Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

[solavirtus]

Instead of US05, consider wyeast 3711. It attenuates like crazy and a lot of brewers, including me, really like the strain.

 

[mccabedoug]

Instead of US05, consider wyeast 3711. It attenuates like crazy and a lot of brewers, including me, really like the strain.

The reason I am considering US05 is that I have a Cream Ale that is done and I plan on harvesting the yeast. One pint will go in the fridge, one pint may be used to finish the 3724 Saison.

 

[g-star]

https://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

There's a big difference between pitching at 90F, and raising the temp to 90F after more than 50% attenuation has been achieved at lower, more reasonable temperatures.

Most off the undesirable off-flavors are created during the initial stages of fermentation, and pitching at that high of a temperature exacerbates these problems.

 

[mccabedoug]

i have been emailing with a tech at wyeast, and they wrote to me:

"The only trick we know so far to get 3724 to finish w/o stalling is running it at 90oF from the start."

Since this is my first saison in my 10+ yr brewing career, I decided to follow this approach for a first go. Perhaps on the next one I will start out low and ramp up slowly.

There's a big difference between pitching at 90F, and raising the temp to 90F after more than 50% attenuation has been achieved at lower, more reasonable temperatures.

Most off the undesirable off-flavors are created during the initial stages of fermentation, and pitching at that high of a temperature exacerbates these problems.

Yes, I know this is the approach generally recommended, especially with lagers. However, in the case of this yeast, with saisons, I've not read any evidence indicating this. But hey, I'm new to saisons so what do I know? Again, perhaps on my next batch, using a HUGE-a** amount of the 2nd gen of this yeast, I will follow your recommended approach.

 

[highgravitybacon]

I have pitched this yeast at 90F and fermented at 100F. It was outstanding.

So anyone who is concerned about "off flavors" needs to actually try it instead of theorizing. This isn't like some lager yeast or a clean American ale style. It's a much different beast.

 

[tagz]

I have pitched this yeast at 90F and fermented at 100F. It was outstanding.

So anyone who is concerned about "off flavors" needs to actually try it instead of theorizing. This isn't like some lager yeast or a clean American ale style. It's a much different beast.

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

 

[grizzly2378]

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

I just brewed with 3724 in June and the saison has been in bottles for a few weeks now. I've tried a few and it doesn't have any alcohol burn to it. Just saison funkiness (the good kind). Mine fermented at 90 for several weeks.


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[grizzly2378]

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

I just brewed with 3724 in June and the saison has been in bottles for a few weeks now. I've tried a few and it doesn't have any alcohol burn to it. Just saison funkiness (the good kind). More conditioning won't hurt, but it's pretty good now. Mine fermented at 90 for several weeks.


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[grizzly2378]

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

I just brewed with 3724 in June and the saison has been in bottles for a few weeks now. I've tried a few and it doesn't have any alcohol burn to it. Just saison funkiness (the good kind). More conditioning won't hurt, but it's pretty good now. Mine fermented at 90 for several weeks. Never stalled out, but it was a slow march to 1.004.


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[grizzly2378]

Son of a...

Don't know why that last reply posted three times. Sorry!


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[g-star]

I have pitched this yeast at 90F and fermented at 100F. It was outstanding.

So anyone who is concerned about "off flavors" needs to actually try it instead of theorizing. This isn't like some lager yeast or a clean American ale style. It's a much different beast.

How did it score in BJCP judged competitions?

Also, Wyeast says otherwise:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/3724-fusel-alcohol-dilemma-487773/index2.html#post6324710

 

[highgravitybacon]

How long did you let it condition for afterwards? Any hot alcohol flavors? I'd love to try it but I'm a little gun shy after wyeast said that a 90* ferment would produce fusels with 3724.

I don't condition [most] beers for any period of time [except lagers]. When they're done fermenting, I keg them and by the time they're force carbonated they're ready to drink.

Wyeast on their webpage an in email correspondence always says the same thing about the Belgian Saison. "Warm fermentation temperatures, at least 90°F (32°C), or the use of a secondary strain can accelerate attenuation.

 

[highgravitybacon]

How did it score in BJCP judged competitions?

Also, Wyeast says otherwise:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/3724-fusel-alcohol-dilemma-487773/index2.html#post6324710

First, a BJCP competition isn't a benchmark of quality nor does it establish anything except that two people agreed to a score within 5 points of each other. There's plenty of beers that score mid 20s one day, mid 30s the next and even in the 40s at times. I've watched 44 point beers score second in a category and a 37 point beer win Best of Show. So frankly, what two schmoes at a BJCP competition think of a beer is the least of my concerns. I've had nationally ranked judges confuse caramel malt with diacetyl. I had a famous BJCP judge call a beer "acetic" when it clearly wasn't. People make mistakes. They have bad judging days. They love a beer one day and hate it the next.

Second, again, we're talking about $15 worth of material. Try it yourself and see. It works. Countless other people have done it and it worked.

 

[g-star]

Not a benchmark, but almost always more reliable than one homebrewer's opinion of his/her own beer. If a beer scores well (or poorly) in aggregate over 2-3 competitions by certified judges, that is without a doubt a more objective measure of its merit.

 

[highgravitybacon]

Not a benchmark, but almost always more reliable than one homebrewer's opinion of his/her own beer. If a beer scores well (or poorly) in aggregate over 2-3 competitions by certified judges, that is without a doubt a more objective measure of its merit.

$8/entry + shipping at $10/comp is $54 for maybe decent feedback to see of pitching at 90f doesn't taste the way I want it? If I need to spend $54 to convince some random person that my beer tastes good, then I guess I'm going home with $54 in my pocket.

 

[g-star]

I guess this might be difficult for you to understand, but the investment in competitions is for objective feedback to help improve your brewing. As personal perception is too colored by subjective bias for fair assessment, this kind of feedback is invaluable.

However it seems in your case there's probably a lot you don't want to find out. Enjoy your homebrew.







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[mccabedoug]

The reason I am considering US05 is that I have a Cream Ale that is done and I plan on harvesting the yeast. One pint will go in the fridge, one pint may be used to finish the 3724 Saison.

Looks like no need to add any additional yeast(s). Got back from Labor Day weekend and the FG dropped to 1.004. Four weeks at 90oF to hit FG.

 

[amcclai7]

Ok, so I brewed a 1.053 OG sasion about 3 weeks ago and with the help of and warm water tub refilled once a day, it has gotten down to 1.012. i have read most of this thread and have seen people keg this beer anywhere from 1.012 to 1.002. I like the taste now. It is a touch sweet for my taste but certainly very good. For those of you that have worked with this yeast before would you go ahead and keg now or wait to see how far it drops? Also, I actually love hazy sasions and I want mine to drink that way but I don't want it to be a milkshake either. Should I cold crash for a few days or no?

 

[TAK]

Ok, so I brewed a 1.053 OG sasion about 3 weeks ago and with the help of and warm water tub refilled once a day, it has gotten down to 1.012. i have read most of this thread and have seen people keg this beer anywhere from 1.012 to 1.002. I like the taste now. It is a touch sweet for my taste but certainly very good. For those of you that have worked with this yeast before would you go ahead and keg now or wait to see how far it drops? Also, I actually love hazy sasions and I want mine to drink that way but I don't want it to be a milkshake either. Should I cold crash for a few days or no?

Based on what I saw with this yeast, it still needs to go further. Mine took several weeks after 1.012, at high temps, but got down to 1.004'ish.

 

[secondbase]

I used this yeast on a 1.049 saison.

8lbs Belgian Pilsner
1lb wheat
1lb sugar
bittered with 1/2oz CTZ, 2oz of strisselspalt at knockout
yeast nutrient

Mashed at 149º for 90 minutes. Pitched a big starter into 72º wort, a thin layer of krausen formed on the wort an hour after pitching. I kept it in a water bath with an aquarium heater. Held it at 72º for 48 hours, and the fermentation was wild. Ramped it up to the mid 80's over the next 72 hours and fermentation slowed down a bit. Ramped up to the low 90's and held it there for the duration. After 11 days the SG was 1.017 and it slowly chomped on those last points over the next three weeks. FG of 1.002 after a 5 week primary.

I never experienced a stall, and I think the key was a huge starter, yeast nutrient, ramping up the temperature, and patience. This yeast yields flavors and complexity unrivaled with any other commercial saison strain I've tried. Give this yeast a chance. Be patient, and nurture it. It's worth it.

 

[g-star]

After 11 days the SG was 1.017 and it slowly chomped on those last points over the next three weeks. FG of 1.002 after a 5 week primary.

I never experienced a stall, and I think the key was a huge starter, yeast nutrient, ramping up the temperature, and patience.

Uhhh...if it needed 5 weeks to reach FG, then you had a stall.

This strain should take 5-7 days to reach terminal gravity (< 1.005) with wort of modest density - if the fermentation is handled correctly.

 

[secondbase]

I took gravity readings every five days and each time it was lower than the last. The yeast never stopped doing their thing. It passed the dreaded 1.03 stall spot and kept chugging along. It was done after four weeks, but I gave it an extra week to see if it would drop another point.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

Uhhh...if it needed 5 weeks to reach FG, then you had a stall.

This strain should take 5-7 days to reach terminal gravity (< 1.005) with wort of modest density - if the fermentation is handled correctly.

If the beer tastes really nice, then the fermentation was handled correctly, whether or not it when quickly or slowly.

In the Farmhouse Ales book where the author writes quite a bit specifically about the Dupont strain, you'll note that Dupont ferments hot and fast because of the brewery needs (capacity), not because the beer tastes better that way.

Can you make Dupont ferment fast? you bet. Can it get "stuck"? yep. Does it really matter? Not really; it's a matter of time and personal taste.

 

[sweetcell]

This strain should take 5-7 days to reach terminal gravity (< 1.005) with wort of modest density - if the fermentation is handled correctly.

what is your approach to handling this strain correctly?

 

[beergolf]

Uhhh...if it needed 5 weeks to reach FG, then you had a stall.

This strain should take 5-7 days to reach terminal gravity (< 1.005) with wort of modest density - if the fermentation is handled correctly.

Not necessarily true. Some Belgian yeasts can take off fast and then just slow down and take along time to get the last few points of attenuation. This yeast can do that. The other yeast that is famous for that is 3787. These are both yeasts that cannot be rushed. Yeasts are living creatures that do not punch a time clock.

 

[m00ps]

I've used this yeast a number of times and I've never had a stall. I pitch in the mid 60s, let it free rise, then maybe 36 hrs after visible fermentation starts I crank it up 7 or 8 degrees per day to the 90s. At this point I'll add any syrups or additional sugars and leave it up there until it finishes. I take it back down at least 2 days before bottling

 

[beergolf]

I've used this yeast a number of times and I've never had a stall. I pitch in the mid 60s, let it free rise, then maybe 36 hrs after visible fermentation starts I crank it up 7 or 8 degrees per day to the 90s. At this point I'll add any syrups or additional sugars and leave it up there until it finishes. I take it back down at least 2 days before bottling

Same for me, but I don't crank it up that fast. I do 2 degrees in the morning and 2 more in the evening, until I hit 90. Always finishes low. I do give it plenty of time to be sure it is finished before bottling. I like my Saisons highly carbed, so I want to be 100% sure they are done before bottling. That way I can carb them how I like them without fears of them ticking off another few points in the bottle.

 

[biertourist]

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon to report that despite highly elevated and even upward fermentation temps I could not get the Belgian Saison strain to avoid the dreaded 1.030-1.035 lag.

I'll also report some fairly unpleasant phenolics from the high temp fermentation. (Read Jamil's advice on Saison fermentation temps in BCS; he has the same feedback.)

Denny Conn and Drew Beechum's "Experimental Homebrewing" states that the key to preventing the Dupont fermentation stall is pressure -do an open ferment with it. I haven't tried that but I'm considering it.


Personally my conspiracy theory is that this yeast strain pumps out so much acid early on (watch it with the pH meter) as a tactic to out compete other microorganisms that it shocks itself with rapid pH drop. But I'm willing to give an open ferment a try...



Also everyone on here should try Omega Yeast's new cross-breed "Saisonstein's Monster" which purports to be a cross breed of the Belgian and French saison strains with a focus on getting Dupont's flavor profile but without the dreaded fermentation stall.

I'll also point out that the differences in experiences with the "Dupont" strain could simply be because Wyeast and White Labs strains are different; this would certainly not be the first time that Wyeast and White Lab's versions of a yeast have drifted apart from each other...



Adam

 

[biertourist]

If the beer tastes really nice, then the fermentation was handled correctly, whether or not it when quickly or slowly.

In the Farmhouse Ales book where the author writes quite a bit specifically about the Dupont strain, you'll note that Dupont ferments hot and fast because of the brewery needs (capacity), not because the beer tastes better that way.

Can you make Dupont ferment fast? you bet. Can it get "stuck"? yep. Does it really matter? Not really; it's a matter of time and personal taste.

Yep. Jamil talks about his bad experiences with trying to ferment the Dupont strain at high temps and seems to feel that the idea that Dupont actually ferments their beer at extraordinarily high temps is a home brewing myth. (Pretty strong statement from a guy with more Ninkasi awards than anyone alive.)


Adam

 

[g-star]

what is your approach to handling this strain correctly?

I pitch 1M cells/ml/*Plato into well oxygenated wort at 68F. I hold at 68F for about 36hrs until krausen just begins to drop, and then add about 1lb of plain sugar (as a pre-boiled syryup) per 5 gallons directly to the fermentor, and then raise the temperature by 2F every 12 hours until it hits 80F. I hold it at 80F until final gravity, which is usually < 1.005 around the day 6-7 mark.

This approach has yet to fail me with the DuPont strain.

 

[m00ps]

Also everyone on here should try Omega Yeast's new cross-breed "Saisonstein's Monster" which purports to be a cross breed of the Belgian and French saison strains with a focus on getting Dupont's flavor profile but without the dreaded fermentation stall.
Adam

I recently tried it in a Rye Saison and loved the results.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/no-rye-more-reason-saison-507755/

 

[heckofagator]

I was going to go get some ingredients for a raspberry saison today but just came across this thread. I'm not sure if I want to go buy a heating pad, etc, just to get this stuff to ferment. Even though we're in FL, its still cool and without heating, I'm going to have some issues.

Is it better to maybe wait to brew this until summer, when I can stick it in a 90 degree garage and let it go?

I'll call the local brew house to see if they have the Omega yeast, but not sure if they will.

 

[sweetcell]

another option is to use a secondary yeast to finish up what Dupont is slow to do. 3711 or Belle Saison dry yeast are good options. wait for the dupont to slow down completely, then get the second yeast active in a liter of wort (DME is fine) for 24-36 hours before pitching.

 

[suprchunk]

Definitely rouse. I attach my co2 hose to a sanitized racking cane to push co2 to the bottom of the carboy. This is more effective than swirling and it pushes any o2 out of the carboy since you are bubbling co2 up from the bottom.

co2 rousing and high temp, 85-90 was what worked for me.

How's rousing with CO2 more effective? Some sort of facts to back that up please!?! I'm not sure how swirling isn't more effective as it moves the entire mass. Rousing with CO2 would only concentrate in one area, and not too much mass would be move. I would imagine moving the entire yeast cake instead of little sections would prove more effective. But since you keep repeating yourself I'm sure you have some hard facts and numbers to back it up.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

How's rousing with CO2 more effective? Some sort of facts to back that up please!?! I'm not sure how swirling isn't more effective as it moves the entire mass. Rousing with CO2 would only concentrate in one area, and not too much mass would be move. I would imagine moving the entire yeast cake instead of little sections would prove more effective. But since you keep repeating yourself I'm sure you have some hard facts and numbers to back it up.

We're using different methods to achieve the same thing; re-suspending the yeast into the beer.

I connect my co2 tank host to a racking cane and turn it on. I then the racking cane into the carboy all the way to the bottom and rotate the cane across the bottom of the carboy. The co2 gas breaks up the entire yeast cake and helps suspend the yeast in to the beer.

I read about the technique[1] used when dry-hopping IPAs for probrewers. They can't really swirl up a conical, so after adding pellets on day 1, on day 2 they would inject co2 into the conical to re-suspend the hop pellets to increase oil/aroma extraction. The technique is also documented in _Yeast_, by White and Zainasheff, page, 274:

Rouse the yeast. Either carefully blow carbon dioxide up through the bottom of the fermentation tank, or when using a smaller homebrew fermenter, you can tilt it on edge and swirl the beer.

Since I didn't do a test with swirl-vs-co2 rouse; I can't say one is better than the other; and I don't think I've indicated that it is; only that it's been very successful for me. It's super simple to hook up my racking cane to co2 and push to re-suspend then swirling carboys. My personal experience is documented here[2].

1. _IPA_ , by Mitch Steele, pg 261 in Avery Dugana Recipe
2. http://hoplauncher.woxford.com/2013/05/20/working-with-dupont-yeast-3724/

 

[suprchunk]

I'm aware of what it is and why it's used. Was just wondering why you kept repeating your CO2 method when we as homebrewers have it easy in that we can literally swirl the vessel. Much easier, at least in my case in my buckets - not my conical, to swirl it. Not having to worry about having a tube/hose stuck in my vessel the entire time. In my situation it would be somewhat difficult. Now if I were using my carboys and carboy cap with dip tube in it...

Not sure why you were quoting some passages that don't prove which is better?

 

[tagz]

No need to be antagonistic.

 

[ne0t0ky0]

I'm aware of what it is and why it's used. Was just wondering why you kept repeating your CO2 method when we as homebrewers have it easy in that we can literally swirl the vessel.

I think I'm in good company when I say most homebrewer's here post information on techniques that have worked well for them. I've had great success with using co2 to rouse my yeast. Positive confirmation from other homebrewers on which techniques work for them allows our members to pick and choose which method suits their situation best.

Much easier, at least in my case in my buckets - not my conical, to swirl it. Not having to worry about having a tube/hose stuck in my vessel the entire time. In my situation it would be somewhat difficult. Now if I were using my carboys and carboy cap with dip tube in it...

Sounds like swirling works best for you. Great! I've got carboys. I've got a racking cane that I leave in a bucket of StarSan and a spare co2 cylinder sitting next to my fridge where the carboy ferments. I just grab the cane, connect to my co2 hose turn on the gas and I'm rousing! Different situation, different method; I'm guessing the same result.

Not sure why you were quoting some passages that don't prove which is better?

Your previous reply had language that sounded as if you doubted whether co2 rousing would be effective.

Rousing with CO2 would only concentrate in one area, and not too much mass would be move.

I wasn't quoting sources to establish whether one method was better, but rather to confirm that the method was sound and in-use by professionals. If co2 rousing wasn't effective then I posit that it would not be in use, much less documented in brewing literature.

Many of our homebrewing techniques are adapted from professional brewing. Co2 rousing is one of them.

I think we've beaten the horse enough here. We're in violent agreement that the Dupont strain can get "stuck" and a good technique for getting fermentation going again is to "rouse the yeast" by whatever physical method works best for folks given their equipment.

Here's to the next batch of 3724!

 

[suprchunk]

Your previous reply had language that sounded as if you doubted whether co2 rousing would be effective.

I can see that now. Sorry. I was just wanting to know if you had data that proved CO2 rousing was more effective than simply swirling. As the language, at least how I was seeing it, seemed to imply that.

 

[thed163]

I am rehatchign an old thread. I used 3724 in an IPA because the temps were way too hot for decent ale yeast... this was 2 weeks ago.

It was 90 then. It's not dropping to 55 or less at night. I have my IPA w the 3724 in the closet (third floor, so a bit warmer) and wrapped in 3 winter coats.
Fermometer on fermenter reads somewhere around 76-78 usually. I figured that means, my brew is sitting around 81-88? which sounds good.

It's been going for 10 days now, and strong. I didn't realize how long of a commitment 3724 was. Any cause for concern? Should I buy a heat jacket asap? ...HALP!