15 gal vs. 20 gal

[jready]

Hello all, I have been out of home brewing for about 10 years but I am about to take the plunge back in and have placed an order with Colorado Brewing Systems for their Nano Brewer Home 15 gallon. I have been trading emails with Tim there (very helpful) about what batch size I could do in the 15 gallon and he mentioned that it wasn't ideal for a 10 gallon batch of a bigger beer and that I would need to either boil a concentrated wort and top up in the fermentor or "rinse" the grains to get to 10 gallon. Part of the appeal of the system is not doing those things so we discussed upgrading to 20 gallon to allow for 10 gallon batches.

I am guessing that I would probably mainly do 5 gallon batches but would like the ability to do 10 gallon for "house" beers or bigger beers. (Time is at a premium for me) My thinking was that I would go with 1 7 gallon fermentor and on 14 gallon. I am very interested in the Ss Brewing Tech Cronical BME with the SST cooling heating option as space is also a little tight.

Lot's of back story (sorry) to get to my question. First off, for those of you that have experience with CBS systems or BIAB in general would buying the 20 gallon system make sense if only 4 out of 10 batches were 10 gallon? How "big" of a beer could I do a 10 gallon batch of in the 15 gallon system? Does getting one 7gal and one 14gal fermentor make sense? Any other thoughts are much appreciated!

This is my "once in a lifetime" opportunity to make this kind of a big ticket purchase so I want to make sure I get it right. Tim gave me a price to upgrade to the 20 gallon and it would bend the budget but not break it so, what do you all think? My choices as I see them are:

15 gal CBS with two 7 gal cronicals

15 gal CBS with one 7 and one 14 gal cronical

20 gal CBS with one 7 and one 14 gal cronical

I have lots of craft beer drinking friends so I don't think the beer would go to waste.

Have I set the record for longest first post? I appreciate all feedback and realize that I have a ton to learn. I have already learned so much from reading your posts. My old system was a Sabco brew magic I don't want to go back to three vessel and really am looking forward to going electric, I've already had the wiring set up.

Thanks!

 

[iijakii]

Do you ever find yourself brewing 10gal of a huge RIS?

 

[30Bones]

I'd go 20 gallon personally.

Budget the conicals next year or 2 and get some Speidels in the meantime. You may never see a reason to spend the coin on conicals??? I use Speidel (2 30L and place to get a 60L soon), but sure so love my friends SS brewtech gear.

 

[jeffmeh]

I have made a huge RIS biab in a 15 gal kettle. Yielded 6 gallons maxed out. Probably could have partigyled.

 

[jlongstreet]

I'm in a similar boat and went with the 20 gallon system (well, the kettle and basket anyway, I'm piecing together the rest of the system custom). It doesn't sound like there's any problems doing 5 gallon batches in the 20 gallon system, although I wouldn't be surprised if boiloff is higher. My "5 gallon batches" on my current setup end with 6 gallons in the kettle, 7 preboil. I haven't gotten my Colorado system set up yet, so I can't tell you how it's going to go, but I figure even if I need to do somewhat larger "5 gallon" batches and dump wort, it'll be worth it.

My plan is to make 10 gallon batches for normal-to-low-gravity beers with tried-and-true recipes, and do 5 gallons for the occasional high gravity batch or testing new recipes. I still test new recipes a lot, though, so it'll probably be something like 50/50. I just didn't want to upgrade to a nice new system and not have the ability to do 10 gallons.

 

[1MadScientist]

I have made some 9 1/2 gallon batches using a converted keg, keg capacity is at 14.8 gallons (1.065 SG BIAB, added remaining water before the boil).

MS

 

[jready]

Lot's of great feedback! Sounds like the 20 gal may be the better option but I'd love to hear more! I can compensate for the higher boil off rates if that is the worst I have to deal with when doing 5 gal batches. As far as the fermentation side I agree I could add more fermentors as I go along.

I would love more feedback from those that have done 5 gallon batches in a 20 gal system with good results (high ABV vs. Session beers). If I go 20 gal CBS and 7 Gal + 14 gal cronicals will that keep me busy for a while? I have budgeted to build a 3-4 tap keezer with room for expansion. I really LOVE this hobby and I also LOVE playing out all of the scenarios, this is probably my one chance to build this brewery from scratch so I love everyone's feedback. Please keep the ideas and thoughts coming!

What should I be thinking of next? What are the things I should make sure I have to go along with this system?

 

[cod3ck]

Do you want to have the flexibility to do 10 gallon batches of big beers? Or is 5 gallons sufficient when you get to this level of complexity, abv, etc?

If it were mine I'd say yes on the 10 gallon flexibility since more often than not, the first keg is where I analyze and review the beer I made. By the time the second keg comes along, I can finally enjoy the beer for what it is...

That's a personality thing though. I know plenty of people that look at 10 gallons of barley wine and wonder how they'd get through that (and still enjoy it) over the course of a year... Especially when there's so many beers to be made and so little time!

...if it helps, maybe another thing to consider is how many taps you want available at any given time?

By the way -- the Brewtech fermenters are sweet!

 

[Beernip]

How many times a year do you think you'd brew 10g batches of huge beers? 1-2 times a year? I'd rather have a system that is perfect for what I do 95% of the time. I think the 20g system would be hard to do 5g batches on. When I need to brew that huge beer I can brew two 5g batches of a big beer in a day. Or just dump the first 6 gallons of mash to buckets, and mash in again and transfer both back in the kettle. Add 2 hours to your brew day.

 

[jready]

Do you want to have the flexibility to do 10 gallon batches of big beers? Or is 5 gallons sufficient when you get to this level of complexity, abv, etc?

If it were mine I'd say yes on the 10 gallon flexibility since more often than not, the first keg is where I analyze and review the beer I made. By the time the second keg comes along, I can finally enjoy the beer for what it is...

That's a personality thing though. I know plenty of people that look at 10 gallons of barley wine and wonder how they'd get through that (and still enjoy it) over the course of a year... Especially when there's so many beers to be made and so little time!

...if it helps, maybe another thing to consider is how many taps you want available at any given time?



By the way -- the Brewtech fermenters are sweet!

I plan to go with 3 taps to begin with but will probably add a 4th pretty quickly. Good question on really big beers, I like the idea of having a second keg but not sure I will have the storage capacity. I'm guessing 6-8 kegs would be the max I could keep cold and ready to go. Part of the reason that I am getting back into brewing is that the beer available in Nashville is somewhat limited and I love variety! So, on that thought I wonder if I am smarter to stick with the 15 gal. I will check out the brewtech fermentors. Thanks!

 

[jready]

How many times a year do you think you'd brew 10g batches of huge beers? 1-2 times a year? I'd rather have a system that is perfect for what I do 95% of the time. I think the 20g system would be hard to do 5g batches on. When I need to brew that huge beer I can brew two 5g batches of a big beer in a day. Or just dump the first 6 gallons of mash to buckets, and mash in again and transfer both back in the kettle. Add 2 hours to your brew day.

What about the bigger system would make it hard to do bigger batches? I'm asking because I really don't know. With this thinking would you stick to two 7 gal fermentors and maybe add a bigger one later?

I am really curious to know how "big" of a beer I could do a 10 gal batch on the 15 gal system. Could I do a 10 gal 6% ABV IPA on the 15 without having to modify my brew day? I'm thinking that would be the more common scenario of a beer I would want 10 gal of. Anybody have thoughts on that?

 

[jready]

Do you ever find yourself brewing 10gal of a huge RIS?

Guessing no, I'm just not sure how "big" of a grain bill the 15 gal system could hold for a 10 gal batch. Looking at some of the recipes I plan to brew could it hold 26 lbs of grain and still do a 10 gal batch?

 

[jready]

Do you want to have the flexibility to do 10 gallon batches of big beers? Or is 5 gallons sufficient when you get to this level of complexity, abv, etc?

If it were mine I'd say yes on the 10 gallon flexibility since more often than not, the first keg is where I analyze and review the beer I made. By the time the second keg comes along, I can finally enjoy the beer for what it is...

That's a personality thing though. I know plenty of people that look at 10 gallons of barley wine and wonder how they'd get through that (and still enjoy it) over the course of a year... Especially when there's so many beers to be made and so little time!

...if it helps, maybe another thing to consider is how many taps you want available at any given time?

By the way -- the Brewtech fermenters are sweet!

Poor dumb me I just realized we are talking about the same fermenters!

 

[jeffmeh]

Guessing no, I'm just not sure how "big" of a grain bill the 15 gal system could hold for a 10 gal batch. Looking at some of the recipes I plan to brew could it hold 26 lbs of grain and still do a 10 gal batch?

With 26 lbs of grain my 15 gal kettle could hold 12 gallons of water. This was the big RIS (original gravity 1.1+) and yielded a bit over 6 gallons. If I were to sparge, I certainly could have yielded more output at a lesser gravity.

 

[-CHRIS-]

20 gal CBS with one 7 and one 14 gal cronical

This is what I would do.

I think 15 gallon vessels are a waste, too large for 5 gallon batches and just really not enough for 10 gallon batches. That being said, my first and only brewery is a eHERMS keggle based system. I make 10 gallon batches of medium and light beers, but I need to use Fermcap to keep the boil under control. One of my most popular beers is a Vanilla Bourbon stout but I can only brew 5 gallons of that and I am running out of it all the time which is annoying.

I will admit, I don't know how kettle volume differs with BIAB.

I liked the concept of brewing 5 and 10 gallon batches, but honestly have settled on 10 gallon batches all the time. Except for IPAs and other hop forward styles, all beers taste better after aging for 4-8 weeks. I have 12 corny kegs that are kept in rotation.

Regarding the fermenter, just buy two 14 gallon fermenters. I ferment 5 gallons of big beers all the time in my Bru Gear 14 gallon fermenter with no problem.

Chris

 

[1MadScientist]

I have made 10 gallon batches at 6.4% abv with no sparging in my keggle.

MS

 

[Jwin]

I have managed to consistently make 9g batches in my 15g kettle. Not intentionally. If you want to be able to do 10g (11g) batches without having to Uber babysit the boil, go 20.
I also second the speidels. Morebeer has the new squared ones as well. I think you can fit two 60l in a upright freezer ferm chamber side by side pretty easily. Get extra solid caps for them and buy ssbrewtech's ss racking arm kit and add them on.

My .02
Also, hello to a fellow Nashvillian.

 

[jready]

I have managed to consistently make 9g batches in my 15g kettle. Not intentionally. If you want to be able to do 10g (11g) batches without having to Uber babysit the boil, go 20.
I also second the speidels. Morebeer has the new squared ones as well. I think you can fit two 60l in a upright freezer ferm chamber side by side pretty easily. Get extra solid caps for them and buy ssbrewtech's ss racking arm kit and add them on.

My .02
Also, hello to a fellow Nashvillian.

Hello and thanks for the input! I am over in East Nashville and love it! If you keg, where do you get your CO2 filled? I looked at the Speidels but love the BMEs from ssbrewtech. The cooling system is pretty slick and I think I can keep the cold water in my Keezer for space considerations.

If you haven't had a chance there are two great new breweries in East Nashville Smith and Lentz and Southern Grist.

 

[Jwin]

VWS sales beer gas too iirc.
If you are up for a ride, go up 65 to Franklin kentucky. Ballast pointe, three floyds, unita and others all avaliable at the stores there.

 

[Jwin]

Didn't post my first reply
Volunteer welding supply near 8th iirc fills co2 m-f and swaps on Saturdays
All seasons has a nice showroom but rebel brewer has a better selection in town. Rebel swaps co2 as well. Not sure about all seasons.
All seasons does have corsair's malt now though.

 

[brewprint]

Here's my take:

I was looking at getting at least the pot from CObrewing. Instead I decided to put mine together from different places like ebrewsupply, Spike and others.

I'm going to have a 20 gallon pot. The basket that I'm going to have made is 15x15 with 3 inch legs. The pot is 17.7 diameter and 21.4 tall. That gives me plenty of room for a sparge arm on the side near the top. Also the 15x15 basket will be plenty for a 30 pound grain bill without the water going above the basket.

I would just go with the larger size. It can't hurt you one bit.

 

[WScottCross]

Additional food for thought: I built my 3V eHERMS system with 3 30 gallon kettles and I can still do 5 gallon batches. As long as the element is mounted low enough, it still works. It only takes 4 gallons to cover my element and I usually end up with over 6 gallons when I'm done with the boil. I usually do either 10 or 15 gallon batches since I have LOTS of help making it disappear. I did a whole bunch of upgrades before I decided to go really big on this last round.

 

[jready]

Thank you all for your input, I also heard back from Tim at Colorado Brewing Systems (such awesome support) and decided to pull the trigger on the upgrade.
So, the system will have the following:

20 gal CBS system a 7 gal fermenter and a 14 gal fermenter now it's just a matter or waiting for production and delivery! I will keep you all posted and send a pic (If I can figure out how to upload it) when it all arrives!

 

[jready]

VWS sales beer gas too iirc.
If you are up for a ride, go up 65 to Franklin kentucky. Ballast pointe, three floyds, unita and others all avaliable at the stores there.

Great suggestion thanks! I have offices in Louisville and Lexington so I am up that way once a month at least. I have enjoyed the KY beer scene some great locals plus the ones you listed above but haven't thought about bringing it back!

Love ballast pointe and 3 Floyds!

 

[madscientist451]

I'm going to have a 20 gallon pot. The basket that I'm going to have made is 15x15 with 3 inch legs. The pot is 17.7 diameter and 21.4 tall. That gives me plenty of room for a sparge arm on the side near the top. Also the 15x15 basket will be plenty for a 30 pound grain bill without the water going above the basket.

What material you using for your basket? Mesh in the bottom? Holes?
I'm working on putting a 1 bbl E-BIAB rig together using some of CBS ideas but going to build a 10 gallon system first. Thanks.

 

[Jwin]

Great suggestion thanks! I have offices in Louisville and Lexington so I am up that way once a month at least. I have enjoyed the KY beer scene some great locals plus the ones you listed above but haven't thought about bringing it back!

Love ballast pointe and 3 Floyds!

Love the bar scene on Louisville. Even the small bars have 16 taps. A couple years ago I spent about 3 weeks between NYC and Louisville for what now feels like beer scholaring. Have a time with that system! #brewenvy

 

[brewprint]

What material you using for your basket? Mesh in the bottom? Holes?
I'm working on putting a 1 bbl E-BIAB rig together using some of CBS ideas but going to build a 10 gallon system first. Thanks.

I'm having one built from Arbor Fab. It's 400 micron and I'm pretty sure it's all stainless. There is mesh on the bottom.