Yet, another efficiency issue thread.

[Bob-MTL]

Trying to figure out my low efficiency (~60% for 5 batch in a row).


A few numbers:

- 2,9 gallons batch (11 litres)
- 5,95 pounds of grain (much of them being 2 row)

- Maxium O.G. of 1.072 ( 37.5 ppg ) ** According to John Palmer **
- Actual O.G. of 1.050 ( 24 ppg )

- Strike water : 2,28 gal. (8,5L) @ 165 F -> 155 F once mixed.
- Fly Sparge water: 3,22 gal. (12L) @ 160 F (did not use all of it)

- Mash time: 60 min.
- Sparge time: at least 60 min.

Equipment: 5 gallons rubbermaid cooler, with DIY false bottom.

---

The milling of the grain is ok, according to my readings (husks are broken, but not too much to make flour)

I use tap water, and don't put anything to change the ph.


That said, I did a reading once my vorlof was done and got a gravity of 1.052. Could this be an issue? I read somewhere that this reading should be at, or close to, 1.070.


* Edit: Added the grain picture (once done) *

Update #1:

After a few comments, it seems like my issue comes from a bad mash convertion. My reading after Vorlauf should be at least at 1.080, which is hardly the case.

Reading after Vorlauf: 1.050.
Reading at the end of the fly sparge: 1.004
Reading pre-boil : 1.045.
Reading post-boil: 1.050.

Now, if I take a look at the common efficiency issue:

(found here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency )

Crush: The husk are crushed and some flour can be found at the bottom.

Temperature: Mash temp is 155, which end at around 153.

pH: I have no pH reader, and have no clue about it. I will buy a pH reader soon to get some readings. I add nothing to the mash for that.

Diastatic Power: More than 80% of my brews uses 2rows, which have enough Diastatic power.

Time: 60 minutes, at least.

Water/Girst Ratio: 2,61L / kg, which is what I read was the average.

Dough Balls: Maybe, but 5 times in a row? Each time I would have had differents O.G., right?


What I will do next time:
- Make sure the grain mill is set at the size of one credit card.
- Boil the water the day before to get rid of the chlorine and bad stuff.
- Do a mash out.
- Do more hydrometer readings and be more accurate (temp wise).

 

[GotPushrods]

If the husks are just broken open, and there is NO flour.... 60% is probably about right.

 

[ajf]

The only thing that I can see wrong with your figures is the calculation of your efficiency at ~60%.
I calculate it to be ~70%
5.5 # grain at 37.5 ppg gives you 206 points.
Dividing 206 points by 2.9 gallons gives you 71 points per gallon (or a gravity of 1.071 at 100% efficiency)
You got an OG of 1.050 (or 50 points per gallon)
50/71 =~ 0.70 or 70% efficiency.

-a.

 

[acidrain]

Try milling finer... if your LHBS will let you, run them through twice.
Basically, go as fine as you can get and still have flow.

 

[Denny]

You can also try batch sparging. If your efficiency goes up, then you know your lautering system is poorly designed for fly sparging. But crush is the first thing to look at.

 

[Peleus74]

I have fought the same problem for the last couple years. This morning I finally had some success. I tried all the "first" things, such as crush, mash temp, mash time, pH strips, everything I could try. The advice is to save water adjustment to the last thing. Unfortunately I live in the Rockies and our well sourced city water is hard with a high bicarbonate, about 250.

So after studying the Water book, I decided to go very old school and pre-boil my strike/sparge water the night before with a gypsum addition. This technique dates way back in brewing.

Result - - my crappy normal 63% efficiency hit 85% today....I have an extra gallon of wort when I added dilution water to get back to my intended gravity.

So, if you try all those "first" things and still cannot make it work, think about your water's contribution.

 

[Bob-MTL]

The only thing that I can see wrong with your figures is the calculation of your efficiency at ~60%.
I calculate it to be ~70%
5.5 # grain at 37.5 ppg gives you 206 points.
Dividing 206 points by 2.9 gallons gives you 71 points per gallon (or a gravity of 1.071 at 100% efficiency)
You got an OG of 1.050 (or 50 points per gallon)
50/71 =~ 0.70 or 70% efficiency.

-a.

My bad, I wrote 5,5 pounds, while in fact it is 5,95 lbs. (blame it on the kg/lbs convertion)

ppg = 2,9 gal. * 50 / 5.95 lbs = 24 ppg



As for the grain, the owner of the mill did have a long speach (about half an hour long) about it being set up at the right setup. Soooo, I won't argue (anymore) about it. 8)

As for the water, I think that would be my new guess. I'll do as Peleus74 mentionned and boil it the day before. Might look into some pills to lower the ph also, or get a ph reader from ebay.

 

[Denny]

Don't ask him to readjust the mill. ask him to run the grains through twice. If he won't do that, look for another store. It's your beer. Don't let him tell you how to make it!

If by "pills to lower the pH" you mean the Buffer 5.2 stuff, don't do it.

 

[ajf]

My bad, I wrote 5,5 pounds, while in fact it is 5,95 lbs. (blame it on the kg/lbs convertion)

ppg = 2,9 gal. * 50 / 5.95 lbs = 24 ppg



As for the grain, the owner of the mill did have a long speach (about half an hour long) about it being set up at the right setup. Soooo, I won't argue (anymore) about it. 8)

As for the water, I think that would be my new guess. I'll do as Peleus74 mentionned and boil it the day before. Might look into some pills to lower the ph also, or get a ph reader from ebay.

Even if the grain bill was 5.95 lbs, that still comes out at 64% efficiency, assuming that your grains produce 37.5 ppg. Each time I have requested a malt analysis, I have never got an extract potential greater than 36 ppg, which would increase your efficiency to 67%.

I also fly sparge, but when I started doing a mash out prior to sparging, I increased my efficiency by 10%. At the time, I thought that this was caused by increasing the sparge temperature from the low 150's to the high 160's. I now think that the increase in efficiency was mainly caused by stirring in the mash out water prior to starting the sparge. I tried a few batch sparges, which gave me an efficiency about 1/2 way between fly sparging with no mash out, and with a mash out.

-a.

 

[CA_Mouse]

I agree about double milling the grain. If he won't do it or allow you to run it through a second time, I'd find another store if possible. Or bite the bullet and buy a mill. They really aren't that expensive. I bought a Barley Crusher last year for $130 shipped. The money I've saved buying in bulk on grains, the ability to double mill (I just like my efficiency this way) and the increase from about 65% to as much as 88% lowers the amount of grain I use as well. FTR, I batch sparge in a 52 quart cooler I converted.

 

[Bob-MTL]

I also fly sparge, but when I started doing a mash out prior to sparging, I increased my efficiency by 10%.

-a.

I didn't do mash out because I read it is only used to "stop" the mash process. But since it's something I haven't tried yet, I'll take it a shot for my next brew.

On a side note, my reading at the end of the sparging is at or lower than 1.010. My understanding is that I grab all the sugar "available".

So if I grab all the sugar available, my low efficiency would be because not all the sugar is converted?

 

[Denny]

I didn't do mash out because I read it is only used to "stop" the mash process. But since it's something I haven't tried yet, I'll take it a shot for my next brew.

On a side note, my reading at the end of the sparging is at or lower than 1.010. My understanding is that I grab all the sugar "available".

So if I grab all the sugar available, my low efficiency would be because not all the sugar is converted?

That's possible. Check this out...http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph..._Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency

 

[ajf]

I didn't do mash out because I read it is only used to "stop" the mash process. But since it's something I haven't tried yet, I'll take it a shot for my next brew.

On a side note, my reading at the end of the sparging is at or lower than 1.010. My understanding is that I grab all the sugar "available".

So if I grab all the sugar available, my low efficiency would be because not all the sugar is converted?

If the gravity of your runnings at the end of the sparge is at or below 1.010, this could either be because you have "grabbed" most of the sugar, or because you have channeling. It is easy to check for channeling. After the sparge is complete, add enough extra water to make the runnings thin enough to stir, then stir well, and test the gravity of the runnings after stirring. If you have channeling, then the gravity of the runnings will increase. If you don't have channeling, the new runnings will be lower.
If you do have channeling, I would suggest trying a batch sparge (where channeling is a non-issue), or slowing down your fly sparge rate.

You probable don't need a mash out with your mash thickness. I mash at 1 qt per lb grain Which is much thicker than yours, and found I needed extra water to make the mash thin enough to stir. If you just give the mash a good stir prior to sparging, you should be good.

-a.

 

[MattGuk]

Trying to figure out my low efficiency (~60% for 5 batch in a row).


A few numbers:

- 2,9 gallons batch (11 litres)
- 5,95 pounds of grain (much of them being 2 row)

- Maxium O.G. of 1.072 ( 37.5 ppg ) ** According to John Palmer **
- Actual O.G. of 1.050 ( 24 ppg )

- Strike water : 2,28 gal. (8,5L) @ 165 F -> 155 F once mixed.
- Fly Sparge water: 3,22 gal. (12L) @ 160 F (did not use all of it)

- Mash time: 60 min.
- Sparge time: at least 60 min.

Equipment: 5 gallons rubbermaid cooler, with DIY false bottom.

---

The milling of the grain is ok, according to my readings (husks are broken, but not too much to make flour)

I use tap water, and don't put anything to change the ph.


That said, I did a reading once my vorlof was done and got a gravity of 1.052. Could this be an issue? I read somewhere that this reading should be at, or close to, 1.070.


* Edit: Added the grain picture (once done) *

Reading through, you say that the MAX potential OG is 1.072, but you also say that you checked the OG after the vorlauf and i assume after the sparge at 1.050, are you sure you are not getting pre boil and post boil reading mixed up?
If you are measuring the gravity before the boil at 1.050 then ppst boil is going to be considerably higher?

 

[Bob-MTL]

Reading through, you say that the MAX potential OG is 1.072, but you also say that you checked the OG after the vorlauf and i assume after the sparge at 1.050, are you sure you are not getting pre boil and post boil reading mixed up?
If you are measuring the gravity before the boil at 1.050 then ppst boil is going to be considerably higher?

Reading after Vorlauf: 1.050.
Reading at the end of the fly sparge: 1.004
Reading pre-boil : 1.045.
Reading post-boil: 1.050.

Theses numbers are not 100% accurate, because of the temperature, but gives a good idea.

 

[CA_Mouse]

For a SG of 1.072, I would be shooting for 1.055 - 1.065 Pre-Boil Gravity (depending on the amount of boil off you have. I always shoot for .010 below what I want my Post-Boil Gravity to be (ie: need 1.070 Post-Boil, Pre-boil should be 1.060). I figure it is easier to add pre-boiled water to bring my gravity down, than it is to boil longer and not have a high enough gravity. I, also, tend to see my first runnings (I batch sparge and double mill my grain) about 0.10 -0.15 higher than my SG will be (ie: first runnings for the above example would be 1.080 - 1.085).

 

[user 141939]

So, if you try all those "first" things and still cannot make it work, think about your water's contribution.

I don't see any reason to put this off. It doesn't cost anymore than a water test and some cheap salts and then you don't have to worry about it. For me it was just the salts as I have the city water with a report.

 

[alphagolf]

I second the water comments. My first AG batch was ~60% efficiency then I started adding 5.2 stabilizer and my efficiency instantly went to 78-80%.

I also think Denny's channeling comment also makes sense. Poor mash tun design could also deliver consistent results.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Denny]

I found 5.2 to really have a negative impact on my beer flavor. You might want to try to adjust your water the right way!

 

[Bob-MTL]

I second the water comments. My first AG batch was ~60% efficiency then I started adding 5.2 stabilizer and my efficiency instantly went to 78-80%.

I also think Denny's channeling comment also makes sense. Poor mash tun design could also deliver consistent results.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I use a spaghetti thingy on top and a false bottom at the bottom, I don't think I have channelling issue.


For my next brew, I will take a look at the water. I know to have lots of chlorine in the water, so boiling should help. I looked at the water report, but it doesn't say much, sadly.

 

[Denny]

I use a spaghetti thingy on top and a false bottom at the bottom, I don't think I have channelling issue.


For my next brew, I will take a look at the water. I know to have lots of chlorine in the water, so boiling should help. I looked at the water report, but it doesn't say much, sadly.

That's no guarantee of not channeling. Try batch sparging...if your effieincy goes up, you know it's your lautering system.

 

[Bob-MTL]

Remember what John Palmer says about the water?

"If it smells good, and taste good, your water is probably good enough for EXTRACT BREWING."

Well, when I read the guide, I was doing extract, so I skipped that section and forgot about it. Forgot about the "extract brewing" part when I started doing all-grain.

Now I bought a pH meter, got my city water report, did some homework, and will run my tests for the next brew.

This should help a bit.