all grain wash water to grain ratio

[Bubbles2]

So First wash and started over at the Beer recipe calc but do not think that is going to jibe with what I seek. Looking to do a 95 rye 5 barley all grain but only want to try 2 gallons. I am going to use Turbo Yeast, I was wondering about the ratio of grain to water. In my case I am doing a 95 - 5 and I'd like to end with 2 gallons of wash.
From what I gather there is no reason to Boil rather just hold the grain at 150ºf for 60min up to 90min to get my fermentables (correct?) I would think that I can use DME to bring up the Start Gravity but did not want to taint the wash with too much DME. Looking for a Rye and not a lot of base malt DME in it.

Hence my question to get a 20% finished gravity to run. I guess the question is the max ratio grain to water...?

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi Bubbles2. Sorry, not a brewer but a wine maker and as such I would think that looking for a specific ratio of water to grain may not be the most effective approach. If you know how many pounds of grain you need to extract the amount of sugar you want to make the ale you need at the volume you want to end up with then you simply need to add on the volume of water you assume will be lost to absorption by the grainin the mash and lost to evaporation during the boil*. For 2 gallons I would imagine that you are talking about 5 lbs of grain (for a wort with a gravity of about 1.050) and about 3 gallons of water.

*If you intend to use this wort for distillation I think you may need to boil the wort and a temperature of 150 is going to be too low to remove the protein in the grain. I repeat I am not a brewer but I would imagine that boiling the wort forces the proteins to drop out of solution (what brewers refer to as the "protein break") and if you are distilling beer then any protein not removed during the brewing process may create a very real problem during distillation as the boiling beer will create an enormous amount of froth that will enter the condenser in what distillers refer to as "puke" and rather than collect ethanol at the end you will be collecting beer. But brewers may laugh my this post.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi Bubbles2, I don't consider myself a brewer: I make wine and mead but two thoughts strike me - a "ratio" of water to grain may not be the best way to think about this - though brewers may disagree. You are presumably looking for a final ABV and that is determined by the amount of sugar you can extract from grain. I would think for 2 gallons you are looking for something like 5 lbs of grain to be mashed in about 3 - 4 gallons of water.

Of course, you can use as much water as you want. You are not aiming to drink this beer at say 5% ABV. What you are doing is obtaining alcohol from a certain amount of fermentable sugars and that quantity does not change - whether it is 2% or 10% ABV. The actual amount of ethanol in solution will be the same - the ethanol quantity being totally dependent on a) the amount of grains you used to extract the sugars and b) your ability to coax the yeast to convert those sugars into alcohol BUT, the more water to ethanol in your beer the more energy you will need to apply to the total volume of liquid to collect the ethanol at your desired proof. If your ale is at say , 5% and you are making two gallons the most ethanol you can collect is about 400 ml at about 190 proof (or 800 ml at 95 proof).

You suggest that you don't need to boil your wort but I think that if you intend to distill this beer you may need to remove the proteins that will be in the wort. Boiling will provide the wort with what brewers refer to as a protein break - the point where the heat forces proteins to drop out of solution. The problem is that if there is significant protein (gluten) in the beer those molecules will cause the beer in your still to froth enough to force beer (not steam) to rise up in your condenser and you will be collecting what distillers call "puke" in your collection jars, puke and not ethanol.

As I say, I am not a brewer and brewers may laugh at my post.

 

[Bubbles2]

thanks Bernard, it is 1.25qt to 1lb there about so you are real close on the numbers.
This I learned after a few hours of reading since this post.

Yes Protein rest I do remember that at 180ºf is why the partial brewers (such as myself) do that.
Thank you for reminding me, of what I had forgotten.

 

[bleme]

This thread got me wondering, is there any advantage of Turbo yeast over kveik?

 

[Bubbles2]

This thread got me wondering, is there any advantage of Turbo yeast over kveik?

Over at Clawhammer they mention that anything over 15 abv is really pushing it which I think the Kveik or even 1118 will do

 

[Bubbles2]

Turbo yeast is prob like Panoramic Wi fi....LOL Like we all have heavy machinery in our homes

 

[Bubbles2]

After watching 5 videos NONE gave it a lock out. They all took it to 152ºf Mash and left it until ready to transfer to ferment. FWIW. Maybe the protein rest is along the lines of clarity for beer...?

 

[Beerswimmer]

Please don't use Turbo yeast, it makes everything taste terrible. Seriously, throw it away. Pushing a wash past 10% will also usually end up being bad. I aim for 2lbs of grain per gallon of water for AG mashes and a 1.065 OG to get ~6-9% abv. Stressing yeast gives bad flavors and smells. Use your kveik, US-05, etc... Good tasting mash = good distillate. Simple bread yeast actually makes excellent whisky and rums.

 

[Bubbles2]

From what I gather, Turbo Yeast is a strain that prob is tolerant to higher ABV, coupled with Yeast Nute and Dead yeast holes (food) Like I use in the last 15min of Boil, I'll take the Trub (mostly yeast) of the last batch and I always have about 1/2 cup left over after making my next starter and I toss that into the kettle for yeast food.
Now mind you I make wine too. I just bottled a Guava (using 1118) that came back at a start of 1100 down to 0989 14.5% abv. No off flavors. I do this quite often. I reserved 2 gallons of it to run...So I will run 14.5%, and on the next run I will add the Tails to the next run, which is prob up even higher...So first run I'll get about 40% of hearts, and then whatever the tails are, I will add to the next run of the second gallon of say 30% and the 14.5% and then combine the first and second hearts and some of the tails for a bit of flavor.
I appreciate Beerswimers comment and maybe it is his/her experience that brought to that conclusion. However it reminds me of Wormwood and Absynth (Zero hallucinogenic qualities, just a jackovv show at a bar with spoons) wives tale that just got passed on and on. If you can run a high abv such as 1118 because of it's tolerance, (like my wine) then indeed it is intolerant and designed or bred that way (right?) I would thing that a bread yeast would be the one that would stress more, however yeast is yeast and the conditions and strains are what predicates it's tolerance and strengths

We do not buy bread at the house we bake all. (we use yeast every other day) I laugh at some of the conditions people use to protect their yeast, like when harvesting or starters...Yeast is Yeast. We microwave water to 100º and pitch. I see where people state; "You gotta boil the water for 15 minutes!" This is to remove o2 out of h2o, So I am left with H ? Just because you have been doing something for years does not mean you cannot learn from a beginner video right? So I go back and watch some here is one on Yeast. (see link) If you have no time but want to see Dady yeast or Turbo yeast; as it is prob being marketed as... Start at 11:50 at bread and it goes into Dady or Turbo. I appreciate you guys chiming in.



I am still going to run that 3lbs to 1 gallon over here. Get it a bit taller. I appreciate that you run strip runs to get yourself there and if I had a traditional 7gal (down the road) I'd prob be inclined. However I am trying out a 1 run countertop modified deal with good revues from a 3rd gen distiller. I am using quality grain and not Tractor Corn, so some congers might be appreciated... Unknown?

 

[Beerswimmer]

I still suggest using tried and true yeasts for distilling that aren't "Turbo" yeasts. In distilling circles everyone tries them when they are first getting started and then switch to better yeasts. Why? Because it tastes bad. Why go through the trouble to make something that tastes bad? I myself used Turbo when I first started because of the hype of 20% ferments and saving time etc....But it just made bad booze. It's good for fuel though.

Bread yeast is great when fermented warm, around 85F. Makes great rum and whiskey and is cheap. 118 is good for fruit washes, DADY is a good all around yeast. Turbo yeast is a really bad yeast. It can tolerate high abv for making fuel. But tastes bad and makes a lot of heads. If you must use it, use half the recommended amount and don't push the abv past 10%. Don't try and push the abv past 10% for any yeast, it ends up tasting bad when distilled. I haven't tried any White Labs distillers yeast, but I'm sure that they're pretty good. I've used Nottingham to make great whisky in the past too. US-05 is a little bland. Kviek and hefeweiss and Belgian yeast are being used for their esters. I'll be making a batch of rum with Voss soon!

I'm glad that you are experimenting! Please try an experiment where you make a wash and ferment portions with different yeasts to see what YOU like the best. Try making a wash at 8-9% and one at 20% and try the difference. I have.

I would do some reading in the tried and true section of the homedistiller forums to get going in the right direction off the bat. Learning from other's mistakes before you start is the best advice.

This is a great hobby, but experimenting will show you what makes things taste better. I only make whisky and rums now, so getting a good flavor is my #1 goal. Even if you're making vodka or neutral you still need to have a good flavor. Enjoying the product is the payoff, much like brewing beer.

ETA: You're using a small distiller. Then I would absolutely try to make as little heads as possible with good yeast, a good abv, and a good process. You'll want to have more good stuff to keep!

 

[Beerswimmer]

Also a one-and-done distillation isn't done very often. Almost everyone(except maybe giant commercial distilleries, but we're talking small hobby level) does fast strips and then a slow spirit run. It helps to separate the cuts better, increases the output abv and volume, and most prefer the taste.

Just sayin.

 

[Bubbles2]

To be clear, I am not sold on Turbo yeast and did not plan to use it, it is being "thrown in" with my purchase. I would think that it's Dady in reality, with Yeast Nute and Dead Yeast cells or whatever they are using to then market as Turbo Yeast. To sell it for some ridiculous cost because it will handle a Sugar head of 1130 start.
My 14.5% is the result of 1118 and the other two wines of which are Red Star, which I expect to finish at 990 will be 14.5% too. I have another batch of Apple Banana using Star that I took to 1100 and expect it to go to 990. Mind you these are left for almost 4 months with rackings. I do realize many do as they do beer, try to get it done to run it...Speaking of which, If you were to run Faints would again worry about foreshots? Would they not be all dispensed the first time around? I was reading and could not find out if that is a thing. Say you run a strip run, remove foreshots, run a second strip with the same batch and nothing else added as in more of the wort/wash. Just the captured strip less foreshots. Would I just then consider the next strip with heads and no foreshots?

 

[Beerswimmer]

You're probably right about Turbo being regular DADY yeast with nutes. It's the use of Turbo and and too high OG that causes most of the problems. Honestly, if you are doing and AG mash, or fruits you probably don't need any nutes if you keep the OG at a reasonable level. 14.5% is pushing into too high IMO.

Have you tried cold crashing to get the mashes/washes to clear? 4 months is a pretty long wait.

Always take out the fores. Always. They will be in a smaller amount, but potstills are the least efficient at separating the fractions, so they smear into heads and early hearts a bit and they will still be present in strips. And even a little(VERY small amounts, but still there) in hearts a bit from a potstill.

 

[Bubbles2]

You're probably right about Turbo being regular DADY yeast with nutes. It's the use of Turbo and and too high OG that causes most of the problems. Honestly, if you are doing and AG mash, or fruits you probably don't need any nutes if you keep the OG at a reasonable level. 14.5% is pushing into too high IMO.

Have you tried cold crashing to get the mashes/washes to clear? 4 months is a pretty long wait.

Always take out the fores. Always. They will be in a smaller amount, but potstills are the least efficient at separating the fractions, so they smear into heads and early hearts a bit and they will still be present in strips. And even a little(VERY small amounts, but still there) in hearts a bit from a potstill.

Thanks for the heads up on the Foreshots, appreciate it.

Those 14.5% are Fruit Wine(s)

The All grain, I am about to embark on here in a couple days, since my 55lb bag of Rye just hit the front the door. I am aiming for a 1080-1100, I can always fortify with a bit of DME if my Mash was off. However, I am getting pretty good doing my partials where they state to just warm up and pull at 180ºf. Instead I hold at 150º for 30 in the kettle and this allows me to save .25lb of DME opposed to partial instructions.
I am going step it for the Rye. 110º for 30min 150ºf for 30min mash 90 (in a bag) Pull Rinse with 1/3 gallon Boil for 30 if DME is required after checking PH value, yes Gypsum at start of steps. Let cool / cold crash, siphon off clean wort, pitch, Still wondering about yeast strain, I have an 05 sitting under 5gal of Anchor Steam Clone, not sure if I will harvest it is coming off a 1050, EDIT 1054 (which now I am going to reserve 1 gal of this and run it before attempting a 95-5 rye AG) Yeast should be pretty strong and def a hell of a starter. Or just use a 1118 with some Yeast Nute.
Again the Unit I have is unknown, countertop deal... I am going to run 2 gallons of wine 14.5 to get a feel for it and then run a rye. IT is a 1 gallon deal so it will take a few runs to get that done. Big ol mystery, like the first time I rebuilt a carburetor.
Behold the wine....One batch of 3 over here

 

[Beerswimmer]

I would use the 05 everyday over 1118 for grains. 1118 is best used with fruits since it's so neutral.

Be sure to do a proper cleaning run or 2 before making something you intend to drink. Do 1/2 water and vinegar first, then all water or junk alcohol to throw away. It'll run different with vinegar and water, and hotter, since there is no alcohol.

Be sure to collect in very small amounts, like 200ml, during the run to be able to make good cuts later. And leave them in the jars with a breatheable cover like a coffee filter or paper towel to air out for 24hrs before making your cuts. I like to start in the middle jars where known hearts are and work towards the tails first, then the other way to the heads. Sniffing heads will blow out your nose and you'll have trouble smelling anything after a while. Be sure to water down samples to smell and taste when you get to a possible cut spot. Watering down will help to bring out tails and heads a bit.

The rule of thumb for estimating the amount of keep I use is a conservative 10% of a 10% wash. So if I want a good 1 gallon of keep I need to distill 10 gallons of 10% mash. But your taste and a million other factors will come into play. It's just a simple calculation I use when I plan to fill barrels of certain sizes.

Good luck with your runs! Post up your results, and we all like pics!