Yeast starter, so simple, yet I'm still confused!

[Bluelinebrewer]

I've never made a starter, but I'm going to go ahead and start making them, because it appears that all the kool kids are doing it.. but, for some reason, I can't seem to wrap my tiny little brain around it! I just want to make sure I'm doing this right.. so any help is appreciated.

I'm planning on brewing Monday night. Its going to be an Oatmeal stout, 5.25 gallon batch, expected OG ~1.046. My yeast is an Irish ale yeast, manuf date 5/28/13. Based on what I can see, I need about 170 billion cells, and my Wyeast packet has about 58% viability. If I make a 2L starter, on Sunday night, is that going to be a big enough starter, and enough time to propogate the yeast?? Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[CBMbrewer]

Mrmalty.com is a wonderful site!
I would go with the 2.65 liter starter it recommends and start it around 24 hours before you brew. I generally give my starters enough time to ferment and slow down, then a night in the fridge to settle all of the yeast into a cake. Then decant and pitch on brew day.

 

[stpug]

On a stir plate it seems like 0.8-1L starter would be sufficient. On a stir plate, 24 hours should be sufficient but it won't give you time to crash the starter.

In an intermittently shaken bottle then it seems like 1.5L is closer to the correct size, and you'll definitely want to give it 24-48 hours (closer to the latter) plus extra time if you want to crash it.

 

[Pratzie]

R u using a stir plate or are u gonna shake it from time to time?

If ur using a stir plate u won't need nearly as big a starter, just over one liter. If ur gonna shake it from time to time, say once or twice an hour when ur awake u can get away with a 1.5 or so.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

I did check out Mr. Malty, but for some reason I thought it recommended a 1.76L starter.. at any rate, my flask is a 2L flask. So, am I ok to go ahead and use a 1G glass jar to make my starter in? I would assume I need (according to the numbers you got) 2.76L of starter wort, pour into glass jar and pitch?

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Nope, no stir plate. I tried to build one, but couldn't get it working, got frustrated and said the hell with it! I was thinking about just making the 2L starter and going with it. Its better than no starter at all, like I've been doing!

 

[Pratzie]

U should be fine going with a 1.5 L in ur flask. I've made a few and they are a bit slow then a stirplate so i'd give it a little more time but u should be fine. Just give it a swirl every so often. One of the guys on here posted a little while back, he likes to keep his on his coffee table. Everytime he gets up from watching tv or walks thru the room he gives it a swirl. Just be careful that it doesn't foam up real quick when u do.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Ok, thanks everyone! I may give the ole stir plate build another shot before brew day, and If I get it working, ill use it. If not, swirling it is! I think ill go with the 1.5L. So, that'd be 1.5L water, and 150g DME, correct?

Edited: Amount of DME

 

[Pratzie]

Ok, thanks everyone! I may give the ole stir plate build another shot before brew day, and If I get it working, ill use it. If not, swirling it is! I think ill go with the 1.5L. So, that'd be 1.5L water, and 150g DME, correct?

Edited: Amount of DME

That's correct

 

[DanH]

Nope, no stir plate. I tried to build one, but couldn't get it working...

Stir plates are awesome and easy to build. The two keys are magnet spacing and power source. If you can't get it, post and we'll help.

Not that you 'need' one, cuz you don't, but they're awesome so don't give up.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Stir plates are awesome and easy to build. The two keys are magnet spacing and power source. If you can't get it, post and we'll help.

Not that you 'need' one, cuz you don't, but they're awesome so don't give up.

I actually stopped by Radio Shack on the way home from work tonight. I'm gonna give it another go!! Ill holler if I can't figure it out! Lol

 

[DanH]

Sweet let us know!

 

[atreid]

Problem with starters without decantation is that people use stir plate so it turns into a propagation with all the off-flavors that go with it when you pitch the whole thing. If you're going to pitch all of it, it makes more sense to make a small batch of beer, meaning a true anaerobic fermentation, and then pitch everything right before active fermentation is over. Reproduction is less effective but at least you get healthy yeast ready to continue on their fermentation beat and the actual juice doesn't taste like crap.

Of course, the best option is always a nice oxygenated propagation with time to decant.

 

[Pratzie]

Problem with starters without decantation is that people use stir plate so it turns into a propagation with all the off-flavors that go with it when you pitch the whole thing. If you're going to pitch all of it, it makes more sense to make a small batch of beer, meaning a true anaerobic fermentation, and then pitch everything right before active fermentation is over. Reproduction is less effective but at least you get healthy yeast ready to continue on their fermentation beat and the actual juice doesn't taste like crap.

Of course, the best option is always a nice oxygenated propagation with time to decant.

Off flavors aren't an issue since the yeast will clean up after themselves anyway. Most people like to decant so it doesn't...

1. Add more volume to their beer (bigger deal with a huge starter)

2. Don't want that flavor to mix with the flavor of brew they are looking for.

 

[atreid]

Off flavors aren't an issue since the yeast will clean up after themselves anyway. Most people like to decant so it doesn't...

1. Add more volume to their beer (bigger deal with a huge starter)

2. Don't want that flavor to mix with the flavor of brew they are looking for.

Yeasts don't clean up everything magically. Propagation liquid isn't beer, so nobody want that bad stuff diluting their beer. That's why, like I EXACTLY said, people decant.

Nevertheless, if I don't have time to decant, I'd much rather dilute my beer with a starter BEER than with propagation liquid residue, even though yeast growth will be less efficient.

Then again, if you don't have time to prepare a decent starter, you should keep dry yeast packets in the fridge for those occasions, or buy multiple liquid vials, or learn to better plan your brews...

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Sooooo.... Is the general consensus that I should make the starter, chill, then decant, then allow to warm up and pitch??
Anyways, so I got the stir plate built, and it fired right up. I've tried messing with the magnet placement, but I can't seem to get it right! My stir bar just kinda sets in the bottom of the flask and wobbles. It never really spins. Suggestions?

 

[kh54s10]

Problem with starters without decantation is that people use stir plate so it turns into a propagation with all the off-flavors that go with it when you pitch the whole thing. If you're going to pitch all of it, it makes more sense to make a small batch of beer, meaning a true anaerobic fermentation, and then pitch everything right before active fermentation is over. Reproduction is less effective but at least you get healthy yeast ready to continue on their fermentation beat and the actual juice doesn't taste like crap.

Of course, the best option is always a nice oxygenated propagation with time to decant.

I don't know what you do to make a starter beer but I boil my DME wort for about 5 minutes. I am not about to make a dme beer and boil it with hops for an hour just to make "beer".

I decant because I don't want; 1) the volume of the starter wort in my beer. 2) I don't want the off flavors from the starter wort in my beer. If I am making a small starter (.75L or less) and do not allow time I will pitch it all. There is not enough there to make much difference in 5 gallons of beer.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Disregard... I got it working!! Amazing what a little Googling will do for ya!

 

[Pratzie]

Yeasts don't clean up everything magically. Propagation liquid isn't beer, so nobody want that bad stuff diluting their beer. That's why, like I EXACTLY said, people decant.

Nevertheless, if I don't have time to decant, I'd much rather dilute my beer with a starter BEER than with propagation liquid residue, even though yeast growth will be less efficient.

Then again, if you don't have time to prepare a decent starter, you should keep dry yeast packets in the fridge for those occasions, or buy multiple liquid vials, or learn to better plan your brews...

What your saying doesn't make any sense. Yeast WILL clean up after themselves. Its not magic, its part of the process. Any "off flavors" that are developed in the starter (im assuming thats what ur calling the propogation liquid) will be cleaned up in the fermentation vessel after primary fermentation has completed in that vessel. Thats why people do things like diacetyl rests and extended primary fermentation, to let the yeast work thru the byproducts they've given off.

I'm not seeing how chilling and decanting magically does anything except put the yeast into a slumber and compacts them into a slurry. Most people, especially a lot here on the forum like to pitch their starter during high krausen right into their brew.

Sooooo.... Is the general consensus that I should make the starter, chill, then decant, then allow to warm up and pitch??
Anyways, so I got the stir plate built, and it fired right up. I've tried messing with the magnet placement, but I can't seem to get it right! My stir bar just kinda sets in the bottom of the flask and wobbles. It never really spins. Suggestions?

Try getting some O-rings for each end of ur stir bar. One on each end can usually help make it spin if all its doing is wobbling. Plumbing section of the hardware store should have them.

 

[DanH]

Disregard... I got it working!! Amazing what a little Googling will do for ya!

Stir plates are awesome. Pic?

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Try getting some O-rings for each end of ur stir bar. One on each end can usually help make it spin if all its doing is wobbling. Or you may need stronger magnets. What size are u using?

I believe its a 1" stir bar. Magnet is straight out of a hard drive. I plan on getting an o ring, maybe that'll help a little bit. My errors were this.. 1) didn't get the magnet and the stir bar to "connect" before turning it on, and 2) the fan was going entirely too fast. Slowing it down seemed to help.

It still looks like it really wants to throw off to the side of the flask, so ill try and see if the o rings help.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Here she is!

 

[DanH]

Very professional looking. Solid build. 👍

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Thanks! It had to look nice, so it'd match the blender and the toaster...

 

[kh54s10]

I'm thinking of adding some blue led lighting to mine! Bling!

 

[DanH]

Thanks! It had to look nice, so it'd match the blender and the toaster...

I was gonna write a smart@$$ comment about the other appliances but mine is right next to the same mixer, only my wife has the red one

 

[Pratzie]

awesome build dude, congrats! goodluck with ur starters! Another perk is walking thru ur house when its on and hearing that faint clinking sound while she's going!

Also, another piece of advice. invest in either a foam stopper for the front or sanitize a piece of foil and put it loosely over the top of the flask. No air lock or anything with a rubber band. U want air to get in but to keep the bad things out and both of those two mentioned above do a great job.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

awesome build dude, congrats! goodluck with ur starters!

Thanks!

So, regarding starters... I keep reading conflicting statements regarding decanting. What's the deal? To decant, or not decant.. that is my question! I've read some posts that say to pitch the starter at the height of active fermentation. So, if I'm brewing Monday (wife is outta town for the night!! ) do I do my starter tomorrow, then crash it and decant and pitch Monday? Or do I make my starter Sunday night, and pitch Monday evening?

 

[Pratzie]

Thanks!

So, regarding starters... I keep reading conflicting statements regarding decanting. What's the deal? To decant, or not decant.. that is my question! I've read some posts that say to pitch the starter at the height of active fermentation. So, if I'm brewing Monday (wife is outta town for the night!! ) do I do my starter tomorrow, then crash it and decant and pitch Monday? Or do I make my starter Sunday night, and pitch Monday evening?

Ur always gonna see conflicting stories here, not unlike the argument for or against strict adherence to pitch cell count or the rehydrate/don't rehydrate dry yeast debate. For me personally, some of the people I trust the most and that I've learned the most from on this forum, don't usually chill before they decant. But there's also some people that swear by it. I just have read a lot about the benefits of pitching at high krausen because that is when the yeast cells are strongest and at their most active and to me it makes more sense to do that, then to put them in a slumber and then have to wake them up and pitching afterwards. I have no problem pitching that excess liquid right into my batch with my wort, since it isn't that much to begin with. Ive never tasted any off flavors or anything and ur only using basic DME so ur not gonna get complexity or anything else from it. But its completely up to u. Maybe try it this time and then don't the next and see if u notice anything different and decide if its worth taking the extra time to chill.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Ur always gonna see conflicting stories here, not unlike the argument for or against strict adherence to pitch cell count or the rehydrate/don't rehydrate dry yeast debate. For me personally, some of the people I trust the most and that I've learned the most from on this forum, don't usually chill before they decant. But there's also some people that swear by it. I just have read a lot about the benefits of pitching at high krausen because that is when the yeast cells are strongest and at their most active and to me it makes more sense to do that, then to put them in a slumber and then have to wake them up and pitching afterwards. I have no problem pitching that excess liquid right into my batch with my wort, since it isn't that much to begin with. Ive never tasted any off flavors or anything and ur only using basic DME so ur not gonna get complexity or anything else from it. But its completely up to u. Maybe try it this time and then don't the next and see if u notice anything different and decide if its worth taking the extra time to chill.

Yeah, I learned loooong ago, that there is definitely always conflicting opinions on EVERYTHING in homebrewing! Lol. I'm leaning towards pitching at high krausen, like you, it seems to make the most sense to me. So, that would mean I need to start my starter 12-18 hours prior to when I want to pitch, correct?

 

[DanH]

I don't think it matters. I'd call it personal preference. Chilling and decanting seems right to me so that's what I do. Try both and decide. I wouldn't worry about ruining the beer with either method. It'll be fine.

 

[Pratzie]

yeah normally if im gonna be brewing around noon on a Saturday, i'll make mine in the evening on Friday night. and make sure its on the stir plate by say 8 or 10 at the latest. That way after a brew day I usually have the wort ready to pitch by 3-4 the next afternoon for about a 18 hour or so window.

 

[atreid]

What your saying doesn't make any sense.

I give up really... I don't think I can make it any clearer with the short time I have to write... Just because I'm a biotechnology process Engineer doesn't make me good at explaining I guess...

I all agree about the krausen pitching btw... it's just that most people krausen pitching will actually end up underpitching... Correct krausen pitching is really an art. Ask the belgians...

 

[irelandk]

Day three of fermenting in a bucket and still no air bubble in the airlock. Is something wrong?

 

[kh54s10]

Day three of fermenting in a bucket and still no air bubble in the airlock. Is something wrong?

Probably not. Buckets are notorious for leaking at the seal. Wait another day or two then open the lid look for krausen or residue on the sides above the wort and/or take a gravity sample. If it is lower than your OG the beer is fermenting.

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Another quick question... I've downloaded the Mr Malty app, and punched in my numbers for a starter. According to the app, my yeast is 44% viable. My OG is 1.058, so Mr. Malty says I need a 1L starter, and 2 packages of yeast (Wyeast Dennys Favorite). Well, I don't have 2 packages! Am I ok to go ahead and just make a 2L starter with 1 pack?

 

[atreid]

Another quick question... I've downloaded the Mr Malty app, and punched in my numbers for a starter. According to the app, my yeast is 44% viable. My OG is 1.058, so Mr. Malty says I need a 1L starter, and 2 packages of yeast (Wyeast Dennys Favorite). Well, I don't have 2 packages! Am I ok to go ahead and just make a 2L starter with 1 pack?

It's not a linear relation like that. Did you try messing with the sliding bar at the bottom to set it all the way toward the "use less yeast packs"?

You should really use yeastcalc.com instead. It seems more up to date and definitely less annoying with the forced multiple starting yeast packs. Plus you can do calculations for multiple steps starters... very useful for old yeast packs...

 

[Bluelinebrewer]

Thanks! Checked out yeastcalc.com and it looks like I'll be ok with the 2L starter.