. The malt bill is a bit sweet at first glance, but the yeast chosen for this beer and the hops counteract that nicely. Water does not have a great impact here, but I do change my PH by adding phosphoric acid to lower the PH in the mash/sparge to a range that helps the enzymatic action work at peak efficiency. When looked at in total, you would expect a bitter beer with a great malt backbone and a very slight hint of sweetness from residual sugars. Remove too much of the crystal, change the hops, or mash lower and this beer changes a lot and may end up too sweet for my taste.

 

[reuliss]

stonebrewer, I understand your point and I respect that you are testing the conventional wisdom. That said, the conventional wisdom is as it is for a reason. It's not just this recipe that Jamil and Tasty said to mash low. When Matt Bryndelson (sp?) from Firestone Walker was on the podcast, he talked about how me mashed their IPA at 148 in order to dry it out. He also did a step mash and raised to the neighborhood of 155 for a 10 min rest at the end, so perhaps that last step is a nod to your line of reasoning. But the bottom line is that the betas are the enzymes that really break up those sugars at a rapid clip. The alphas only chew off small pieces at the end of the sugar links. Both effects are good if you want to dry something out, which is way the 148 for 60 min and 155 for 10 min might be a great way to go for that effect.

Either way, though, it doesn't sound to me as though you disagree with my take on what the utlimate goal with this beer should be: to get as much of a fermentable wort as possible in order to get this wonderful beer as dry as possible. Not that it will be dry, but dry considering the grain bill. Otherwise we all end up with raisin syrup with this beer. You have just taken the strategy of achieving that effect with a different means. But are ends are the same, no?

 

[stonebrewer]

reuliss: interesting points. FW beers are some of my favorite and I am anxious to try Matt's step mash technique as I have read about it several times and am intrigued by the results. I was waiting to do this with a Double Jack clone, but I think you have talked me into step mashing my next AB brew to see what I get. When I think of AB I think of malty-sweet, which Strong describes as sweet up front but finishing dry. I think that is where you and I can come to common ground. All this talk about AB has me wanting a bottle!! I am on travel so gotta go beer hunting tomorrow. Cheers!

 

[reuliss]

reuliss: interesting points. FW beers are some of my favorite and I am anxious to try Matt's step mash technique as I have read about it several times and am intrigued by the results. I was waiting to do this with a Double Jack clone, but I think you have talked me into step mashing my next AB brew to see what I get. When I think of AB I think of malty-sweet, which Strong describes as sweet up front but finishing dry. I think that is where you and I can come to common ground. All this talk about AB has me wanting a bottle!! I am on travel so gotta go beer hunting tomorrow. Cheers!

Enjoy! And a "hunt" is a great way to describe it. I live in Montgomery County, Md., and it's not always easy to find AB.

 

[stonebrewer]

Just tapped a keg of this I "forgot" I had. Been travelling so much I lost track of my brewing schedule and pipeline. Hate when that happens! Anyhow, it went down so easy I almost went to bed early, if you know what I mean!

Cleaning up carboys from a Pliny clone, then heading to bed for real...but may just have one more AB for the road...

Cheers!

 

[reuliss]

Just tapped a keg of this I "forgot" I had. Been travelling so much I lost track of my brewing schedule and pipeline. Hate when that happens! Anyhow, it went down so easy I almost went to bed early, if you know what I mean!

Cleaning up carboys from a Pliny clone, then heading to bed for real...but may just have one more AB for the road...

Cheers!

Anyplace to get PTE in MoCo?

 

[s2000]

I'm just going to give some random thoughts here. This thread is 67 pages long, so forgive me if I'm just repeating the obvious.

As has been mentioned, if Stone are to be believed, Arrogant Bastard is the result of accidentally scaling the pale ale recipe incorrectly, resulting in something much stronger. However, they also say that the happy accident occurred while they were in the process of "triangulating" the pale ale recipe on a home brewing system, which leads me to believe they had not settled on the "perfect" recipe yet and were trying new things on a small scale, which makes me fairly confident in assuming the modern well-known Stone pale ale recipe is not necessarily reflective of Arrogant Bastard's recipe.

The actual basic idea for the pale ale is fairly close to the recipe being brewed here. ~87% pale malt, ~13% crystal 60/75, mashed at 156ºF, bittering charge at 90 minutes, late additions for flavour/aroma, no dry hop.

I think it's safe to assume that Stone pale ale was always mashed fairly high even in those early days, since it was always intended to be a fairly malty beer. I quote, "We wanted to do a pale ale without using Cascade hops, making it more of a hybrid pale ale and adding an American flair to a more English-style recipe."

Maybe they were experimenting with using lesser amounts of stronger crystal malts? I think it's safe to assume that the crystal malt(s) used in Arrogant Bastard are darker than 60/75 lovibond, so it makes sense that they would drop the percentage of crystal.

It also makes sense that it would be a foreign and/or unusual malt like Special B, since they were aiming for a non-conventional style.

The fact that they apparently did not notice the mistake until the brew day was (almost?) finished leads me to believe that they probably didn't mess up the mash temperature, or the boiling time, I think it's fairly safe to assume they are still boiling for 90 minutes and mashing high.

Chinook hops were definitely around in 1995 when Arrogant Bastard first came to be, they were first released in 1985. Originally bred from a Goldings variety, it seems like it would have been a good candidate to try out for their UK/US hybrid pale ale.

Just some thoughts.

 

[TrickyDick]

I'm just going to give some random thoughts here. This thread is 67 pages long, so forgive me if I'm just repeating the obvious.

As has been mentioned, if Stone are to be believed, Arrogant Bastard is the result of accidentally scaling the pale ale recipe incorrectly, resulting in something much stronger. However, they also say that the happy accident occurred while they were in the process of "triangulating" the pale ale recipe on a home brewing system, which leads me to believe they had not settled on the "perfect" recipe yet and were trying new things on a small scale, which makes me fairly confident in assuming the modern well-known Stone pale ale recipe is not necessarily reflective of Arrogant Bastard's recipe.

The actual basic idea for the pale ale is fairly close to the recipe being brewed here. ~87% pale malt, ~13% crystal 60/75, mashed at 156ºF, bittering charge at 90 minutes, late additions for flavour/aroma, no dry hop.

I think it's safe to assume that Stone pale ale was always mashed fairly high even in those early days, since it was always intended to be a fairly malty beer. I quote, "We wanted to do a pale ale without using Cascade hops, making it more of a hybrid pale ale and adding an American flair to a more English-style recipe."

Maybe they were experimenting with using lesser amounts of stronger crystal malts? I think it's safe to assume that the crystal malt(s) used in Arrogant Bastard are darker than 60/75 lovibond, so it makes sense that they would drop the percentage of crystal.

It also makes sense that it would be a foreign and/or unusual malt like Special B, since they were aiming for a non-conventional style.

The fact that they apparently did not notice the mistake until the brew day was (almost?) finished leads me to believe that they probably didn't mess up the mash temperature, or the boiling time, I think it's fairly safe to assume they are still boiling for 90 minutes and mashing high.

Chinook hops were definitely around in 1995 when Arrogant Bastard first came to be, they were first released in 1985. Originally bred from a Goldings variety, it seems like it would have been a good candidate to try out for their UK/US hybrid pale ale.

Just some thoughts.

I do not think the clone I made accurately comes close to the stone AB. Still haven't done a side by side.
I used C150 plus SB and BSR. Too many variables, but I think the plum like flavor from the special B is out of place.
I also think the hops are not potent enough, next time I brew it, I'm just going to double all additions .. seriously.
Color is close, and I hit all the gravity numbers correctly. I am starting to think its c150 as a single specialty malt, though others say no, but I think the SB is out of place, and there are statements here that the real AB has no SB. I now believe that to be true. I wish I had left the BSR out of mine as that might be confounding my taste buds, and I've never used it before so I'm not entirely sure what flavors its contributing. I think that one possibility could be some regular old Roasted barley being added.

TD

 

[stonebrewer]

PTE in MoCo? Nope. It is only sold on the west coast, though you CAN find it in Philly on tap at places like Monk's Cafe.

I have tried SB, I have tried C150, I have tried C120. None of them gets me the exact malt composition of AB. I will say that all made really good beers but they do not hold up to a triangle test with the real deal. I am convinced my hop characteristics are spot on with AB. Keep brewing until you find the right match and you will be my hero, as well as a lot of others on here...

 

[TrickyDick]

PTE in MoCo? Nope. It is only sold on the west coast, though you CAN find it in Philly on tap at places like Monk's Cafe.

I have tried SB, I have tried C150, I have tried C120. None of them gets me the exact malt composition of AB. I will say that all made really good beers but they do not hold up to a triangle test with the real deal. I am convinced my hop characteristics are spot on with AB. Keep brewing until you find the right match and you will be my hero, as well as a lot of others on here...

Ill have to check my hop additions again to compare with yours. What were the additions you used? I'm still shocked about the lack of tongue scorching bitterness that hits me in the real AB. I really like my brew as well, but it packs a 7.2% wallop for sure! Seem times have fun and blend in the pint at the taps with my other brews.

I'm planning a trip to SD later this fall and plan to head to stone and see what I can spy and pry while I'm there. I recall the sack and sacks of C150


TD

 

[s2000]

Has anybody tried using Caraaroma rather than Special B? I can't seem to find any mention of it in this thread. Apparently it's very similar but not quite the same, perhaps it would be closer to the real deal?

I've also noticed while fudging around with the recipe that 89% base malt, 8% Special B and 3% Crystal 120 comes out to the 100% exact same (theoretical) beer colour to 90% base malt, 10% Special B. Could just be coincidence of course but Stone using multiple crystal malts (one stronger than the other) has its precedents in their other beers.

 

[stonebrewer]

S2000: No on the Caraaroma. Might be worth trying. I have mixed several crystal malts in trying to get this right and have not stumbled on the right mix yet. I am starting to wonder about a couple of things that could affect the final flavor:
1) yeast and/or fermentation temperature
2) Did they toast some of the malt
3) Did they use a step mash or other mash technique that affects the flavor

My last try with C150 seems to have a bit of tannin aftertaste that I do not detect in the real deal. I need to review what I did last time, but I am thinking either I used too much C150 or should not have mashed it. There are folks who do not put crystal in the mash, instead they steep it or add it during mash out or sparge. Others have found that mashing extracts more sugars from crystal. Perhaps there is something in technique versus ingredients we are missing and need to explore?

 

[afr0byte]

S2000: No on the Caraaroma. Might be worth trying. I have mixed several crystal malts in trying to get this right and have not stumbled on the right mix yet. I am starting to wonder about a couple of things that could affect the final flavor:
1) yeast and/or fermentation temperature
2) Did they toast some of the malt
3) Did they use a step mash or other mash technique that affects the flavor

My last try with C150 seems to have a bit of tannin aftertaste that I do not detect in the real deal. I need to review what I did last time, but I am thinking either I used too much C150 or should not have mashed it. There are folks who do not put crystal in the mash, instead they steep it or add it during mash out or sparge. Others have found that mashing extracts more sugars from crystal. Perhaps there is something in technique versus ingredients we are missing and need to explore?

I doubt a tannin flavor would be from the C150. More likely it's a water issue. What's your water like?

 

[stonebrewer]

Water is good and I measure/adjust PH in the mash/sparge to about 5.2 or 5.3 with phosphoric acid. Not sure where that aftertaste is coming from, but it is tannin-like.

 

[afr0byte]

Water is good and I measure/adjust PH in the mash/sparge to about 5.2 or 5.3 with phosphoric acid. Not sure where that aftertaste is coming from, but it is tannin-like.

How clear was your sample? Maybe it was a small amount of yeast bite?

 

[stonebrewer]

Sample was very clear. No yeast visible in suspension (I keg and this has been pouring clear and clean). Never detected this particular after taste in other versions of the recipe. It is not overpowering, but is definitely detectable. I will have to look at my sparge notes, because it definitely seems to be tannin to me. I do not overcarb, so it is not carb bite either. Maybe it is just something that comes along with the C150? I have never used C150 for any other beer...

 

[afr0byte]

Sample was very clear. No yeast visible in suspension (I keg and this has been pouring clear and clean). Never detected this particular after taste in other versions of the recipe. It is not overpowering, but is definitely detectable. I will have to look at my sparge notes, because it definitely seems to be tannin to me. I do not overcarb, so it is not carb bite either. Maybe it is just something that comes along with the C150? I have never used C150 for any other beer...

I brewed a barleywine with some 150 in it recently. I haven't kegged it yet, but I didn't notice any tannin flavor in the FG gravity sample.

 

[TrickyDick]

S2000: No on the Caraaroma. Might be worth trying. I have mixed several crystal malts in trying to get this right and have not stumbled on the right mix yet. I am starting to wonder about a couple of things that could affect the final flavor:
1) yeast and/or fermentation temperature
2) Did they toast some of the malt
3) Did they use a step mash or other mash technique that affects the flavor

My last try with C150 seems to have a bit of tannin aftertaste that I do not detect in the real deal. I need to review what I did last time, but I am thinking either I used too much C150 or should not have mashed it. There are folks who do not put crystal in the mash, instead they steep it or add it during mash out or sparge. Others have found that mashing extracts more sugars from crystal. Perhaps there is something in technique versus ingredients we are missing and need to explore?

I've wondered if they toast some of the base malt or the c-150 even, for quite a while. I thought I detected a roast flavor, but thought I read that there was none. I'm not sure about mashing vs not mashing the crystal malt. By the way, I think there is another AB clone thread here somewhere that I recently discovered but was too long to attempt reading at the time...

TD

 

[s2000]

Reading up on Special B and how it compares to Caraaroma. There are a lot of conflicting opinions. One person says Caraaroma is "sharper" and "roastier" than Special B, then somebody else says "Caaroma is like Special B but less roasty".

EDIT: Having been reading about the two grains all day, it seems like the most common opinion is that Caraaroma is very similar but noticeably less "fruity" than Special B?

Caraaroma: aromatic, melanoidin (intensely malty)
Special B: burnt sugar, raisin, molasses, figs

I'm wondering exactly you guys think is missing from the malt bill? What is the 90/10 2-row/special B missing? Or what does it add that you think is wrong? I've read earlier that the "plum" flavour of Special B isn't quite right. But does it need to be more roasty? More caramel?

The gist I'm getting is that 10% Special B is not quite right. It seems more people are happy with a mix of Special B and a caramel malt like Crystal 150, but it's apparently still not "quite right".

Unfortunately I don't have access to Arrogant Bastard or I'd try and figure it out myself.

 

[ultravista]

... I mentioned many posts ago that Jeff Bagby (of Pizza Port fame) once worked @ Stone. He told the CYBI guys (not under duress) during an interview that C150 was the specialty malt in A.B. That was quite a while ago though.

 

[TrickyDick]

Reading up on Special B and how it compares to Caraaroma. There are a lot of conflicting opinions. One person says Caraaroma is "sharper" and "roastier" than Special B, then somebody else says "Caaroma is like Special B but less roasty".

EDIT: Having been reading about the two grains all day, it seems like the most common opinion is that Caraaroma is very similar but noticeably less "fruity" than Special B?

Caraaroma: aromatic, melanoidin (intensely malty)
Special B: burnt sugar, raisin, molasses, figs

I'm wondering exactly you guys think is missing from the malt bill? What is the 90/10 2-row/special B missing? Or what does it add that you think is wrong? I've read earlier that the "plum" flavour of Special B isn't quite right. But does it need to be more roasty? More caramel?

The gist I'm getting is that 10% Special B is not quite right. It seems more people are happy with a mix of Special B and a caramel malt like Crystal 150, but it's apparently still not "quite right".

Unfortunately I don't have access to Arrogant Bastard or I'd try and figure it out myself.

I am not sure. My allergies are kicking pretty bad right now, but ill try to find a bottle tonight on my way home for a long past due side by side. I am not a BJCP judge and don't up really understand the way these guys (and gals) in terms of which words and what not that they choose. However, I can be fairly descriptive, and I can recruit my wife who is a super taster I suspect. IF I can find a bottle, as last time I went they were sold out. Maybe an excuse for some new Belgium, which recently started to be distributed to FL.

TD

-edit - they've been backordered on AB for three weeks. None in stock.

 

[ultravista]

How would Maris Otter be as the base malt vs. pale 2-row? Wouldn't the M.O. produce a maltier beer?

 

[Trail]

How would Maris Otter be as the base malt vs. pale 2-row? Wouldn't the M.O. produce a maltier beer?

Maltier, arguably, but I don't detect a very Maris Otter-ey character in AB. Mash temp is where it's at.

 

[ultravista]

Maltier, arguably, but I don't detect a very Maris Otter-ey character in AB. Mash temp is where it's at.

What do you suggest as the target mash temp?