Yeast Pitching and Final Gravity??

[mstry510]

I feel like I have a good understanding of pitching rates, the math behind starter size and yeast propagation. But one thing I cannot get my head around is figuring out what my final gravity will be based on OG and the number of Billions of yeast cells I pitch. Here is what I'm brewing next.

5.5 Gal Gallons
1.087 OG
1056 Yeast 2? smack packs
Ferment @ 64F ramp up slowly to 67F over 5 days

I normally finish around 1.013-1.018 SG

I want it to finish out sweeter this time, at about 1.021 SG

I usually do a 1.5L starter with 1 or 2 X 1056 smack pack and 4-8oz DME on stirplate for 18hrs @ 71F

Not sure how to adjust my starter or if maybe 2 smack packs with no starter is the way to go. Hope you guys can help. Thank you in advance

 

[LovesIPA]

The number of cells pitched doesn't really affect FG. That has more to do with the yeast strain than anything else. The Wyeast 1056 attenuates pretty well and you want a yeast that doesn't. Google for "yeast attenuation chart" and choose a strain that suits the style you're brewing and attenuates lower.

 

[Yooper]

The number of cells pitched doesn't really affect FG. That has more to do with the yeast strain than anything else. The Wyeast 1056 attenuates pretty well and you want a yeast that doesn't. Google for "yeast attenuation chart" and choose a strain that suits the style you're brewing and attenuates lower.

In addition, mash temperatures and ingredients play a far more important role in attenuation than even yeast strain. A warmer mash temperature and ingredients that are less fermentable will result in a higher FG, even with a very attenuative yeast strain.

 

[LovesIPA]

^^ Yep, an excellent point.

 

[mstry510]

Thank you both for the insight. I will be sure to think about my ingredients more thoroughly in my next design. I already have everything set for brewing tomorrow. Any thoughts on how got it to finish higher than 1.017.

Here is my grain bill:

Mash 152F for 60min
12lbs two row pale
2lbs crystal 40
2lbs honey
1lb munich
8oz carapils
4oz corn sugar
4oz light brown sugar

 

[Yooper]

Thank you both for the insight. I will be sure to think about my ingredients more thoroughly in my next design. I already have everything set for brewing tomorrow. Any thoughts on how got it to finish higher than 1.017.

Here is my grain bill:

Mash 152F for 60min
12lbs two row pale
2lbs crystal 40
2lbs honey
1lb munich
8oz carapils
4oz corn sugar
4oz light brown sugar

That's a very unusual recipe.

You've got 2 pounds of crystal 40L, which would normally mean a sweet finish. But two pounds of honey is fully fermentable, so it counter acts that. The corn sugar is fully fermentable, as is the brown sugar. But then there is carapils? And Munich malt?

It's a schizophrenic recipe, so I have no idea what the final FG will be. Perhaps the recipe author can tell you the goals for this beer, but I just can't figure it out. I've never seen anything like it, so I can't even begin to guess.

 

[jonmohno]

I would use a yeast a little less attenative than 1056,if you want a higher finish,but you could get there maybe if u mash high.Good luck on the recipe,I would cut all sugars in half,its a big enough beer,but it could finish high with all that abv it has,not shure what 1056 abv tolerance is as far as abv,so it could finish high anyway. From what I know I guess 1.087 is not too high for 1056 with starters-so maybe it would attenuate pretty good with enough cells. Although that would make it lower than youd want especially with more sugars like your using. I get pretty low finishes using that percentage of sugars. A 30% honey ale finished at 1.003 to give you an idea but I didnt use as much, if any off the amount of crystal malts you used also.

 

[day_trippr]

The number of cells pitched doesn't really affect FG.[...]

If that was true, there wouldn't be any need for the plethora of pitch calculators, or starters, or pretty much anything save for a magic bullet of yeast, regardless of batch size and gravity...

Cheers!

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

If that was true, there wouldn't be any need for the plethora of pitch calculators, or starters, or pretty much anything save for a magic bullet of yeast, regardless of batch size and gravity...

Cheers!

The reason we use calculators and starters is so to not stress the yeast we do pitch. Under pitching will still get you the same attenuation but will give you a greater chance of esters and off flavors. Same for over pitching. Just trying to make the most conducive environment for happy yeast. But I have to agree that regardless of quantity pitched you will still wind up with generally the same FG wether over/under/proper pitching of viable yeast.

 

[day_trippr]

The reason we use calculators and starters is so to not stress the yeast we do pitch. Under pitching will still get you the same attenuation but will give you a greater chance of esters and off flavors. Same for over pitching.[...]

I do not believe that is correct. From my own experiments I have intentionally under-pitched and over-pitched the exact same strain of yeast in a split batch and saw a very large difference in attenuation. How many posts by newbs that pitched a single vial of yeast into a batch that any calculator would state either multiple vials or a big starter was required and ended up with a "stuck fermentation" way above the intended FG does it take to make an impression? And there have been plenty of people that pitched on top of a full yeast cake only to find the resulting beer was extremely thin as a result. I've used that over-pitch phenomenon to take some yeasts way beyond the attenuation rates claimed by the manufacturers, particularly on barley wines and huge IPAs.

Bottom line, I believe you're not attributing the proper significance to pitching rates versus attenuation, even while there is more than ample evidence to support that notion...

Cheers!

 

[mstry510]

That's a very unusual recipe.

You've got 2 pounds of crystal 40L, which would normally mean a sweet finish. But two pounds of honey is fully fermentable, so it counter acts that. The corn sugar is fully fermentable, as is the brown sugar. But then there is carapils? And Munich malt?

It's a schizophrenic recipe, so I have no idea what the final FG will be. Perhaps the recipe author can tell you the goals for this beer, but I just can't figure it out. I've never seen anything like it, so I can't even begin to guess.

Thank you very much. I guess I am a little schizophrenic but not off my rocker. Until your comments I did not know that Honey Malt is fully fermentable, countering my crystal 40 addition. I will spend much more time in the future getting to know my malts and there fermentable sugar rates. As for what I am going for, is a really unique grain flavor profile and body. I will post the results and any last minute changes. I love all of your comments and help. I do not have a big ego nor do I think I have a sufficient understanding to call myself a really good brewer at this point. But I will say that I have not made a bad beer to this date. I'm very attentive to all the numbers and am learning about ingredients.

 

[Yooper]

Thank you very much. I guess I am a little schizophrenic but not off my rocker. Until your comments I did not know that Honey Malt is fully fermentable, countering my crystal 40 addition. I will spend much more time in the future getting to know my malts and there fermentable sugar rates. As for what I am going for, is a really unique grain flavor profile and body. I will post the results and any last minute changes. I love all of your comments and help. I do not have a big ego nor do I think I have a sufficient understanding to call myself a really good brewer at this point. But I will say that I have not made a bad beer to this date. I'm very attentive to all the numbers and am learning about ingredients.

Honey malt is NOT fully fermentable! But honey IS. And the recipe says "honey". If it's honey malt, then it will be a sweet beer. If it's honey, it won't be as much. But that's a ton (as in a TON) of honey malt in a 5 gallon batch.

If you look at the ingredients as a whole, with two pounds of crystal already, that may be very very sweet if that is honey malt.

As a rule of thumb, consider using 15% crystal malt as a max for sweet beers. Honey malt should be included in that total, and used in less quantity than crystal malt. Corn sugar and brown sugar are fully fermentable, but fermented brown sugar does leave a slight odd molasses flavor behind while the corn sugar won't. I'd leave those out, unless you have a pressing need to use them, and consider cutting down the honey malt (if that's what it is) and crystal malt quite a lot.

If you want a higher FG, the easiest and most dependable fix is to mash higher. Mash at 156-158, and you should end at 1.018-1.020 for many recipes.

 

[OSBrain]

I'm with Yooper. The grain bill is going to make this beer super sweet. Honey malt is pretty strong stuff.

What style are you shooting for?

 

[mstry510]

Honey malt is NOT fully fermentable! But honey IS. And the recipe says "honey". If it's honey malt, then it will be a sweet beer. If it's honey, it won't be as much. But that's a ton (as in a TON) of honey malt in a 5 gallon batch.

If you look at the ingredients as a whole, with two pounds of crystal already, that may be very very sweet if that is honey malt.

As a rule of thumb, consider using 15% crystal malt as a max for sweet beers. Honey malt should be included in that total, and used in less quantity than crystal malt. Corn sugar and brown sugar are fully fermentable, but fermented brown sugar does leave a slight odd molasses flavor behind while the corn sugar won't. I'd leave those out, unless you have a pressing need to use them, and consider cutting down the honey malt (if that's what it is) and crystal malt quite a lot.

If you want a higher FG, the easiest and most dependable fix is to mash higher. Mash at 156-158, and you should end at 1.018-1.020 for many recipes.

You guys are all awesome and correct!!! I'm sorry I left out the word malt when I referred to Honey. I did use honey MALT. I am going for a higher sweetness of 1.021 FG. I really like Lagunitas Brown Shugga but this is not meant to be a clone at all. Im using a great deal of hops at very specific intervals to make the brew very balanced. I just finished brewing today and hit all my numbers exactly as designed so far. Here we go with all the details. I like making really unique beers but understand the importance of being well crafted.

I cut out the corn sugar.

I use the Munich for mouth feel & the Carapils for head retention

My recipe:
5.5 Gal Batch
Yield in keg 5.0 Gal
All boil hops in hop bags

75min Boil
6.85 Gal Mash water@155F for 1hr
Sparge water 168F
Pre boil wort vol 7 Gal
Post boil SG reading 1.087@60F
Yeast: 2 smack packs 1056

Grain Bill:
12lbs Two Row Pale
2lbs Crystal 40
2lbs honey
1lb Munich
8oz Carapils
6oz Light Brown Sugar

Hops:
First wort hop 1oz Tomahawk 17%AA
75min 1.25 Chinook 15.5%AA
15min .5oz Citra

After flamout:
170F Hop stand for 30min
.5oz Willamette.
.5oz Citra
1oz Amarillo

Dry hop in keg: (In hop bag)
.5oz Citra
1.5oz Amarillo

Force Co2@30psi for 48hrs

Will give tasting notes in 33 days.

Man I love to Brew!!!

 

[nick6959]

I'm going to have to keep track of this thread. I was inspired by Madison River's Black Ghost Oatmeal Stout and I was kicking around a recipe with similar grains. Before reading below, Please take into consideration that I'm as green as they come and the mentality of an alchemist. I love to throw crap in a pot and see if can make GOLD!

I was playing with the idea of the following:
Black Malt - 8oz
Roasted Barley - 12oz
Carapils - 8oz
Munich 20 or 2 Row Malt - 12lbs
Caramel 80 - lbs
honey - 1lb