Yeast starter help

[Bhamsteelerfan]

I'm making a yeast starter for a Belgian IPA. I built a stir plate and used it for the first time yesterday. Made a 1600 ML stater in a 2L flask using the Mr. Malty formula. After only 8 hours on the stir plate, the krausen reached the top of the flask. I was afraid of overflow, so I turned off the stir plate before I went to bed. Even the stir plate off, I still had some overflow over the night. Tried putting a stopper/airlock on the flask and cranking up the stir plate again, but I had foam coming out of the airlock within a minute.

Any recommendations? I wanted to give the starter 48 hours on the stir plate, but I don't see that happening. The owner of my LHBS said not to worry -- that I should already have plenty of yeast for my brew (OG 1.064). What do you guys think?

 

[Fermented_minds]

I'm making a yeast starter for a Belgian IPA. I built a stir plate and used it for the first time yesterday. Made a 1600 ML stater in a 2L flask using the Mr. Malty formula. After only 8 hours on the stir plate, the krausen reached the top of the flask. I was afraid of overflow, so I turned off the stir plate before I went to bed. Even the stir plate off, I still had some overflow over the night. Tried putting a stopper/airlock on the flask and cranking up the stir plate again, but I had foam coming out of the airlock within a minute.

Any recommendations? I wanted to give the starter 48 hours on the stir plate, but I don't see that happening. The owner of my LHBS said not to worry -- that I should already have plenty of yeast for my brew (OG 1.064). What do you guys think?

Don't worry about the overflow. It happens. Just keep things sanitary.

So far as the 48 hours for a starter, that's a long time. Personally, I do 24 hours for Saccharomyces and 72-96 for Brett. I like pitching at peak activity.

Good luck!

 

[Bhamsteelerfan]

Definitely keeping it sanitary. So should I just let it sit since stirring just causes a mess, wait for the krausen to fall, decant, and pitch tomorrow during brew day?

Attached is a photo of how the starter looked this morning.

 

[Fermented_minds]

Definitely keeping it sanitary. So should I just let it sit since stirring just causes a mess, wait for the krausen to fall, decant, and pitch tomorrow during brew day?

Attached is a photo of how the starter looked this morning.

I don't even decant. If you're adding less than 10% of the total volume of the beer as starter, you're fine.

 

[kh54s10]

Some yeasts foam a lot some almost none. Can you slow the stirring speed. All you really need is a constant light stirring. I would leave it on the stirplate and let it go for about 18-24 hours. If you have time before pitching, chill in in the refrigerator until the liquid is clear and all the yeast is on the bottom. Then pour off the starter "beer". Leave just a little to swirl up the yeast for easier pouring.

If it has already gone for more than 24 hours, put it in the fridge to settle so you can decant.

An expensive solution to your problem = bigger flask!

Some brewers use Fermcap S in the starter to control foaming.

 

[ColoHox]

I like to decant my starters. I haven't done a blind taste test (so it might be in my head) but I can tell when I pitch starter wort into my beer.

I throw my starter in the fridge the night before brewing, take it out when I start so it can warm up a little. Then decant, and add some freshly chilled wort, swirl and pitch.

 

[kh54s10]

I decant everything bigger than 1 liter, and most that are smaller. I just don't want too much nasty starter "beer" going into a good batch.

 

[flars]

Definitely keeping it sanitary. So should I just let it sit since stirring just causes a mess, wait for the krausen to fall, decant, and pitch tomorrow during brew day?

Attached is a photo of how the starter looked this morning.

Let it continue on the stir plate. The most active part of the fermentation may be over. Either way you will end up with more propagated yeast in suspension than you will lose in an overflow of krausen.

This is my starter container. 1. 1 gallons and only $6.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/new-yeast-starter-container-61619.html

 

[Bhamsteelerfan]

Okay, replaced foil with airlock. As you can see, the airlock is already super foamy. Cut the stir plate down to its lowest setting. Got a lot of bubbles emerging from the airlock now. Guess I'm going to have overflow no matter what. Should I replace the airlock since it's all foamy, or should I just leave it alone?

 

[flars]

Yes, remove the airlock. Starving the yeast of oxygen for won't really help anymore. Put the foil back on.

Starter containers should be at least twice the size of a starter. Won't help you now, but I also had some graphic learning examples when I first started.

 

[Bhamsteelerfan]

Yeah, definitely figuring that out now. Think I'll find a gallon jar and use that in the future.

 

[insanim8er]

I'm making a yeast starter for a Belgian IPA. I built a stir plate and used it for the first time yesterday. Made a 1600 ML stater in a 2L flask using the Mr. Malty formula. After only 8 hours on the stir plate, the krausen reached the top of the flask. I was afraid of overflow, so I turned off the stir plate before I went to bed. Even the stir plate off, I still had some overflow over the night. Tried putting a stopper/airlock on the flask and cranking up the stir plate again, but I had foam coming out of the airlock within a minute.

Any recommendations? I wanted to give the starter 48 hours on the stir plate, but I don't see that happening. The owner of my LHBS said not to worry -- that I should already have plenty of yeast for my brew (OG 1.064). What do you guys think?

And this is why I upgraded to a 5L flask(that and I do 11gal batches). I literally just finished my first starter in it a few minutes ago. It's so worth it. It's even easier to chill because of the surface exposure and requires less ice water.

This is a pix with a 2L starter. I'll step it up another liter tomorrow.

 

[Bhamsteelerfan]

Airlock off, foil (sanitized) on. Restarted stir plate a lower speed. So far, so good.

 

[Fermented_minds]

I like to decant my starters. I haven't done a blind taste test (so it might be in my head) but I can tell when I pitch starter wort into my beer.

I'd be interested to hear more about this blind taste test. I've used up to 10% of total volume as starter, and have not tasted oxidized flavors it in even the lightest of beers.

 

[kh54s10]

I'd be interested to hear more about this blind taste test. I've used up to 10% of total volume as starter, and have not tasted oxidized flavors it in even the lightest of beers.

You may not notice the difference in taste, but you are putting a beer (up to 10%) that was fermented in bad conditions into your carefully brewed batch.

Why do you want to do this?

 

[Fermented_minds]

You may not notice the difference in taste, but you are putting a beer (up to 10%) that was fermented in bad conditions into your carefully brewed batch.

Why do you want to do this?

What's bad about it? Because it's lightly oxidized? If you only have a starter going for 24 hours or less, most of the oxygen is being utilized by the yeast. I taste my starter wort as I pitch (from a stir plate with foil on top), and it is only lightly oxidized. I have never had an issue with oxidized flavors in my finished beers. If your starter wort is that beat up, you running your starters waaaay to long.

Since you ask the question why would someone put "bad" beer in a good beer, I have to ask myself: Why would you cold crash highly metabolically active yeast and halt their metabolic processes right before pitching into wort? Seems pretty counter productive to me.

Either way, brewing is all process driven. My process is such that there is no noticeable off flavors pitching < 10% of total volume as starter. If your process is such that you get off flavors, well then... decant away!

 

[insanim8er]

You may not notice the difference in taste, but you are putting a beer (up to 10%) that was fermented in bad conditions into your carefully brewed batch.

Why do you want to do this?

But my understanding is your oxidization flavors are a chemical reaction to the hops. It's not from the malt sugar or alcohol. Starters don't have hops in them. When introduced to the beer with hops, the yeast absorb that oxygen.

 

[Bhamsteelerfan]

Okay, one last thing I need help with. I created the starter at 2 pm yesterday. I shut off the stir plate at 11 pm and just now have it back up and running. My brew day is planned for Sunday morning-early afternoon. I want a good strong starter (I'm judging by the activity I'm well on my way). When should I shut down the stir pate and get it in the fridge to cold crash so I can decant it and pitch it Sunday?

 

[kh54s10]

What's bad about it? Because it's lightly oxidized? If you only have a starter going for 24 hours or less, most of the oxygen is being utilized by the yeast. I taste my starter wort as I pitch (from a stir plate with foil on top), and it is only lightly oxidized. I have never had an issue with oxidized flavors in my finished beers. If your starter wort is that beat up, you running your starters waaaay to long.

Since you ask the question why would someone put "bad" beer in a good beer, I have to ask myself: Why would you cold crash highly metabolically active yeast and halt their metabolic processes right before pitching into wort? Seems pretty counter productive to me.

Either way, brewing is all process driven. My process is such that there is no noticeable off flavors pitching < 10% of total volume as starter. If your process is such that you get off flavors, well then... decant away!

Would you make a beer, put it on a huge stir plate, allow plenty of oxygen in, ferment at warm to hot temperatures and expect it to be any good?

If you don't care about mixing the starter liquid into a beer that you have taken pains to make just right, go ahead. It will be <10% nasty!

I will continue to decant. I also let the yeast warm back up to pitching temperatures before pitching. They do become metabolically active again, don't they?

To each his own....

 

[ColoHox]

But my understanding is your oxidization flavors are a chemical reaction to the hops. It's not from the malt sugar or alcohol. Starters don't have hops in them. When introduced to the beer with hops, the yeast absorb that oxygen.

Oxidation reactions are occurring constantly in beer, regardless of style or storage. It is not just a hops + oxygen equation, oxidation can affect nearly all aspects of beer biochemistry, and I do hop my starters BTW. By pitching spent wort, you are also throwing in a cocktail of unpredictable aerobic respiration by-products, which I certainly do not want in my beer.

Also, the amount of unconsumed oxygen in the starter is not really a concern, as you are then pitching the culture. However, there are already oxygen-related byproducts and off flavors in that wort, some of which have a very low flavor threshold.

 

[ColoHox]

Okay, one last thing I need help with. I created the starter at 2 pm yesterday. I shut off the stir plate at 11 pm and just now have it back up and running. My brew day is planned for Sunday morning-early afternoon. I want a good strong starter (I'm judging by the activity I'm well on my way). When should I shut down the stir pate and get it in the fridge to cold crash so I can decant it and pitch it Sunday?

I throw it in the fridge the night before, then decant and warm it up once I start the boil.

 

[kh54s10]

Okay, one last thing I need help with. I created the starter at 2 pm yesterday. I shut off the stir plate at 11 pm and just now have it back up and running. My brew day is planned for Sunday morning-early afternoon. I want a good strong starter (I'm judging by the activity I'm well on my way). When should I shut down the stir pate and get it in the fridge to cold crash so I can decant it and pitch it Sunday?

I would let it go until you go to bed tonight or tomorrow morning then put it into the fridge. It should be fine by pitching time on Sunday.

 

[Fermented_minds]

Would you make a beer, put it on a huge stir plate, allow plenty of oxygen in, ferment at warm to hot temperatures and expect it to be any good?

If you don't care about mixing the starter liquid into a beer that you have taken pains to make just right, go ahead. It will be <10% nasty!

I will continue to decant. I also let the yeast warm back up to pitching temperatures before pitching. They do become metabolically active again, don't they?

To each his own....

Perhaps you'd indulge me in providing some reasoning for why aerated starter wort aerated by stirring only with access to atmospheric oxygen is "bad", but why wort produced to make beer which is heavily aerated by many brewers with pure O2 in which oxygen is in concentrations of a stirred starter wort is "good".

Oh, I know why, it's because the yeast are using the oxygen! Like I mentioned above, if you're starter wort tastes that terrible, you have a major process issue or you're letting your starter run far beyond the point at which the yeast are using the O2 and creating new cells, which is the point you should be pitching the yeast. Some of the best breweries in the world use yeast propagators to propagate large quantities of yeast for direct pitching, in which they constantly aerate. They don't decant their props, and the beer is great.

http://www.mbaa.com/districts/michigan/events/Documents/2011_01_14PracticalPropagation.pdf

You'll find slide 31 most interesting, Bells indicating they pitched 120 L of "starter volume" into 1880 L total volume. Maybe you should email Bells to let them know their beer would be "6.4% less nasty" if they cold crashed their starter. lol

 

[ColoHox]

Perhaps you'd indulge me in providing some reasoning for why aerated starter wort aerated by stirring only with access to atmospheric oxygen is "bad", but why wort produced to make beer which is heavily aerated by many brewers with pure O2 in which oxygen is in concentrations of a stirred starter wort is "good".

Oh, I know why, it's because the yeast are using the oxygen! Like I mentioned above, if you're starter wort tastes that terrible, you have a major process issue or you're letting your starter run far beyond the point at which the yeast are using the O2 and creating new cells, which is the point you should be pitching the yeast. Some of the best breweries in the world use yeast propagators to propagate large quantities of yeast for direct pitching, in which they constantly aerate. They don't decant their props, and the beer is great.

http://www.mbaa.com/districts/michigan/events/Documents/2011_01_14PracticalPropagation.pdf

You'll find slide 31 most interesting, Bells indicating they pitched 120 L of "starter volume" into 1880 L total volume. Maybe you should email Bells to let them know their beer would be "6.4% less nasty" if they cold crashed their starter. lol

As I mentioned, the oxygenation of the starter wort is less of a concern, it's the by products contained therein. There are many aspects of brewing on a commercial scale that do not translate to the homebrewing world. You're oddly defensive in the face of tested knowledge from experienced brewers. I can post a link that says decant your wort:
http://morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

Cheers.

 

[Fermented_minds]

As I mentioned, the oxygenation of the starter wort is less of a concern, it's the by products contained therein. There are many aspects of brewing on a commercial scale that do not translate to the homebrewing world. You're oddly defensive in the face of tested knowledge from experienced brewers. I can post a link that says decant your wort:
http://morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen

Cheers.

My initial point was that you can make great beers either way, decanting or not and that this is all process driven. To say one way produces beer that is "10% nastier" is kind of a foolish thing to say just because your process isn't robust/optimal enough to support it. Not trying to come off as an a-hole or anything, but sometimes I can't hold back the sarcasm when a homebrewer rips a technique used by another that is used in the same way, in both form and function, in the commercial setting with stellar results. Yes, there are some things that certainly do not transfer from commercial to homebrewing or the other way, but starters/props are pretty much the same: start with sterile wort (for me anyways), continual agitation, continual aeration. They certainly are better off on the commercial scale as they can closely monitor things like potential off flavors, yeast growth, O2 levels, etc.

Either way, I've said my peace on the issue. This is just one of those topics that some people do it one way, some people do it the other way.

Cheers, and have a good weekend!