Advice on weird tasting kettle sour

[Krown]

Hello guys, I brewed my first kettle sour ever this weekend and would like to have your advice.

I made a 750mL 1.040 starter with DME dextrose, yeast nutrients and 50B lacto Plantatum (5 fresh probiotic pills). I smelled and tasted it after 24h at 80F and it had a dandelion/flower/citrus and even a slight rubber smell/aroma. It was really pronouncef and unpleasant. I unfortunately don't have a pH meter (yet... Getting a good one asap) but it tasted tart/sour even with all that residual sugar.
First question: Is it a common thing for pure lacto starter to smell that strong? If it was less intense it would have been an enjoyable smell. People seems to be reporting clean smelling starters.

After 24h, I pitched it at 90F in 4.5 pH wort that was boiled for 15 minutes and let it sour for 36 hours at RT. The wort tasted cleaner (rubber smell gone, strong dandelion honey, citrust zest, flowers but still way too strong) and more sour (maybe too much for what I am aiming). Wort gravity dropped by 2 pts. I boiled for 45 minutes with hopes that it would boil away some of the aroma but without much success. Same dominant flavors that would be enjoyable if they were only subtle... The hops helped to hide the taste a bit but not enough.

QuestionS #2: Again, is this common? Is that flavour/aroma going to mellow enough during fermentation to become enjoyable? To what compound could we attribute this taste? I was going to dryhop this beer and drink it fresh, should I try to age it instead? I was planning to dry hop, keg and add pasteurized fruit juice to keg if necessary...

You will find the recipe bellow as a reference, thank you all.

A scared but facinated bacteria newbie,

Batch Size: 5 Gallons
Boil Time: 45 minutes
OG: 1.050
IBU: 43.9

80% 2-Row Pale Malt (I am scared to do a 30 min boil with Pilsner Malt)
15% White Wheat Malt
5% Caramunich Malt

1 oz Mosaic @ 10 min
1 oz Mosaic @ 5 min
2 oz Mosaic @ 160F whirlpool 30 minutes
2 oz Mosaic @ Dry hop 4 days prior to kegging

Kettle Sour Lacto: OYL-605 Lacto Blend
Primary Yeast: WY3711 French Saison

 

[bigdawg86]

I have a kettle souring right now that smells like a hot crowded subway. That doesn't mean anything. I am not an expert, but you cannot judge anything by taste on unfermented / partially fermented wort. You just can't

I did a kettle sour that I went off taste of the unfermented wort and it turned out much more sour than expected (I liked it). All those unfermented sugars will lead you astray taste wise.

I had a beer that was absolutely terrible at tasting my 1 week gravity sample, but a cold crashed and kegged 1 week later it was a great beer.

Essentially my take is your at the point of no return, just commit, pitch your yeast and let it do it's thing. Also, I was under the impression that hop bitterness and sour are tough to get to play together nicely... I am curious on if 2 oz of hops (vs a 1/2oz) and another 4oz dry hops will help or hurt the beer. Keep us posted!

 

[Krown]

Thanks for the advice, it's giving me hope!

Although I am still curious to know if this is a common thing with kettle sour and what it can be attribuated to. The only thing I would do different next time is to pre acidify the starter as well... Maybe there was some kind of wild infection in there.

As for the hopping schedule, I tasted and enjoyed a few kettle sour that had a slight bitterness (maybe only from cold side?) and could not find the info regarding what is the maximum recommended IBU for a hoppy sour, so decided to aim for 30 IBU including whirlpool addition.

I will report the sample result at dryhopping and kegging! Feel free to chime in your input!

 

[Krown]

Update - Day 6 into fermentation

Sampled before dry hopping with 2 oz of Mosaic. Krausen mainly faded out around day 4, gravity is now at 1.007. I expect wy3711 to get it lower but maybe low pH will make it finish higher than usual.

Tasting... I am relieved!!! That strong aroma mellowed out a lot and is now very pleasant!!! The beer already taste great, refreshing acidity, taste citrusy, tropical fruits and honey. I get some slight fruit ester from the yeast but no phenols at all, overall clean fermentation. I started at 66F for 3 days and ramped to 70 for rest of fermentation.

The color looks great, deep golden color, heaven with low lighting.

The faded out krausen looks a bit weird. see picture bellow. I am not concerned with infection, it is probably just hop oils or what ever that bonded together to form those funny looking ''chains''.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Nice work, glad it turned out well for you!

I haven't made a Lacto starter but my souring wort smells like what I'd describe as "the forest after a warm rain".... just alive.

You may have had an infection in your starter and it may have come from the probiotic pills.
That said, I don't think pre-acidifying the starter is a good idea, acid restricts the growth of Lacto, which conflicts with the purpose of making a starter. You could try a different source of Lacto (different probiotic, lab culture, yogurt, etc.) next time.

Also note, most sours shoot for IBU around 5-10 or less. However Epic makes a sour IPA which I think is quite good and clocks in at 60 IBU, so it can be done.

Cheers!

 

[BrewSomeMore]

That's a definite infection. Can't really tell if it is lacto, kinda yellowish to me. Just monitor it, taste it, and let it ride if it is good.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's a definite infection.

?? How can you be so sure?

 

[BrewSomeMore]

Well, not being able to do DNA testing on the organism(s), I can't be 100% certain. But after looking on my computer instead of my phone screen, it could be yeast stands or two different cell populations. It does have this kinda ropey, sick look, like pedio or something. But hey, if it tastes good drink it.

 

[oceanic_brew]

Thanks for the advice, it's giving me hope!

Although I am still curious to know if this is a common thing with kettle sour and what it can be attribuated to. The only thing I would do different next time is to pre acidify the starter as well... Maybe there was some kind of wild infection in there.

As for the hopping schedule, I tasted and enjoyed a few kettle sour that had a slight bitterness (maybe only from cold side?) and could not find the info regarding what is the maximum recommended IBU for a hoppy sour, so decided to aim for 30 IBU including whirlpool addition.

I will report the sample result at dryhopping and kegging! Feel free to chime in your input!

When I build lacto starters I pre acidify the wort down to 4.2 before inoculating. It can go a long way in preventing some unwanted microbes from getting a foothold. The only times I haven't done this I had enterobacter infections. My entire basement smelled like baby vomit and old cheese.

I also pre acidify the wort that receives the starter.

All the reading that I've done points to a PH of 4.2 being favorable for growth of lacto while prohibiting other bacteria.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I believe anywhere from 4 to 4.5 is ok ... Combined with usual sanitation practices
If memory serves, under 4.5 is specifically to inhibit Clostridium botulinum... which you DEFINITELY don't want.

But for making starters ... Lacto growth is also inhibited by a low pH, so if you pre-acidity the starter and/or don't use a buffer you will not hit your target cell count. But hey if it's working for you then no worries.

Cheers