Best investment in brewery?

[sunbeam]

Hi all, I'm seeking some advice from those who have gone a few steps ahead of me in brewing. I've put about 60 batches behind me, mostly on a very basic system of an 8 gallon kettle, immersion chiller, converted cooler MT and a big aluminum pot for the HLT. Heat source is a 2-burner toastmaster commercial gas hotplate, 25k BTU per burner. Fermenting in carboys and buckets. I've been looking at HERMS and RIMS setups and wondering if this might improve my efficiency. I'm working on a tight budget and would like to allocate limited resources according to best returns. What was the best bang for the buck investment you made into your equipment? I have two cut out brewery kegs to start with, and I think the fittings from my kettle would swap over to increase my boil capacity, but before I spend the dough on a pump and stainless coil and fittings I'd like to know if it will be worth it or just more stuff to clean?

 

[fluketamer]

anecdotally, probably just more stuff to clean for a limited return on efficiency. i have come to the realization that a lot of the stuff in my brewery is probably unnecessary toys that make it fun but dont make better beer necessarily.

 

[McBrewall]

For me, it was a conical fermenter and temperature control of the fermenter. This made a difference in the beer taste. No more fusel alcohol, oxygenation (closed loop transfers), or other off flavors.

 

[Zenmeister]

For me, it was a conical fermenter and temperature control of the fermenter. This made a difference in the beer taste. No more fusel alcohol, oxygenation (closed loop transfers), or other off flavors.

Exactly this. Temperature control is everything for me, and has radically improved the quality of my beer.

 

[fluketamer]

i assumed the op meant in terms of rims vs herms not any piece of equipment. i still think thats what he/she meant. we have had a few threads on best overall brewery investment and yes for me it was temp control but i assumed the op already had that covered and was talking about efficiency increase from recirculating wort.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

If you're on a tight budget I'd skip moving to a herms system, save up for that and get it down the road. And as others have mentioned, your beer will improve more significantly from upgrading your cold side equipment, temp control ferments and closed transfers. If you're stuck on getting better efficiency look into getting a grain mill and mill your own at the proper gap setting barley, wheat, and oats. A lot of efficiency issues are due to improper milling.

 

[sibelman]

I agree with the above.

temperature control

could improve beer quality.

An adjustable mill could help with efficiency. Imagined efficiency gains probably don't justify the cost of recirculation equipment. They may not even occur!

 

[sunbeam]

Thanks! I will start looking for a deal on a conical and try to get control of fermentation temperatures. One of the main flaws in my beers is that buttery diacetyl taste which can be masked with a sure hop levels in a NEIPA, but I brew lagers mostly. Usually if I'm doing a lager in the warmer months I have a refrigerator to place the fermenter in. In winter I just put it in a cool closet

 

[Whisky River]

If you like to do lagers and already have a fermentation fridge you might just make sure you have an inkbird or some other temperature control device and skip looking for a conical. I know they’re shiny and cool but they just aren’t that practical for the way a lot of people brew. Most conicals won’t fit in a small fridge, they cost $$$ for what you get, and they add a huge increase in cleaning time and hassle. You might look at the thread on turning a Fermonster into closed transfer system.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...lete-closed-transfer-system-for-cheap.680992/

The Fermonster can be a very flexible system if you DIY a few things but you can probably do as much or more with the Fetmzilla or one of the other plastic vessels.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter what you ferment in, as long as you can control heat and cooling, and can do oxygen free transfers.

 

[sibelman]

have a fermentation fridge you might just make sure you have an inkbird or some other temperature control device

This works well indeed.

oxygen free transfers.

This is also important.

 

[Stikius]

Improving efficiency would probably be very expensive with very limited gains. I would argue that the best investment would be either on the cold side or on the actual space you brew in.

I would probably prioritize temp control and closed transfers since this can radically improve the quality of the beer. But next I would focus on what could improve my brew day. Is it possible to attach the kettle to something that can be tilted so you can just spray with a hose to get all the nasties out (providing you brew outside or have a drain close by)? Do you have room for storage so you can buy in bulk and don't have to visit the LHBS every time you brew?
One of my best investments was when I started using a floating hydrometer (RAPT Pill). I haven't abandoned measuring OG and FG manually, but I don't have to worry about taking samples all the time and I still know exactly what is going on inside the FV at any given time. Another was to waterproof the room I brew in so I don't have to worry about making a mess when I clean.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm working on a tight budget and would like to allocate limited resources according to best returns. What was the best bang for the buck investment you made into your equipment?

3500W (240V) Induction burner! <$200 !
I brew indoors, in the kitchen, and haven't brewed on the gas rig since.

I've been looking at HERMS and RIMS setups and wondering if this might improve my efficiency.

1. If you're not milling your own malt, maybe start there to get better control over your grist and thus mash efficiency? Most stores mill rather coarsely, especially small-kernel grain/malts (wheat, rye, oats, etc.) don't get crushed adequately.

2. That also allows you to buy base malts by the sack, if you can. That could save a few bucks each brew.

3. Your converted cooler mash tun is likely still the best choice. It should keep the mash temps even, and you don't need a pump and recirc stuff. For step mashes, cereal mashes, decoction mashes, etc. you can use your brew kettle (or HLT). Then use your mash tun for longer rests and/or just lautering/sparging.

4. I've found 2x batch sparging (equal volumes) still the easiest, flexible, and arguably the most efficient for 5 and 10 gallon batches.

I have two cut out brewery kegs to start with

Do you want to start brewing 10 gallon batches?

 

[hottpeper13]

For me it is my membership in the MBAA and the 2 week brewing and malting course at UW Madison. The title is BEST INVESTMENT, so for equipment it would be my 3 hole stainless sink with sprayer. Next would be a tie between the pump and pH meter.

 

[505-Brewer]

Cold side: Temperature control and the ability to oxygenate your wort properly are critical equipment based needs. (Assumes you are already pitching adequate and healthy yeast).

Technique wise: learn how to do a forced diacetyl test or develop a fermentation procedure/timeline to properly account for it. (Best to always sample and test though. Purge headspace w CO2 after sampling).

Yeast handling: as mentioned above.

 

[Beermeister32]

Best investment “bang for the buck” is a Craigslist refrigerator. Use a digital temp control. I can dial in any temperature from freezing to ambient. Great for fermentation control.

 

[Bobby_M]

You'd have to spend a lot more on the hot side to see any significant improvement so I agree a fridge on a controller for your fermenters would be best bang for the buck.

 

[Bassman2003]

I would add that a conical is expensive and not really needed in comparison to other ways to ferment and transfer. I use a Kegmenter, wine fridge and purge the serving keg for my cold side. Easy. Closed transfer away from the yeast in the fermenter when everything is done and cold crashed. If you want to repitch you just get the yeast out after transfer. Plus conicals tend to be too large for many fridge models.

1) - Learn yeast handling
2) - Cold side investments - temp control, closed transfers (oxygen free)
3) - Learn how to make better wort on the hot side. If that needs equipment, then fill the need. Buying just to buy does not always help. It is the knowledge and learning of how to make better wort is what it important.

 

[Bobby_M]

I would add that a conical is expensive and not really needed in comparison to other ways to ferment and transfer. I use a Kegmenter, wine fridge and purge the serving keg for my cold side. Easy. Closed transfer away from the yeast in the fermenter when everything is done and cold crashed. If you want to repitch you just get the yeast out after transfer. Plus conicals tend to be too large for many fridge models.

1) - Learn yeast handling
2) - Cold side investments - temp control, closed transfers (oxygen free)
3) - Learn how to make better wort on the hot side. If that needs equipment, then fill the need. Buying just to buy does not always help. It is the knowledge and learning of how to make better wort is what it important.

Agree. As an equipment vendor I see countless people lead with aesthetics, such as the desire to ferment in a conical before they have any budget for heating, cooling, or CO2 purge equipment.

The best fermenter choice in my opinion, is something that

• fits within your budget,
• fits inside a fridge that fits within your budget,
• has a reliable seal (not an HDPE bucket),
• can handle a couple PSI of CO2 pressure at least so you can do a CO2 assisted bottle or keg fill.

 

[sibelman]

before I spend the dough on a pump and stainless coil and fittings I'd like to know if it will be worth it

Not the best investment. Other things come first.

Cold side investments

This. Fermentation temp control (converted fridge) and closed transfers (somewhat pressure-capable fermenter, even a few PSI suffices) into purged kegs.

 

[Broken Crow]

Hey @sunbeam can you shine down a little more info and maybe pics of what you're working with?

before I spend the dough on a pump

^This would lead me to assume you're using a 3-tier rig, but I can't figure out how that would work witha 2-burner hotplate...
Also I looked at your other posts which mention doing a 9G batch of pilsner that went in a freezer controlled by an Inkbird 308 (good choice ) but I'm wondering how you did that with an 8G kettle.
With gas as your heat source I'm assuming you have good ventilation or are brewing outdoors, so I won't suggest a steam condensor, but I will ask about the kegs you are contemplating using; Are the tops cut entirely off, or is a hole cut in the top? ..This can be a deal-breaker if you're considering a HERMS as getting precisely the right dimensions of SS coil that you can physically insert and install in a keg can be a royal PITA. That said; Keggles are great for 5-12G batches so that might be a low cost cross-grade that'll simplify larger batches.
I'm gonna +1 @Whisky River @sibelman @Bassman2003 and @Bobby_M ..A modified Fermonster, a Fermzilla or kegs, either cornys or sanke's with an appropriate top fitting will fit nicely inside a fridge wheras an expensive conical may not.

 

[DuncB]

Novalager yeast? Or a clean kveik yeast such as Opshaug for your lagers?

 

[jerrylotto]

Conicles do not have to be expensive. My FastFerment PET conical has served me well for about 5 years and short money. I replaced bottom valve seal once in that period of time. It handles a couple of PSI pressure and makes gravity assisted oxygen-free keg filling a breeze.

 

[mashdar]

Conicles do not have to be expensive. My FastFerment PET conical has served me well for about 5 years and short money. I replaced bottom valve seal once in that period of time. It handles a couple of PSI pressure and makes gravity assisted oxygen-free keg filling a breeze.

Is there a PET version? I googled around and was only seeing HDPE

(kegland/fermzilla has a PET version)

 

[jerrylotto]

Is there a PET version? I googled around and was only seeing HDPE

(kegland/fermzilla has a PET version)

My mistake. It is HDPE, not PET.

 

[bike2brew]

The Ss Brewtech bre bucket w/ temp control and chilling coil comes in @ $399.91. To me it's not that terribly pricey considering the quality improvements I've experienced in my brewing paying attention to fermentation temperature. I started out with a BrewDemon, plastic conical that was quite inexpensive. Cleaning and sanitation with the stainless setup has also made the initial expense cost effective after relatively few brews. Just my experience but I realize this lesson over and over in all of my hobbies that going cheap/affordable in the beginning is always more expensive in the long run as you upgrade until you figure out what level of commitment you want.

 

[jerrylotto]

The Ss Brewtech bre bucket w/ temp control and chilling coil comes in @ $399.91. To me it's not that terribly pricey considering the quality improvements I've experienced in my brewing paying attention to fermentation temperature. I started out with a BrewDemon, plastic conical that was quite inexpensive. Cleaning and sanitation with the stainless setup has also made the initial expense cost effective after relatively few brews. Just my experience but I realize this lesson over and over in all of my hobbies that going cheap/affordable in the beginning is always more expensive in the long run as you upgrade until you figure out what level of commitment you want.

I actually own one and I prefer the FastFerment. The stainless Brew Bucket needs a repeater for a tilt to work through it unlike the FastFerment and relies on instrumentation (spunding valve gauge and tilt readings) to monitor fermentation progress cause there's no visual clues to progress, and it's a pain in the neck to harvest yeast for reuse from it. The pluses include easy cleaning, higher pressure fermentation possibilities, and lower height (although I've already modified my fermentation chamber to fit the FastFerment. I replaced the thermo well on the Brew Bucket with a longer one to get to the middle of the wort for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[bike2brew]

I have heard that. My tilt seems to work ok in the stainless so no issues there. Likewise I have not advanced to pressure fermentation or harvesting yeast so my system fits pretty well. I have a couple 3.5 gallon brew buckets also (result of the upgrade evolution) that I use for 2.5 gallon BIAB batches that will fit into space I have in the refrigerator for cold crash, etc. I have only done so once so not a high priority for me. Getting my system to where I wanted was an extended process and is mostly where I want it now. Similarily, I am still adjusting my bicycle seat and fit after riding for 10+ years. Thankfully, I have already bought and paid for all of the many upgrades along that path to get the handle bars, pedals, other bits of "unobtainium" bling to be able to move on to other adventures.

 

[Willy]

Novalager yeast? Or a clean kveik yeast such as Opshaug for your lagers?

Novalager has a cleaner, more neutral taste. I always ferment at least 7 or 8 days, even though the bulk of it is finished day 2-4 in most cases.

 

[cfrazier77]

Control fermentation Temps, even a glass carboy in a fridge, will be huge. Then o2 free transfers. After that it is controlling mash temps. That can be fine with just a cooler like you have now. Or, I cheap 120 volt rims system.

 

[sunbeam]

Hey @sunbeam can you shine down a little more info and maybe pics of what you're working with?

^This would lead me to assume you're using a 3-tier rig, but I can't figure out how that would work witha 2-burner hotplate...
Also I looked at your other posts which mention doing a 9G batch of pilsner that went in a freezer controlled by an Inkbird 308 (good choice ) but I'm wondering how you did that with an 8G kettle.
With gas as your heat source I'm assuming you have good ventilation or are brewing outdoors, so I won't suggest a steam condensor, but I will ask about the kegs you are contemplating using; Are the tops cut entirely off, or is a hole cut in the top? ..This can be a deal-breaker if you're considering a HERMS as getting precisely the right dimensions of SS coil that you can physically insert and install in a keg can be a royal PITA. That said; Keggles are great for 5-12G batches so that might be a low cost cross-grade that'll simplify larger batches.
I'm gonna +1 @Whisky River @sibelman @Bassman2003 and @Bobby_M ..A modified Fermonster, a Fermzilla or kegs, either cornys or sanke's with an appropriate top fitting will fit nicely inside a fridge wheras an expensive conical may not.

Sure can. I borrowed my neighbor's blichmann pot for that big batch (which turned out fantastic btw) usually I brew with a very bare bones setup and I batch sparge using a saucepan to dip the water from the HLT over to the MT. I do have a spare fridge on an inkbird in the basement but i try to time my beers around the natural temperature of the cellar or closet. This worked against me last batch as we had a warm spell just as the yeast was getting going . Then when it came time for the diacetyl rest it cooled off! But this sealed transfer technique is something new to me that I must learn. I plan on converting the kegs to start making 10 gallons batches this summer. Probably I'll look into a pump then as I'll be handling volumes of got liquid I can't just manually move around.

 

[sunbeam]

Novalager has a cleaner, more neutral taste. I always ferment at least 7 or 8 days, even though the bulk of it is finished day 2-4 in most cases.

I've been using S-23 or 34/70 dry yeast

 

[Broken Crow]

Thanks! So, if you go the keggle route, will they both fit on the burner, or might you need to buy another burner?
In any event, going larger you will definitely benefit from pump.

 

[sunbeam]

Thanks! So, if you go the keggle route, will they both fit on the burner, or might you need to buy another burner?
In any event, going larger you will definitely benefit from pump.

I'll have to get a second burner for the boil kettle since the burners are too close together on the hotplate. I may already have something that could work.

 

[Genuine]

The 2 things that improved my beer immensely was going to a RO water system and a fermzilla so I could do pressure ferments and closed transfers. I also purge my kegs with CO2 from fermentation.

 

[Skeeter686]

The 2 things that improved my beer immensely was going to a RO water system and a fermzilla so I could do pressure ferments and closed transfers. I also purge my kegs with CO2 from fermentation.

I'm seriously considering an RO system lately. I've been trying to learn more about adjusting my water, and it just seems like building the water from scratch is a lot easier, especially for a few specific styles.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm seriously considering an RO system lately. I've been trying to learn more about adjusting my water, and it just seems like building the water from scratch is a lot easier, especially for a few specific styles.

Check with @Buckeye_Hydro for an RO system.

 

[Stikius]

I also purge my kegs with CO2 from fermentation.

I've never purged from fermentation. If you need to purge several kegs, do you daisy chain them or change the lines after a few days? Does fermentation produce enough CO2 to be able to purge 2-3 kegs? In that case the optimal solution would be to daisy them together and put the spunding valve on the last keg.

 

[mashdar]

I've never purged from fermentation. If you need to purge several kegs, do you daisy chain them or change the lines after a few days? Does fermentation produce enough CO2 to be able to purge 2-3 kegs? In that case the optimal solution would be to daisy them together and put the spunding valve on the last keg.

I would daisy chain them. No guesswork, and once the CO2 in the first keg drops, its output is effectively purging the next keg.

As for effectiveness, it depends a lot on the volumes involved, final ABV, spunding, etc. Are you purging two 5 gallon kegs with a 10+ gallon fermentation? If so, that will work fine.

IMO 5 gallons of ~5% ABV un-spunded beer can conservatively purge one 5 gallon keg really well, and a second one adequately for most uses*. 3rd keg iffy, and depends a lot on specifics.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...cheap-co2-storage-system.728099/post-10341634

*Tubing permiability may play a huge role in final O2 concentration, even for EVA barrier.

 

[Genuine]

I've never purged from fermentation. If you need to purge several kegs, do you daisy chain them or change the lines after a few days? Does fermentation produce enough CO2 to be able to purge 2-3 kegs? In that case the optimal solution would be to daisy them together and put the spunding valve on the last keg.

YMMV however when I'm doing a 5 gallon batch, it seems to produce enough CO2 to effectively purge it for NEIPA's and I don't have any quality loss while packaging to a keg. With a 10 Gallon batch, I'll daisy chain kegs.

Here's a tread based on purging with CO2 from Fermentation - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/keg-purging-with-active-fermentation.628658/

 

[jerrylotto]

I've never purged from fermentation. If you need to purge several kegs, do you daisy chain them or change the lines after a few days? Does fermentation produce enough CO2 to be able to purge 2-3 kegs? In that case the optimal solution would be to daisy them together and put the spunding valve on the last keg.

I do this all of the time but I put a bubbler on the last keg. Each has been cleaned and contains enough sanitizer in them to provide a gas seal. Fermentation gas (CO2) goes into the liquid out post and out the gas inlet post. The first keg on the line is the oldest (has been through multiple purges) and gets the batch currently fermenting, and the others move up the hierarchy.