yeast starter questions?

[LuciferSam]

I am brewing my 5th batch, and cant get enough. from this site ive learned soo much. Im currently building a keezer and a stirplate. Im on my third zombie dust clone, and i have a lot of questions (i hate typing!) sorry for my errors -
1. I use the Yeast Pitching Rate Calculator on mr malty my OG is 1.063. so exactly how much water and DME do i need for a 5.5gal batch? how can i properly read this calculator? I have a 2L Flask an Im using whitelabs english ale 002 yeast. I understand the idea that I need 150 billion yeasties but only have 100 so I use a starter to 'grow' more? how can i be sure?

2. Ive never done this so tell me if im correct, in theory? sanitize the flask. add proper amount of water. boil. add proper amount of DME. bring to room temp. add yeast. let sit on stirplate for 24-36hrs, at room temp with foil on top. put in fridge until use, or add to room temp wort?

3. I was going to try washing this yeast after fermentation as well. Simply pour the yeast cake into mason jars and use again? is it that simple?

 

[IL1kebeer]

1. Yeastcalc.com has a calculator for water and dme amounts. Just put desired OG for your starter and how many liters and it will calculate how much water and dme to use

2. You don't need to sanitize the flask if it is made out of borosilicate and you are boiling it directly on your stove. You do need to make sure it is cleaned before each use though. The rest of your process is pretty spot on. I usually mix the dme and water with a whisk in a large bowl and the pour it in the flask through a funnel. Don't forget foam control for large starters. They can boil over fairly easily. Yeast nutrient isn't a bad idea either. I add both when in mixing the dme and water in the bowl. They aren't necessary for a starter but they can help.

3. Hopefully someone else will chime in with their 2 cents for washing (I don't wash). There is also a sticky about washing in the fermentation forum

 

[Glynn]

I have never used thos site but I always do a 1 ltr starter for all my ales. just add the dme and water to your flask and boil it. cover it and cool it down in a water bath and pitch your yeast when there the same temp. I prefer to let my starter go until there done (5 days or so) and then crash em. Then pour off most of the old beer, swirl and add to the fermenter.
the basics of yeast washing. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/

 

[IL1kebeer]

I have never used thos site but I always do a 1 ltr starter for all my ales. just add the dme and water to your flask and boil it. cover it and cool it down in a water bath and pitch your yeast when there the same temp. I prefer to let my starter go until there done (5 days or so) and then crash em. Then pour off most of the old beer, swirl and add to the fermenter.
the basics of yeast washing. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/

24-36 hrs is fine. I wouldn't let it go for 5 days. They are done fermenting after 24 hours anyway. I've taken a gravity reading to test it. Keeping them awake for longer will burn through their reserves. If u aren't going to chill you can pitch at 18-24 hrs. If u are going to chill then let it finish at about 24-36 hrs and then chill.

 

[duboman]

Www.yeastcalc.com

Plug int the gravity and date of pack. Select your method of stirring-use K.troester for stir plate. Select size of starter and if the number is green that's the size you need, otherwise add another step.

The small box on the left will tell you how much DmE you need.

You first weigh out the DME and add to flask, then fill with water up to desired volume and mix it up, then boil, chill, pitch yeast and shake/stir plate.

Allow 18-24 hours to ferment out, refrigerate, decant and pitch. Or perform second step if necessary

 

[Glynn]

24-36 hrs is fine. I wouldn't let it go for 5 days. They are done fermenting after 24 hours anyway. I've taken a gravity reading to test it. Keeping them awake for longer will burn through their reserves. If u aren't going to chill you can pitch at 18-24 hrs. If u are going to chill then let it finish at about 24-36 hrs and then chill.

So you have peeked my interest. what are the benefits of not letting it go so long. With the way I'm doing it most of my batches kick off with in the first 12 hrs or less

 

[LuciferSam]

thanks for all the info. im waiting for my stir bar and flask and i will be on my way .

 

[IL1kebeer]

So you have peeked my interest. what are the benefits of not letting it go so long. With the way I'm doing it most of my batches kick off with in the first 12 hrs or less

When making a starter the objective is to grow healthy yeast, not make beer. So pitching after the growth phase is over is preferred. There is no benefit to keep the starter going if the growth is over and their reserves are built up (if you are chilling). They use their reserves faster if they are finished fermenting and are still sitting at fermentation temps. If you are pitching at high krausen (18-24 hrs usually) then you don't have to worry about their reserves.

Beer can still be made by fermenting the starter for 5 days, as you have experienced. The yeast might not be in the best shape and are probably not in their worst shape. They certainly won't be as healthy as if the starter is pitched at high krausen or if they are chilled after fermentation is over.

Big deal? Maybe. Depends on the brewer. Some will notice a difference and some wont. And then there are some that will notice and not care. I personally strive to make the best beer possible and pitching healthy yeast helps a lot.

 

[LuciferSam]

O k 1 sanitize flask, 2 add 7.1 ounces of DME & nutrients, but how much?(1063 og) add water to fill up to 2Liters. 3 boil for 15mins. 4 cool to room temp , add yeast. 5 leave on stir plate for 24hrs. 6 pitch to 5 gallon batch or refrigerate?

 

[whoaru99]

I came up with roughly 4L starter using just one vial of yeast in a single step...

 

[LuciferSam]

4L starter? Does this mean I need 2 2L flasks? I am confused???

 

[LuciferSam]

4L starter? Does this mean I need 2 2L flasks? I am confused???

Yes I am using 1 vial of white labs English ale yeast W002.

 

[LuciferSam]

??

 

[duboman]

4L starter? Does this mean I need 2 2L flasks? I am confused???

It means you first make a 2L starter, ferment, crash, decant as already described. Then in another vessel make another 2L starter(another vessel is simply a pot). Chill and add this wort to the flask. Shake it all up and ferment it, chill it and decant on brew day to pitch. This is called a 2step starter

 

[LuciferSam]

these are my supplies :
- 1 : vial of whitelabs english ale yeast WLP002
- DME ( this is my question? how much? )
- 1 : 2L Flask
- 1 : Homade Stirplate
- Water
This is what Im doing :
Brewing another delicous 5.5 Gallon batch of zombie dust clone beer.

How can I get the proper yeast count for this recipie OG 1.063/ FG 1.018?

Using these tools for a 5.5 gallon batch how do I make a proper starter? I'm not an idiot , but I just want to get this right...

 

[whoaru99]

There are many threads here on HBT that can be found regarding single and multi step starters.

 

[duboman]

these are my supplies :
- 1 : vial of whitelabs english ale yeast WLP002
- DME ( this is my question? how much? )
- 1 : 2L Flask
- 1 : Homade Stirplate
- Water
This is what Im doing :
Brewing another delicous 5.5 Gallon batch of zombie dust clone beer.

How can I get the proper yeast count for this recipie OG 1.063/ FG 1.018?

Using these tools for a 5.5 gallon batch how do I make a proper starter? I'm not an idiot , but I just want to get this right...

First: Visit www.yeastcalc.com
Plug your date of pack and gravity of batch and batch size into the calculator
Based upon viability it will tell you the number of cells required to properly pitch.
Then look at the different steps to calculate your starter size. With a 2L flask I would make the first step 1.5 liter, add 150 grams DME to flask, add water to 1.5L mark and shake to dissolve. Bring to boil for 5 minutes, chill down to 80 or below and place on stir plate.

18-24 hours later it should be done. Place in fridge for 24 hours, remove and decant. In separate vessel, pot, make another starter wort based upon size required in second step. Repeat process, pour into original flask, stir plate another 18-24 hours, fridge and decant on brew day.

YEast calc will tell you what you need to know so bookmark the page and use for every starter you make. It will tell you how much DME, how many steps, etc.

When selecting the stir option I use k.troester as he has done a lot of work regarding predicted cell growth using a stir plate.

Hope this all helps!

 

[whoaru99]

Thanks for taking the time to tell me to tell me to look for the information elsewhere... Very insightful

Yeah, I'm a little old school inasmuch as I like to see people make somewhat of an effort first.

But considering the nice guy I am, here's a hint. "yeast starter" site:homebrewtalk.com

 

[istuntmanmike]

these are my supplies :
- 1 : vial of whitelabs english ale yeast WLP002
- DME ( this is my question? how much? )
- 1 : 2L Flask
- 1 : Homade Stirplate
- Water
This is what Im doing :
Brewing another delicous 5.5 Gallon batch of zombie dust clone beer.

How can I get the proper yeast count for this recipie OG 1.063/ FG 1.018?

Using these tools for a 5.5 gallon batch how do I make a proper starter? I'm not an idiot , but I just want to get this right...

Have you gone to yeastcalc.com and plugged in those numbers...?

You're making an ale. Select Ale.
You're making 5.5 gal. Plug in 5.5 gal.
You stated your OG. Plug that in.

Those three steps (2, since ale is default) will tell you how many yeast cells in billions you will need.


Figuring out how much DME to use is separate from the rest of the calculator. All you need to do is adjust the volume to however much you're making. If you make 2L in a 2L flask, you might run into issues with the krausen overflowing. Leave the Starter OG at default, plug in your starter volume, and you will be told exactly how much DME to use.


To figure out if you need to make a starter, plug in the date of manufacture of your yeast vial. On WhiteLabs vials, the date printed is 4 months from the date of manufacture. So subtract 4 months from the best-by date, and plug that in (Wyeast smack packs have the date of manufacture printed right on them). If the "Viable cell count" number is green, you're fine to pitch the vial by itself. If it is black (and the number is less than "Yeast Cells Needed" directly above it), you need to make a starter, or use more vials of yeast.

If you need a starter, use the bottom section of the calculator. Select your aeration technique, plug in the starter volume you'll be using, and see if "Total cells at finish" is green. If it's not, then move on to a 2nd step and even a 3rd if necessary.

You haven't posted your yeast manufacture date. Without that we couldn't tell you how much of a starter you'd need, so just plug the numbers in as I showed and you should be on your way, if nothing else you should be able to figure it out from there on your own.

5.5gal of ale with OG of 1.063 requires 241 billion cells. So make a starter that reaches that, or get more yeast vials.

Sincerely,
Another brand-new brewer who figured it out like whoaru wanted, but who was just a little bit more helpful

 

[Gear101]

4 Liter starter just sounds insane. I can get away with a 800ml start. Making one right now. 4 liter starter is close to 1/5 of your overall 5 gallon ferm, does that not change the profile of your beer?

 

[freisste]

4 Liter starter just sounds insane. I can get away with a 800ml start. Making one right now. 4 liter starter is close to 1/5 of your overall 5 gallon ferm, does that not change the profile of your beer?

It does sound a little crazy, but not if the yeast is a little old, its a high gravity brew, or its a lager.

And 4 liters doesn't affect beer profile if you decant the liquid off.

 

[Gear101]

You have to crash and decant. LOL

 

[whoaru99]

Yup. The starter for the lager (5gal) I made was two stage up to 7L. The slurry that got poured into the wort was a whole lot less volume than 7L after decanting - didn't measure it but my guess would be somewhat less than 1 liter of thick yeast slurry went in.

 

[LuciferSam]

Thanks for the info istuntmanmike . Your help is greatly appreciated.
My yeast best by date is aug. 17 2013
I still haven't started this yet but if you say this beer needs 250+ billion yeast, don't I need 2.5 vials , or how much DME & h20 do I need to make 1 vial produce this much?
Thanks again...

 

[kh54s10]

Thanks for the info istuntmanmike . Your help is greatly appreciated.
My yeast best by date is aug. 17 2013
I still haven't started this yet but if you say this beer needs 250+ billion yeast, don't I need 2.5 vials , or how much DME & h20 do I need to make 1 vial produce this much?
Thanks again...

This is all explained on mrmalty.com and yeastcalc.com. The idea of making a starter is so that you don't have to pitch multiple vials and that you are getting the optimum cell counts based on the date of production of the yeast. The viable cell count in a vial of yeast decreases with age.

How much DME and water depends on the age of the yeast, the amount you are starting with, the gravity of the beer, the type of beer, the amount of beer etc.

Go read the directions for using the calculators, play around with them for a while and you will see what happens when you change something. For instance how many cells would be needed for 3 gallons as opposed to 5 of a same gravity ale.

 

[LovesIPA]

The yeast calculator gives you one piece of critical information and one interesting but not terribly useful fact.

The critical information is how big your starter should be. Let's say it says you need a 1.3 L starter. Your wort should be mixed at a rate of 100g DME per liter of water, so you would need 130 grams of DME in roughly 1500 ml of water. The extra 200ml is boil-off - your equipment may vary.

When you're done boiling you should have 1.3L of wort. Pitch your yeast and call it good. You aren't going to actually count the number of yeast in your starter, so I don't think it's necessary to concern yourself with the count. This is why it's interesting but not real useful. You don't have direct control over the population. As long as you prepare a correctly-sized starter the yeast should be close enough.

This is what I do, and it works well for me. I'm sure there are better and more accurate methods.

 

[Gear101]

The real question is, how counted the yeast cell to begin with, really would hate to be that guy.

 

[freisste]

The real question is, how counted the yeast cell to begin with, really would hate to be that guy.

I'm sure you're kidding, but if anybody wondered I think they get a good even slurry, take a small sample and spread it out really thin. Then take a small area of that, get a good cell count and extrapolate. The whole thing is very statistical and takes some assumptions into account, but I think it is generally accepted. I'm certainly not going to recount!