Yet another PH question

[Paleface]

Hi all, I brewed an IPA last weekend. My water PH is 7.9 and alkalinity is 172. Disolved solids are high too. My lighter colored beers always have a very astringent bitterness to the point of being un-drinkable. I'm no sparge brewing in a bag so the water to grain ratio is always high.

Downloaded bru'n water filled in my grain bill (2 row base malt with Munich, carapils and 2% acid malt. Calculator says I needed 1 ml of lactic 88% per gallon to bring PH to 5.3 range. Strike water 8.5 gal. Calibrated the MW102, added 8.5 ml of lactic to the water just prior to mash in. Mashed in, Mixed it well, turned on the pump and let it circulate for about 10 min.

Drew off a sample and took my first PH reading at room temp and it was 5.92. Not too happy with that so I immediatly added another 4 ml of lactic. Checked it at 30 min and it was 5.12
45 min 5.04
60 min 5.04
mash out 5.05

Question is if I left things alone, would this mash have settled into the desired target range of 5.3 - 5.4? Or would it have stayed at 5.92 throughout? How long should it take before you get an accurate ph reading? Is it common for the mash PH to drift slowly down throughout? Did I panic and overcorrect? (Well yeah I did), but I've dumped too many bitter beers and I didn't want this to be another one. Any thoughts or advice? Thanks!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Mash pH normally goes up slightly during the mash, not down. I take pH readings after 15mins of recirculation, but later readings don't vary by more than a few tenths of a pH unit. I don't have much experience with acid malt (phosphoric is my acid of choice) - maybe it takes more than 10mins to do its thing?

Also, make sure you read the pH meter calibration sticky to rule out bad readings/user error.

I'm not sure why you're using acid malt AND lactic acid - that just complicates things (they each do the same thing anyway). I'd suggest, with alkalinity that high, that you cut your water with RO rather than adding such large doses of acid (or brew dark beers).

 

[Paleface]

Thanks for the response. Yeah the acid malt and Lactic do the same thing, but the lactic can have taste implications if used in high doses. Im reasoning that the acid malt will allow me to use less Lactic to get to where I need to be. My dark ales are good but I want to be able to brew the full spectrum. I'll read the cal. sticky again and thanks for your comments.

 

[jekeane]

I would wonder about how well you were initially mixed in. I just started using a ph meter myself and also use brun and do full volume biab. Brun has been within .1 4 times and .2 once. I have yet to see it super out of whack.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Brun has been within .1 4 times and .2 once. I have yet to see it super out of whack.

Bru'n water can only be as accurate as the data that is put into it. Actual water used can vary from 'averages' that are given on water reports. If you get a seasonal fluctuation in one or more important ions, your pH could vary significantly from the spreadsheet's estimate.

 

[ajdelange]

No, it can't. It is as accurate as the extent to which it models the malts you are using which isn't very accurately as color is not a strong correlate of DI mash pH nor of the buffering capacity coefficients. Now if you put data into it in error those errors will add to the errors from the model and this is when you get the 0.3 - 0.5 discrepancies. Ordinarily (when fed good data) my reading of people's experiences here suggests 0.1 to 0.2.

The alkalinity of 3.4 mEq/L implies a requirement of about 100 mEq of acid to get the water to pH 5.3 which can indeed be met by 1 mL of lactic acid in each of the 8.5 gal. This is enough to 0 the water alkalinity. That means that it would be impossible to have a mash pH reading higher than the DI mash pH of the base malt. Thus 7.9 is not a reasonable pH reading under these circumstances. Yes, had you waited long enough, had you been sure of the pH meter's calibration, and had you completely and thoroughly mixed the mash components you probably would have seen a pH more like what the spreadsheet predicted.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Thanks for the response. Yeah the acid malt and Lactic do the same thing, but the lactic can have taste implications if used in high doses.

Acid malt is also a source of lactic acid, in a form that meets the requirements of the reinheitsgebot. Phosphoric acid is generally claimed to be more taste neutral.

 

[ajdelange]

An important difference between lactic acid and sauermalz is that sauermalz is malt. In addition to its acid properties, it acts like any other malt contributing it's subtle flavors to the beer. Some of us use it in preference to the straight acid in order to get those flavors.

 

[Paleface]

Thanks so much to all of you for the information and lesson behind all this. This is really my first attempt with water adjustment and using a PH meter so I'm chalking this up to in-experience.

I'm pretty sure about the calibration and use of the meter. I believe it had more to do with mixing, and impatience. I typically set my flow rate low in the begining and that may have been a contributor.

Next time I will give it another stir at 10 min., increase the flow rate and take the first reading at 15 or 20. Thanks again for your thoughts and advise! Im pretty sure It would have been fine if I had left it alone.

 

[Paleface]

I'll throw out one last question on this thread.
Just did a taste of last Saturdays brew and it is definatly a sour.
Not seeing myself or anyone drinking this. The mash ph at mashout was 5.05 and the beer after frmentation was 4.17.
Is there any way to fix this or is it a done deal?

 

[ajdelange]

It's pretty much a done deal but you have absolutely nothing to lose by trying to neutralize some of that acidity with bicarbonate and seeing how the result tastes. Or develop a taste for sour beer. I find it delightful.

 

[Paleface]

Thanks AJ. I'll probably try the bicarbonate and see it through to the end.
My son likes sour beers so it probably won't go to waste.
Good lessons learned here and thanks again for your help.