Your experiences with flocculation?

[sniemeyer]

In every batch I brew, using very different yeasts in very different batches, I consistently seem to have poor flocculation. By "poor," I mean that the beer will typically secondary for a couple of weeks at 64 F (for an ale) or 45 F (for a lager) and will then sit at near freezing (28 - 30 depending on the abv of the beer) for a couple weeks without significantly clearing. Only by adding finings am I able to get the yeast to sediment to the point that the beer is acceptably clear. Once isinglass is added, my beer will typically be crystal clear (even at cold temps, so chill haze is not the issue) within a week. But without finings, it seems that I can wait forever.

All of my reading suggests that this is abnormal.

What are your experiences with sedimentation/flocculation? How long does it usually take for your beer to clear? Any idea what I could be doing that results in this abnormal pattern of flocculation?

I am adding the appropriate amounts of calcium to my water, so that is not the problem. My pitching rate is normally on the high side, and I THINK the yeast should be very well aerated (I continuously aerate a stirred starter with filtered air and a 0.2 micron stone for 8 - 9 hours before pitching). My primary fermentation times are normal (5 days or less for ales of normal gravity, 7 - 9 days for lagers of normal gravity), with the start of fermentation typically within 8 hours.

 

[Justibone]

If cold-crashing doesn't work, then I have no idea. Weird!

Have you tried using water you purchase, instead of water out of your tap?

 

[samc]

Are you using Whirlfloc or Irish moss? I use Whirlfloc with a two week (on average) primary and then cold crash that for 5-7 days. Beer is usually clear or very close to it at that point. My dry hopping in the keg tends to cloud it up for a little but that settles down after a few days. I doubt your issues are yeast related based on what you posted. You did not mention how long it's in the primary, you might consider skipping the secondary as well.

 

[mithion]

I could think of two things which might be hurting you. You're not getting good hot and cold break and the proteins remain is suspension. This is especially true when you're cooling off your beer, you might be precipitating proteins which would appear as a fuzzy haze. Second possibility, you're not getting good starch conversion. What you're seing might be starch haze. I agree with previous respondents, I don't think yeast is the issue given the length and temperatures you provided.

 

[sniemeyer]

Ok, so my assumption that this yeast behavior is NOT typical apparently is confirmed.

To answer the questions posted so far:

1. I have brewed using distilled water to which pH stabilizer was added, but not calcium. At first I thought THIS was my problem, because I found out that yeast REQUIRE calcium in order to flocculate. So now I am using filtered, de-chlorinated, de-bicarbonated (i.e. treated with slaked lime) water from my tap to which the appropriate amounts of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate are added to bring my calcium levels to about 100 ppm, which should be perfect for both protein precipitation in the mash and boil, as well as yeast flocculation.

2. I am using 2 tablets of whirlfloc in the boil (added 15 minutes before end of boil). My boil is very vigorous, with about 15% evaporation per hour. After the boil, I do a two stage whilrpool. The wort entering the fermenter is crystal clear. I use two tablets because my batches are typically on the order of 7 to 8 gallons rather than 5.

3. My mash setup is faily sophisticated and produces very clear wort, which just gets clearer after the boil. I recirculate for an hour, through a thick filter bed, after mash-out at a temp around 162 - 168 F, so I get very good protein/polyphenol precipitation.

Also, after the isinglass causes the yeast to finally flocculate, the beer is clear at near freezing temps, indicating that chill haze (i.e. protein/polyphenol complexes) is not the issue. When the beer is cloudy, I can distinctly taste the yeastiness.

So, ruling out these potential causes, my best guess is that I am probably overpitching, and that the excess yeast in the beer is what is causing the long clarification times. But this explanation doesn't make sense to me either. Even if there is a lot of extra yeast, it should all still flocculate at the same rate, right? It shouldn't necessarily take LONGER to flocculate.

 

[mithion]

So, ruling out these potential causes, my best guess is that I am probably overpitching, and that the excess yeast in the beer is what is causing the long clarification times. But this explanation doesn't make sense to me either. Even if there is a lot of extra yeast, it should all still flocculate at the same rate, right? It shouldn't necessarily take LONGER to flocculate.

My guess would be that if you would pitch an inordinate amount of yeast, the excess yeast would simply drop to the bottom and not contribute to haziness. Also, I don't use anything besides irish moss to help precipitate proteins and my beers are crystal clear. Maybe you should try a batch without all the fancy chemical stuff and see what your beer looks like.

 

[ajf]

As I suspect you know, isinglass is used to bring the yeast out of suspension. Have you ever tried using WLP002 or WY1968? If you can't get clear beer with either of those (both highly flocculating strains), then I think you are brewing with rules that do not apply in this universe.

You don't come from the planet Mongo do you?

One other thing. After your filtration and water treatment, have you ever tested your water to ensure there is adequate calcium?

-a.

 

[samc]

Whirlfloc - it's amazing how many different times and quantities are thrown about with this product. From what I have observed and read, it does not work all that well if you boil it too long. I've found 5-7 minutes for me with 2 tablets in 11 gallons works best. The 15 minute boils don't work well and the break is less or non existent. There are some posts on the Internet that talk of the product denaturing in longer usage than 5-10 minutes.

Still don't think it's the yeast, not sure about your water additions. Why not try a known good water profile http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/wchmprimer.html

 

[JohnMc]

I'd second ajf's advice to try a known very flocculant strain. If 1968 doesn't floc, then whoa nelly.

Also, have you consulted another, local home brewer that uses the same water source you use? (I'm assuming municipal water, if you're on a well, then it's a guess).

You don't come from the planet Mongo do you?

Thanks, that was funny!