Yeast & Fermentation Question

[Jablestein]

So I've got about 4 brews under my belt now and I'm working towards my fifth. Each one has brought a new lesson to learn. I'm starting to get things figured out but yeast and fermentation is one are i'm still a little shaky on and I'd like to improve my knowledge for future batches.

My local homebrew store supplies White Labs liquid yeast for all of its kits. I believe they are pretty widely accepted as a quality yeast. I've been following these basic guidelines when using my yeast in my batches:
1. Let the yeast sit out to reach room temp
2. Let the wort chill to below 80 degrees before pitching
3. Mix/aerate the wort a little bit before pitching the yeast
4. Shake the yeast up in the bottle a little before cracking it open and pitching

Just curious if you guys agree with these basic steps or if there are other things I should or shouldn't be doing here.

One of the major reason i'm posting these questions is that I've noticed a few of my more recent brews don't seem very "active" when in primary fermentation. I always hear stories from people about how their primary is "going crazy" but that doesn't really seem to be the case for me, which has me a little worried that maybe things aren't fermenting properly. So I guess my other question is in regards to checking for signs of proper fermentation.

What's the best way to make sure things are fermenting properly in your batch without risking the batch or contamination? I generally have checked to see if there is any bubbling action in the air lock but I generally don't see much happening in there. Is there another good way to see if things are moving along properly? If for any reason I don't think things are fermenting properly is it possible to save the batch by adding additional yeast to the batch? Just wondering what I should be looking for and what my options are in case I notice things aren't going well.

Lastly are there any other general tips for properly using yeast? I've always been curious if there's a good reason to get a starter yeast going if I'm using liquid yeast. Also curious about the pros of salvaging yeast from my batch and how to properly store it for later use in another. Any tips or input here is greatly appreciated! Thanks again all!

 

[aberry]

Ill take a shot at a couple of your questions. Are you using a hydrometer to keep track of your fermentation? By measuring starting gravity and then hitting a stable final gravity for 2 or 3 days you know the yeast have done their job. Air lock activity is not a good sign of fermentation. Check out mrmalty.com for a yeast pitching calculator. That will help you a ton with your liquid yeast questions.

 

[Mongrel]

1. Let the yeast sit out to reach room temp
2. Let the wort chill to below 80 degrees before pitching
3. Mix/aerate the wort a little bit before pitching the yeast
4. Shake the yeast up in the bottle a little before cracking it open and pitching

OK, since you're using liquid yeast, 1. should be Make a starter. If you don't want to make a starter, you're better off using dry yeast. You'll start with more yeast, and you'll save money.
2. Go colder, a lot colder. (pay attention to your yeast's optimum temps and go for the lower end)
3. this is good
4. Now that you're using dry yeast, rehydrate before pitching. If you went the starter route, pull it out of the fridge, decant the starter beer, and pitch a lot of gorgeous healthy yeast

 

[Calder]

Lets see if I can help with some of this.

My local homebrew store supplies White Labs liquid yeast for all of its kits. I believe they are pretty widely accepted as a quality yeast. I've been following these basic guidelines when using my yeast in my batches:
1. Let the yeast sit out to reach room temp
2. Let the wort chill to below 80 degrees before pitching
3. Mix/aerate the wort a little bit before pitching the yeast
4. Shake the yeast up in the bottle a little before cracking it open and pitching

1. It is a good practice, but not one I would fret about. You can pitch straight from the fridge.
2. Let the wort chill to below 70 degrees for most yeasts. At higher temperatures yeast produce fusels (headaches) and esters (flavors including banana and clove) which you probably don't want, and a lot of these are produced early in the process while the yeast is multiplying. If you can't chill your wort down that low quickly, get it as low as you can and then place your fermenter in a swamp cooler with some ice water and leave it for a few hours to cool. Search swamp cooler (cheap plastic bucket).
3. Aerate the wort as much as you can. Then when you think you have done as much as you can, do it again. Unless you are using pure oxygen aeration, you cannot aerate too much. The yeast need oxygen to reproduce. Inadequate aeration can result in a stalled ferment. BUT .... do not aerate after fermentation has started (about 12 hours after pitching yeast)
4. A good practice. You might also want to rinse the tube out with some sanitized water too.

I've noticed a few of my more recent brews don't seem very "active" when in primary fermentation. I always hear stories from people about how their primary is "going crazy" but that doesn't really seem to be the case for me, which has me a little worried that maybe things aren't fermenting properly. So I guess my other question is in regards to checking for signs of proper fermentation.

A 'Crazy' fermentation is not necessarily a good thing, can mean you over-pitched, are fermenting hot, could be producing off flavors. But it does give you reassurance the yeast is healthy.

If you are brewing in a bucket, the lid seal may have a leak and reduce the activity seen in the airlock. If you see kraeusen on the top of the beer, everything is good. The only real test is to take an hydrometer reading, but wait until activity seems to have stopped and kraeusen has dropped before checking.

Another reason for not being "very active" could be that you are under-pitching. See comments on yeast further down.

What's the best way to make sure things are fermenting properly in your batch without risking the batch or contamination? I generally have checked to see if there is any bubbling action in the air lock but I generally don't see much happening in there. Is there another good way to see if things are moving along properly? If for any reason I don't think things are fermenting properly is it possible to save the batch by adding additional yeast to the batch? Just wondering what I should be looking for and what my options are in case I notice things aren't going well.

Leave it alone for the first couple of days. Provided you have followed decent sanitary processes, all will be fine even if the yeast doesn't work. After 2 days (some will say 3 days), check for kraeusen; either a covering over the wort/beer, or if it's done, a ring around the fermenter above the beer. If still in doubt, take a sample and check the gravity. Use a sanitized thief or turkey baster to take a sample (do not use a turkey baster that you also use for food). Drink the sample, do not return it.

Always keep a packet of dry yeast in the fridge (S-05, S-04, Notty, etc). If you find the wort is not fermenting, you can sprinkle a pack of dry yeast on top. I would recommend hydrating the yeast first as it will ensure more yeast survive the pitch, but it is not necessary.

Lastly are there any other general tips for properly using yeast? I've always been curious if there's a good reason to get a starter yeast going if I'm using liquid yeast. Also curious about the pros of salvaging yeast from my batch and how to properly store it for later use in another. Any tips or input here is greatly appreciated!

Learn how to make a starter and use one every time you use a new liquid yeast. If the yeast has not been stored correctly (too high or freezing temps), it could have a low viable yeast count, and obviously if it is old, it will have lost some yeast. Making a starter will ensure the yeast is viable, and provide more yeast. If you don't make a starter, you risk way under pitching, resulting is a slow ferment, stressed yeast, fusel alcohols, and off flavors.

White Labs says the tubes are good for worts up to about 1.050. I guess I am not qualified to argue with them, but I would say it is under-pitching; especially if a lot of the yeast is no longer viable.

For bigger beers you need a lot more yeast than you get in a vial, and the only ways to get the right count is to use multiple tubes, make big starters, or use part of the cake from a previous batch.

As I noted earlier aerate the wort as much as you possibly can.

Providing the beer is fine, the yeast cake is fine. I often pour the slurry into sanitized mason jars and store in the fridge. Use about a quarter of the cake for a new beer. If you are confident about your sanitation, you can straight pitch the slurry without a starter or 'washing'. Until you know what you are doing, I would not recommend re-using any slurry that has been stored for over a month; it can be done, but you really should wash the yeast and make a starter to ensure it is contamination free and still viable.

....... And did I mention ........ Aerate the wort as well as you can. This might be the single most important part of the process.

 

[Jablestein]

Thanks a lot for the responses everyone, you all rock!

To answer a few of your responses...

I haven't really used my hydrometer very much yet mainly because I'm still a little unsure how to properly read it (which is partially me being lazy). I definitely should use it more. I've taken some initial readings on a few beers and some final readings but I'm somewhat unsure how to compare the two. I'll definitely look into mrmalty in the time being.

So I guess I'm a little confused about using the starter then. I thought that liquid yeast was good enough that you didn't need to use a starter but dry yeast required it more. Is that not actually the case? Either way, it sounds like there's not really a downside to doing a yeast starter so maybe I should look into that.

Maybe things are going ok in the bucket after all. I always see a lip of foam along the top line of the bucket just above the beer (I assume this is the kraeusen). Thanks again all!

 

[Yooper]

So I guess I'm a little confused about using the starter then. I thought that liquid yeast was good enough that you didn't need to use a starter but dry yeast required it more. Is that not actually the case? Either way, it sounds like there's not really a downside to doing a yeast starter so maybe I should look into that.

Actually, the reverse is true. Not because of quality- liquid yeast is very good quality. But simply because there are more yeast cells in an 11 gram dry yeast package than in a vial of yeast.

Under optimum conditions (brand new yeast, perfect shipping conditions, perfect storage conditions), one vial of yeast would have 100 billion cells. For most beers over 1.040, you'd need at least 141 billion cells. So, while it might be barely adequate, it's not optimum. And if the yeast sat for a month or two, or the wort is 1.050, you need even MORE yeast cells. That's why you should always make a starter with liquid yeast. If the vial came with 200 billion cells, it would not be necessary for most beers. But it only comes with about 100 billion, max.

 

[helibrewer]

My general practice with liquid yeasts is to make a 1 Liter starter using a stir plate, GoFerm nutrient and pure O2. My lag phase is generally about 4-6 hours (5 gal batch).

I use dry yeast in my wine making and that is a rehydration process that also uses GoFerm and O2 but a much smaller volume of water at about 104F.

In both cases I add small portions of the wort/must over a 30-40 min period to the yeast to acclimate it to temp/pH/sugar etc.

Remember, don't use distilled water to rehydrate yeast, they are living organisms with semipermiable membranes that cannot handle the osmotic pressure difference created by distilled water.

 

[aberry]

Don't be intimidated to much by gravity readings. I was too my first few beers. I always said to myself, "what does it really matter, its going to be beer." Then I started reading on here about fermentation and how your gravity readings tell you everything you need to know on how your ferment went so I made it a quest to familarize myself with it. I played with water and sugar water to get comfortable with my hydrometer.

 

[luizpicelli]

Hi everybody,
My name is Luiz, a brazilian man beginer in homebrew. While I'm waiting my equipments to brew using all grain, I bought a Mr. Beer "whispering wheat - weizenbier". This is just a refil kit.

Today, I made like instructions And put to brew in a old freezer with temperature control.

My doubts:
- can I change the place after yeast activities to wait best flavor or Can I wait 14 days in the same keg?
- I didn't the priming sugar measure, and the instructions say to add 2 1/2 TSP white sugar to 1 liter bottle (+/- 25 gr per liter). Does it is correct?

Sorry for my bad english!

My best regards,
Luiz

 

[Kwade]

Luiz,

Start a new thread and I'm sure you'll get responses. If I understand your questions, yes, you can ferment in the same fermenter the whole time. No need to change to a secondary fermenter. Wait three weeks (or even four) if you can before bottling. As for your second question, the amount of white sugar or corn sugar you use will depend on the amount of beer you are bottling. I have never made a Mr. Beer kit, so I'm not sure about the instructions or how much beer it makes. I would just follow the instructions in the kit as closely as you can when it comes to bottling. As stated above, start a new thread if you have more questions or if I misunderstood you. Good luck Luiz!

 

[Jablestein]

Gotcha, well I guess I need to get a lot more comfortable with reading my hydrometer as well as making up yeast starters. Every brew is a new adventure and lesson I guess! Going to work on these next.

Thanks everyone for their support and answers.

 

[Jablestein]

One quick additional question I had is regarding the Final Gravity of my beer. From all of the videos I've watched it sounds like the Original Gravity is usually around 1.040 and the final Gravity should come to somewhere closer to 1.0 (close to water) once all the fermentables have been consumed by the yeast. Is this a fairly good guideline to use since I didn't actually take an original gravity reading?

For reference, I'm brewing a Porter and I used roughly 7 lbs of LME and 1 lb DME in the boil, which I assume means my Original Gravity was probably pretty high. Just curious what sort of reading I should expect from the brew.

It's been in Fermentation for almost 2 weeks now as well, so I was going to open it up and get a reading on it before racking it into secondary. My plan was to drop the hydrometer right into the brew (I currently don't have a wine thief or turkey baster that hasn't been used for food). As long as I sanitize the hydrometer properly I should be alright correct? (Just potentially riskier, but I suppose the same thing could be said of an un-sanitized wine thief or turkey baster).

If for some reason I find the reading to be pretty high (1.040 or higher) should I let it sit a bit longer and take another reading or potentially look into re-pitching yeast?

 

[Stauffbier]

(I currently don't have a wine thief or turkey baster that hasn't been used for food)QUOTE]

Don't just drop your hydrometer in your fermenter. It won't work that way. I use my auto-siphon as a thief. It works great. Just plug the end of the inner cane and pull it up (like a syringe). That way you can pull brew from the center of the liquid. Then put it in the container that the hydrometer came in to take a reading. Make sure you fill the container to the very top with your beer. Look up your recipes predicted gravity, because all beers are different..

 

[luizpicelli]

Hi Kwade,

Thankyou for your post ... I'm fermenting 2 gallons. In recipe say to use 2 1/2 tbs sugar to prime and bottling. Does it is much?

Sorry my bad englis...
Luiz

Luiz,

Start a new thread and I'm sure you'll get responses. If I understand your questions, yes, you can ferment in the same fermenter the whole time. No need to change to a secondary fermenter. Wait three weeks (or even four) if you can before bottling. As for your second question, the amount of white sugar or corn sugar you use will depend on the amount of beer you are bottling. I have never made a Mr. Beer kit, so I'm not sure about the instructions or how much beer it makes. I would just follow the instructions in the kit as closely as you can when it comes to bottling. As stated above, start a new thread if you have more questions or if I misunderstood you. Good luck Luiz!

 

[Jablestein]

Hi Kwade,

Thankyou for your post ... I'm fermenting 2 gallons. In recipe say to use 2 1/2 tbs sugar to prime and bottling. Does it is much?

Sorry my bad englis...
Luiz

As Kwade mentioned, you're probably going to get more responses with a new thread and based on your question you're probably best following the directions of the recipe for the kit. All that being said however, my personal experience has been brewing 5 gallon batches and I always use 5 ounces of priming sugar to carbonate (so a 1 ounce of sugar to 1 gallon of beer ratio). I believe 2 1/2 tbs is about 1 1/4 ounces of priming sugar. I'm not sure how it will come out with the 2 1/2 tbs but if the directions say use 2 1/2 tbs sugar for the 2 gallon batch then I'd probably just follow that.

As for the starter, I made one for my previous batch and I'm excited to see the results in my porter. It was REALLY easy to setup and there was a noticeable difference in the activity in my beer the first few days in Primary.

 

[Hang Glider]

jablestein -
if your final gravity on that porter is 1.040, that's a problem. Re-pitch yeast, you got a stalled fermentation.

However, you're much more likely to see 1.016 or 1.018 on a good porter. Lighter beers might get down to 1.008. Some heavier beers (barleywines) might finish as high as 1.024, but that number is likely to be perceived as a bit sweet.

It's a function of the efficiency of your yeast strain. It can only do so much before it poops out (pun intended).

 

[Stauffbier]

Some heavier beers (barleywines) might finish as high as 1.024, but that number is likely to be perceived as a bit sweet.

Sorry for jumping in, but......
Can you bottle a beer that finishes out sweet with a gravity that high? Is that a high risk of bottle bombs?

 

[Ogri]

- I didn't the priming sugar measure, and the instructions say to add 2 1/2 TSP white sugar to 1 liter bottle (+/- 25 gr per liter). Does it is correct?

Sorry for my bad english!

My best regards,
Luiz

Luiz,

Yes. 2 & 1/2 teaspoonfuls [tsp](not tablespoons [tbs]) of white, cane, sugar per 1 litre bottle is what the Mr. Beer's recommended quantity is. You can safely go a little less if you wanted, though, as I find most of my beers are maybe a little over-carbonated. Maybe just do two level teaspoons per litre for some of the bottles, compare different carbonation levels and note your preferences.

 

[bottlebomber]

Staufbier, you can bottle condition a sweet beer. The sugars that make it sweet are more complex, long chain sugars that the yeast weren't able to ferment. When bottled they still won't ferment the sugars, but will ferment the priming sugar. The only time they MIGHT bomb is, some folks will pitch fresh yeast when they bottle. If that yeast is able to ferment sugars that the other yeast could not, for example if you pitched EC-118 champagne yeast, it may ferment enough to bomb. It would be pretty unusual though, but not impossible.

 

[Jablestein]

Thanks again for all the feedback everyone. I did another Gravity reading yesterday and it's sitting at about 1.02 right now. It's been in secondary for 2 weeks now (another 2 in primary) and I'm planning on bottling it tomorrow unless you guys think it would be in my best interest to do another yeast pitch at this point. It is a vanilla porter and I think I'd be alright with a slightly sweeter porter, as long as it doesn't taste flat.

 

[RM-MN]

Assuming that your beer is from extract instead of all grain, your gravity of 1.020 is probably as low as you are going to get it. The grains that give a porter color and flavor contain unfermentable sugars and the extract does too. Many extract brewers will find that 1.020 is as low as they can get it to ferment.

Your sample will be sweeter than your carbonated bottle as your act of carbonating will add acid to the beer. I'm betting that you will really like it once it is carbonated and has a chance to mature. The porter that I brewed took about 2 months in the bottle for the flavors to mature and get really good. The earlier bottles that I drank were good but not nearly as good as the last ones. Try to be patient with this batch.

It takes longer for a dark beer to mature and taste good so if you like lighter color beer, this would be a good time to get one of those in the fermenter.

 

[Ogri]

^^^^^^

Great bit of advice.

 

[Stauffbier]

Assuming that your beer is from extract instead of all grain, your gravity of 1.020 is probably as low as you are going to get it. The grains that give a porter color and flavor contain unfermentable sugars and the extract does too. Many extract brewers will find that 1.020 is as low as they can get it to ferment.

Your sample will be sweeter than your carbonated bottle as your act of carbonating will add acid to the beer. I'm betting that you will really like it once it is carbonated and has a chance to mature. The porter that I brewed took about 2 months in the bottle for the flavors to mature and get really good. The earlier bottles that I drank were good but not nearly as good as the last ones. Try to be patient with this batch.

It takes longer for a dark beer to mature and taste good so if you like lighter color beer, this would be a good time to get one of those in the fermenter.

Reading this actually gives me hope, as I have an Oktoberfest that finished at 1.020 and a bit sweet.

 

[Jablestein]

Awesome to hear! I'm really excited about this one and I definitely plan on letting it sit at home while I'm traveling through the holidays. Funny enough though, I did a second batch about a week after the first, and I did a starter yeast. When I transferred it into secondary today, the reading was about 1.015, which was promising and a good showing of just how much having a starter can make a difference. Probably going to let this one sit in secondary for another 2-3 weeks while I travel over the holidays.