Advice needed: should I upgrade to a HERMS system

[Surgicalbrews]

I have been all grain brewing for about 4 years now, I use a 15 gallon kettle, 10 HLT, igloo cooler mashtun. The wife has given me the ok, and I have the money to spend. My question is, is it worth it. Will it make better beer. I make pretty good brew as is, will this just complicate things and waste money and time, or will it help me make better beer? Anyone have experience with this please chime in!

 

[jekeane]

I have a three vessel Eherms System and I love it. Repeatability and truly dialing in a process are benefits. Better beer is debatable at best.

I started with a setup similar to yours and while I was building my system I started doing biab.

If I hadn't already invested in custom welded kettles I probably would have stuck with biab.

I would either way transition to electric again.

 

[Surgicalbrews]

I currently use propane with the ability to use natural gas, either way it would be manually fired, no controller. I don't have any electrical know how.

 

[brick_haus]

I would recommend getting HLT automation in place along with HERMS.

 

[LarMoeCur]

I brewed for 10 years with a cooler mash tun. It was nerve racking to say the least. Strike in and hope your temp was spot on. 3 degrees high run around like Curly and add cold water. 3 degrees low get slapped by Moe and add hot water. Tracking recipes was ridiculous if you change the grain to water ratio you had better know by how much and write it down. Otherwise if it was the greatest beer ever you may not be able to reproduce it. Now I just set the temp on my herms and watch. I made some great beer in a cooler but it was a difficult process. I would upgrade to a HERMS in a heart beat.

 

[Surgicalbrews]

Even if it were a manual system, have no idea nor the electrical know how to automate

 

[jekeane]

Even if it were a manual system, have no idea nor the electrical know how to automate

Have you changed out a light switch or electrical outlet in your house? That was about the cap of my electrical experience before build an ebrewsupply panel kit.

I personally would not do a herms system without some type of control unit.

 

[jrcrilly]

Even if it were a manual system, have no idea nor the electrical know how to automate

It is simpler than it may seem.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/brews-controlling-gas-fired-burners.html

 

[oujens]

I have been all grain brewing for about 4 years now, I use a 15 gallon kettle, 10 HLT, igloo cooler mashtun. The wife has given me the ok, and I have the money to spend. My question is, is it worth it. Will it make better beer. I make pretty good brew as is, will this just complicate things and waste money and time, or will it help me make better beer? Anyone have experience with this please chime in!

If you are looking to improve your beer, do you think sinking some $$$ is going to change that? Have you reviewed everything going into your process? It seems to me that these systems have their benefits, but a lot of it is the fun of building it yourself and/or enjoying the process. For me, it just seemed too complicated and more work than I wanted to do. I admire a lot of the setups around here with these complex systems, but they didn't fit what I wanted to get out of brewing.

I recently ditched my mash tun in favor of BIAB and couldn't be happier. I like the simplicity of it, and it turns out it's a very consistent process for me. Would you be happy with it too? I don't know, really just depends what you are seeking. I thought about doing the same thing as you but didn't feel I would enjoy it. That's a lot of money to spend, but do what will make you happy. Just be sure your not doing it trying to chase that "perfect" beer. How will you feel if you make the same beer as you were before? What if you spent that money upgrading your kettle? Going electric? Etc. Lots of things to consider to make your brew day enjoyable.

 

[Sammy86]

I would agree with @oujens sinking money into a 3 vessel herms isn't necessarily going to help you make better beer...repeatability definitely.

Yes they are nice to have and show off but they have their own issues as well...learning the system water amounts, effiencies, etc.

Now don't get me wrong I've been brewing consistently now for three years in the kitchen and out on the new deck with a propane burner and I'm already tired of lugging around hot water and wort around.

I can't imagine doing it for 10-20 years...but until I have the funds and new home and the SWMBO stops wanting to have babies I'll be lugging around hot water and wort...mark my words I'm getting my electric 3 vessel system one day!

 

[d3track]

At the point you are at with not wanting to automate, I would look into fermentation control if you don't already have that.

 

[schematix]

If i had to start over i'd do a 2 vessel no-sparge system with a RIMS (i am no HERMS fan). You need to oversize your MLT a little but its less expensive than buying 2 separate vessels.

 

[Dfitz]

Never used any other process than eHERMs. I was a bit in lack of confidence but had some electrical knowledge. Built my panel according to electric brewery (I'd use a DSPR1 rather than a PID for boil) but following those directions built a nice controller. Also using the PDF available (or the online instruction) built a nice herms system. It makes great beer. Haven't been brewing long but brew better beer than I can buy.

It costs a bit but the end result is worth it I think

 

[augiedoggy]

I have been all grain brewing for about 4 years now, I use a 15 gallon kettle, 10 HLT, igloo cooler mashtun. The wife has given me the ok, and I have the money to spend. My question is, is it worth it. Will it make better beer. I make pretty good brew as is, will this just complicate things and waste money and time, or will it help me make better beer? Anyone have experience with this please chime in!

for me it has made things a lot easier and a lot more fun... one of the improvements is repeatability to make the same beer over and over and have it come out the same. I used a herms first but for me I never got it to work correctly some of this was due to using only 25ft of coil and eneven hlt temps. So then I played with a few styles of rims until I settled on a design that allows me to step mash fairly quickly, I built mine on a budget so cost was a factor and I spend about $1300 on my brewery minus my conicals but including everything else like the the control panel I built and stir motor for my hop spider and even motorized grain mill. With electric theres no functional added value in spending more for heavy kettles since it heats from an element inside the kettle, also I was about practical use of looks so no TC fittings on the hot side for me. I find camlocks and weldless fittings offer better flexibility and made things easy to configure or reconfigure when I decided to change something in my process. I use cheap $18 food grade 3gpm pumps which work great and allow me to hard plumb everything so no moving hoses around while brewing.

I will say its tough to resist the urge to act on the bling factor... everyone likes shiny stainless but its not always the best setup for everyone especially if your not even sure you want a full blown 3 vessel system yet.

I also agree that fermentation temp control is one of the biggest improvements one could make and should be a priority over fancy brewing setups...

 

[Geronimo13]

I'd agree with Augie, the electric setup can be nice but I think I'd spend the money first on fermentation control - I used a freezer with an inkbird temp controller - Craigslist = cheap freezer. I think that made the biggest difference in consistency and quality for me. That being said I did buy Bobby M's old keggles and build my own eherms setup and would recommend it (or a rims system) to someone that wants to go that route.

 

[LarMoeCur]

I have been all grain brewing for about 4 years now, I use a 15 gallon kettle, 10 HLT, igloo cooler mashtun. The wife has given me the ok, and I have the money to spend. My question is, is it worth it. Will it make better beer. I make pretty good brew as is, will this just complicate things and waste money and time, or will it help me make better beer? Anyone have experience with this please chime in!

I brewed with a cooler and keggle for 10 years. In those 10 years I would have told you that there is no way you can make better beer. Well, I built a Kal Clone three vessel electric and I'm here tell you I was wrong. I believe it will help you make better beer.

It allows you the time to focus on the critical steps that make beer better. It takes the guess work out of mash temperatures. Set and forget unlike the fussing with a cooler. What I call the Strike and Pray method of mashing. Add the strike water and pray you hit your number. Just a few degrees difference in mash temp will yield a different beer.


Brewing great beer is controlling the variables. You will be adding automation, gauges, and control units to your brewery which control brewing process variables very accurately. Adding controls that simplify the brewing process can only lead to better beer.

I also have to agree with the fermentation posts. The variables I talk about go right out the window if your not fermenting accurately with controls in place for that. And I would build a controlled fermentation vessel before I upgraded my brewery.

 

[Surgicalbrews]

I like the technology and the process, and yes I want repeatable and great beer. My process is always improving, always learning, not sure what I will do but will decide soon hopefully

 

[jmark]

...and stir motor for my hop spider...

This is intriguing - please tell us more!

 

[stevehaun]

I agree with all the comments about tight control of fermentation temp. That was the one thing that made the biggest difference in my beer. I brewed with a cooler mash tun for many years then switched to a 3 vessel herms about 2005. I do not think herms made nearly as much difference as controlling fermentation temp.

 

[DasBierBaron]

My vote is for eBIAB. Simple, relatively inexpensive, saves time brewing and cleaning, less stuff to store, and repeat-ability.

 

[augiedoggy]

This is intriguing - please tell us more!

I took a 24 volt dc motor and attached a stir rod to it Which I control with a pwm controller. I use this inside of my hop spider to basically Whirlpool the Hops in the spider and keep them from settling to the bottom and plugging up the spider walls. It keeps them in suspension better and I believe it helps with hop utilization.

 

[jmark]

That sounds like a cool idea... for lesser hopped beers I just toss them in without using my spider, but for something with a boatload of hops I've been looking for an answer to a caked up spider and this might do the trick. Thanks!

 

[Surgicalbrews]

Fermentation control is taKen care of I can fit 4 vessels in my ferm chamber, meticulous abiut ferm temp, pitching temp, adequate yeast numbers.

I rarely check my mash temp, I do the calculations add the strike water at the appropriate Temp and mash. The whole adding more water, to cool or heat was a pita, so I said screw it. When I do check I usually am within a degree of what I am shooting for both at the beginning and end of mash.

I believe I am going to go with 3 20 gallon SS pots, recirculate in my mash tun, then fly sparge. I want to be able to break everything down and store in my garage storage closet. This will be a stepping stone to full automation, or just give in and buy a spike turn key system lol

 

[murphyslaw]

I'm in the same boat as you, Surgicalbrews.

I think its about better beer in part, but not simply by virtue of have fancier equipment. When I started, the challenge was in building a system and learning to use it to produce good beer. Tons of fun! But now I've gotten my process down and I consistently make good beer. These days I want to focus on recipes and tweaks to make my beer great. Things like trying to hit a mash temp was challenging at first, but now its just annoying. I'm tired of doing the fire drill of that goes something like this: (1) checking HLT--I need 10 more degrees; (2) go find something useful to do while I wait (feed the kids, clean up the yard, use the bathroom, etc); (3) return to check HLT--crap, 190*; (4) is that rain? why didn't i check the weather? where did I put the rope and tarp? (5) add ice/hot water; (6) mash in and see i'm 3 degrees low; (7) quick heat up water and add to hit mash temp; (8) return after mashing and see that I lose 6 degrees over the course of my mash anyway. HERMS seems like a great way to avoid all of this.

The other huge benefit that interests me is time. I probably waste 30+ minutes every brew day adjusting temperatures. By setting my HLT to X I could avoid that AND give something else my attention (like my kids) without constantly running back to check the temp. Shorter brew days + less intrusive brew day = more brew days.

I don't see a big advantage in an electric BK over propane, except the ability to be indoors. That's attractive to me, but then I've got to worry about ventilation and I don't want some janky-looking exhaust system in my basement/workshop. So I'm thinking of of turning a smaller pot into a HERMS HLT to run on an extension cord. That would let me heat the water to X temp and circulate the mash to maintain the temperature.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm in the same boat as you, Surgicalbrews.

I think its about better beer in part, but not simply by virtue of have fancier equipment. When I started, the challenge was in building a system and learning to use it to produce good beer. Tons of fun! But now I've gotten my process down and I consistently make good beer. These days I want to focus on recipes and tweaks to make my beer great. Things like trying to hit a mash temp was challenging at first, but now its just annoying. I'm tired of doing the fire drill of that goes something like this: (1) checking HLT--I need 10 more degrees; (2) go find something useful to do while I wait (feed the kids, clean up the yard, use the bathroom, etc); (3) return to check HLT--crap, 190*; (4) is that rain? why didn't i check the weather? where did I put the rope and tarp? (5) add ice/hot water; (6) mash in and see i'm 3 degrees low; (7) quick heat up water and add to hit mash temp; (8) return after mashing and see that I lose 6 degrees over the course of my mash anyway. HERMS seems like a great way to avoid all of this.

The other huge benefit that interests me is time. I probably waste 30+ minutes every brew day adjusting temperatures. By setting my HLT to X I could avoid that AND give something else my attention (like my kids) without constantly running back to check the temp. Shorter brew days + less intrusive brew day = more brew days.

I don't see a big advantage in an electric BK over propane, except the ability to be indoors. That's attractive to me, but then I've got to worry about ventilation and I don't want some janky-looking exhaust system in my basement/workshop. So I'm thinking of of turning a smaller pot into a HERMS HLT to run on an extension cord. That would let me heat the water to X temp and circulate the mash to maintain the temperature.

well a couple big advantages of an Electric BK would be you can avoid boil overs super easily (which Is how I brewed 11 gallons of beer in a 13gallon kettle for a couple years) just set the pid to 207 and it will stop there and set off an alarm, at that point you switch to manual control to babysit it for the 3 minutes or so to get past the hop break point... if you turn off your element the foaming pre building boil over will start dissolving away instantly, with a triclad bottom or a gass of electric range burner this wouldnt happen since the bottom would have a certain amount of heat built in and there would be a delay causing boil over.

The other advantage is you can dial in your boil off rate exactly.. (example 78% on the pid in manual mode may equal exactly 1 gallon per hour boil off)

oh and you dont have to worry about running out of propane... it costs me like $1.50 in electric to brew 10 gallons of beer

 

[murphyslaw]

well a couple big advantages of an Electric BK would be you can avoid boil overs super easily (which Is how I brewed 11 gallons of beer in a 13gallon kettle for a couple years) just set the pid to 207 and it will stop there and set off an alarm, at that point you switch to manual control to babysit it for the 3 minutes or so to get past the hop break point... if you turn off your element the foaming pre building boil over will start dissolving away instantly, with a triclad bottom or a gass of electric range burner this wouldnt happen since the bottom would have a certain amount of heat built in and there would be a delay causing boil over.

The other advantage is you can dial in your boil off rate exactly.. (example 78% on the pid in manual mode may equal exactly 1 gallon per hour boil off)

oh and you dont have to worry about running out of propane... it costs me like $1.50 in electric to brew 10 gallons of beer

Good points. I'd like to go all-electric eventually. I thought an electric HLT might be a good first step. Ventilation concerns me. I think we're going to outgrow our house in 2-3 years, so I'd rather not do something too permanent. But perhaps something like this could work: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=418665

 

[PlexVector]

...

Hey! you added a sight glass to the middle of your RIMs since I last saw it. Is this to see when you need to break it down for extensive cleaning?

 

[augiedoggy]

Hey! you added a sight glass to the middle of your RIMs since I last saw it. Is this to see when you need to break it down for extensive cleaning?

yeah one of the reasons... also to see if it has been drained completely as well as the color of my sparge water after its passed through the grain bed... and because I had been bit by the bling bug at the time... I added a lot of things since then..

 

[Dcpcooks]

I have been all grain brewing for about 4 years now, I use a 15 gallon kettle, 10 HLT, igloo cooler mashtun. The wife has given me the ok, and I have the money to spend. My question is, is it worth it. Will it make better beer. I make pretty good brew as is, will this just complicate things and waste money and time, or will it help me make better beer? Anyone have experience with this please chime in!

It's such a loaded question! Can temp control improve your beer? Absolutely it can. Is the mash the bast place to spend your money? Probably not.

As many have already said your better off controlling fermentation than mash temps. Your yeast will thank you with better beer. I'd buy a fermentation chamber before I worried about mash temps. In hind site that's #1 on the list of to do's. if you have that already then yes go for it. A herms or a rims system can help make better beer. But that comes at a cost. Pumps, coils new gear and such. The reality is your never really done with expanding your brewhouse until your done expending your brewhouse.

 

[Sadu]

I built myself a 10 liter electric kettle for brewing small 5 liter test batches (which I brew a lot of). Kettle has a 2000w element, ball valve, thermowell, built-in copper IC.

Then I realised that I could use the IC as a HERMS coil to stabilise mash temps on my larger batches. Still waiting for parts to arrive but real keen to see how this works out. Like someone mentioned above, it's more about avoiding the dancing around trying to hit a temperature for 30 mins while I have better things to do.