Berlinner Weisse Starter question

[iowarider]

Newbie to sour beer brewing here. I purchased Omega Yeast Labs 605 Lacto Blend and made a 1.035 starter. It seems that I didn't do enough research prior to making it however, as I put in on my stirplate with a foam stopper instead of an airlock. It's been there now around 36 hours.

This may be a dumb question, but, is it ruined? Or is this also a viable way to make a Lacto starter? I remember reading that lactobacillus works either aerobically or anaerobically, so I figured the intake of oxygen would help it reproduce. It's been in a homemade starter-warming chamber at a controlled 105 degrees.

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[ryanmbeal]

Probably depends. I'd taste it and see if it has produced acetic acid.

"Omega Yeast Labs reports that no noticeable acetic acid is produced if the oxygen is not purged with their OYL-605 Lactobacillus blend which contains L. plantarum, and brewers should not aerate wort during sour but purging O2 is not required [55]. L. brevis has been shown to increase growth rates in the presence of oxygen [13]."

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus#Effects_of_Oxygen

 

[iowarider]

Thanks! I'm assuming acetic acid would give a vinegar taste?

 

[crane]

Thanks! I'm assuming acetic acid would give a vinegar taste?

Yes

 

[iowarider]

Ok, so 36 hours in, I pulled out the foam stopper and placed a rubber stopper and airlock. It's been another 72 hours since then. I just tasted the starter, and its all funk, no sourness at all, but also no acetic acid taste or smell. Thoughts?

 

[xico]

If you aren't able to purge headspace, I don't know if the stir plate is the way to go. I like to fill a bottle with wort and minimize headspace surface area (small neck), add bugs and keep at your target temp. Generally I yield heavy growth within 36 hours.

Your lactobacilli are probably fine but oxygen will allow other organisms to take hold, which can be the funk. Molds will utilize oxygen in the headspace (every changing with a stirplate), and less pleasant bacteria can enjoy the conditions. If there is no sour I would be wary after that many days. If there is no puckering, then the pH didn't drop, which means other things have had time to get settled. If there is no acetic acid character on the nose then you didn't make ethanol which would turn to vinegar in presence of oxygen and the right organisms..

acidity and ethanol are the defense systems in place to protect our beverages, and ultimately us. for that reason I often add some lactic acid after the mash or boil of berliner weisses to put the pH in the 4.7-4.8 range. You may not have a pH meter, strips are alright for a ballpark but BrunWater has never let me down with my acid addition calculations and I find myself within 0.1 pH of my target with single additions (so long as you know your source water ions). This tends to slow the pick-up growth of the bacteria but it ensures e.coli or another charmer doesn't take up residence.

Any puke or poop smells and I would dump it. 100g of base malt in 1L starter will yield a healthy lacto starter culture. The benefit of making your own cultures for berliners is that you can smell and taste them before the pitch and get an idea of the kind of sourness you get. I am brewing a berliner on Friday and have been using two lactos that together make a delicious sweet lime sourness.

I have been underwhelmed with the commercial cultures I've used from the big two personally. L. delbreckii being a notable letdown several attempts.

 

[SanPancho]

I am brewing a berliner on Friday and have been using two lactos that together make a delicious sweet lime sourness.

Please, do tell.

 

[twistedjosh]

Please do... curious about this as well

 

[xico]

One is an isolate from a Berliner Weisse bottle found in Germany. The other is a culture swabbed off some surface in another brewery in Germany (I didn't take the sample myself). With a number of blind sensory tests we found most people picked the blend of cultures rather than on their own. I know it sounds much more attractive being yielded from unique places with stories but to be honest it isn't hard to get complex citrusy flavors from a Berliner using wild cultures I mentioned earlier.

The hunt for good bacteria is much easier and cheaper than good yeast. 2 lbs. of pilsen malt would yield a handful of complex lactic flavors used for future brews.

It's not uncommon to get bright, tart, citrus character from LAB (lactic acid bacteria), lactic acid lends itself well to that perception. But there is spectrum of citrusy flavors, some combinations of acids with esters enhance retronasal (in the mouth perception) associations. There are others that hold to a clean tartness with no citrus to speak of I like to use with dark malts since it plays nicely with the dried fruit and caramel associated some darker beers.

The best advice I could offer regarding good LAB for brewing is to store your bugs for future use once you like them. Lactics are harder to kill so don't worry about storing some in a bottle in your fridge (a beer bottle, filled with beer and bugs and capped is fine as long as there are no appreciable fermentables in there). I also like storing them in oak cubes/spheres/spirals, anything reusable (not oak chips) as well. After a fermentation with a bit of oak, I store the wood in distilled water in the fridge. Enough will make the wait to get a starter going in short order.


Edit: To add since this is often unclear, I do add yeast to my Berliners but don't pasteurize. Stage one is lactics, once target pH is reached (3.4-4.2 depending on aims) I crash the temp to sacch. preferences and pitch. I then use Brett. strain(s) to keg or bottle condition and carbonate (stored for 4-6 weeks).

 

[SanPancho]

so only one you're sure of (isolate from germany) and the other is a mix? no idea what the isolate is? or did you mean isolate that you only kept the LAB found and not any sach/brett?

 

[iowarider]

Thanks so much for the input! I'm in southern Wisconsin for a few days, going to try to grab another lacto blend while I'm up here (or wait and culture my own, haven't decided yet.) Also some lactic acid to pre-sour with and hopefully a pH meter so I can do it right this time. I haven't been able to justify the purchase of the pH meter before, but now that I'm doing sours it'll probably help keep me from fouling up as much.

 

[xico]

so only one you're sure of (isolate from germany) and the other is a mix? no idea what the isolate is? or did you mean isolate that you only kept the LAB found and not any sach/brett?

For my Berliners I use two lactic bacteria, one sacch, and then one or two Bretts for keg/bottle conditioning..

One lactic from a bottle from an old Berliner Brewery and the other is an isolate from another brewery that makes Berliners (I believe a sliver of oak from a beam in the ceiling of the brewery). The bottle yielded a sacch. and two bretts.


Iowarider, I would encourage you to spring for a pH meter when you can afford it. It will up your brew game for all brews. Exacting your mash pH will improve the flavors and efficiency of all your beers henceforth. For sours, it is important if you are looking to make a repeatable beer, but you could get away with litmus paper and tasting (just remember sour taste's more muted warm and flat than cool and carbonated).

It might be worth exploring the use of red cabbage to make a pH indicator if you are not ready to purchase a good meter. You can standardize a method (example, 200gs in 1 Liter of just-boiled water) to make an indicator and you can use in a titration with known pH of various materials to establish a color range. I use this indicator for science projects with my nieces and nephews. Food grade and colorful and gets the little ones interested engaged in learning.

For pH meters, please don't buy the cheapest thing you can find. Wait and save for something not at the basest price, you are getting what you pay for with pH sensors. Until you can afford a decent unit (60-120 dollars) and the fixings (calibration solutions, and storage solution to keep the sensor wet at all times will extend the life of the electrode by many months). If not you will surely pay more over time in repurchasing the unit, more electrodes, or a decent one to replace the mistake. Lots of things can be bought on the cheap for brewing, pH is not one of them.

 

[iowarider]

This is the meter I went with. http://www.milwaukeeinstruments.com.../103-products-g-martini-pocket-testers-g-ph55

I paid $49 for it. It has a resolution of 0.1 pH and a claimed accuracy of plus or minus the same.

From what I've read, the electrode should last about 6 months. Do more expensive ones last longer?

 

[xico]

That's an excellent meter, I have one myself and good job on the price! I have tested that next to their more expensive model and have always gotten within 0.1 but often spot on. The electrode can last longer if cared for. A couple of things I do to maintain it:

Keep it stored in either storage solution or pH 7.01 buffer. I reused the packet it came with and push it down so there is minimal air exchange to minimize evaporation.

Draw samples of 15-30 mLs (1/2 to 1 ounce) from the mash, let it cool down, and read the mash. It has a temp adjustment system that works alright but the higher range of a mash is the ceiling of it's capacity to operate.

The electrode has tiny holes in it to allow ions into the reader. If these holes get clogged by residual sugar, protein, or any other material from the mash future readings will drift and it will be harder to calibrate. I usually run it under water a few seconds, swirl it a little jar of vinegar I keep with it, another rinse of water, and then into the storage packet.

Enjoy, pH meters are an excellent item to add to the brewer's toolbox.

 

[redllama]

A little late to the party but I'll give my 2 cents on using OYL 605. I have used it multiple times on both the homebrew and pro scale and it's definitely easy to work with. I personally believe that a starter is not necessary as I was able to get 1 packet in a 10 gallon batch to drop the PH to 3.6ish for a berlinner in less than 24 hours. Cooled to 105ish, purged headspace with CO2 as best as possible, covered and put a space heater on the keggle to keep the temp up. Usually the next day the temp was in the mid 90s and had a nice funk to it. Quick 15 min boil to kill the lacto with one ounce of hallertau. Pitched US-05 and in about a week had a nice tart beer.