Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison - they were right!

[LakeErieBrew]

An update on my Saison brewed on 8/16:

Now sitting pretty at 1.004. The hydro sample tastes magnificent. I may have to pull another sample in a minute... You know, just to make sure the gravity reading is correct.

 

[SavageSteve]

i decided to be patient and REALLY try to dry this one out. i kegged it last night at 1.002.

also, per the BJCP style guidelines, haziness is acceptable in this style, so unless you REALLY want it clear, don't worry about it, drink up

I'm sure if I was more patient, it might have gotten lower, but honestly, it tastes very good right now, and I think it's dry enough for style and my tastes.

Regarding the haze, I'm fine with some haziness, and no doubt it will be, but there's haziness and then there's haziness. I'm just trying to get the majority of the massive colony of yeast to drop out. It's clearing better now that I have it in my proper freezer instead of the kitchen refrigerator.

-Steve

 

[dcbeerboy]

I'm sure if I was more patient, it might have gotten lower, but honestly, it tastes very good right now, and I think it's dry enough for style and my tastes.

Regarding the haze, I'm fine with some haziness, and no doubt it will be, but there's haziness and then there's haziness. I'm just trying to get the majority of the massive colony of yeast to drop out. It's clearing better now that I have it in my proper freezer instead of the kitchen refrigerator.

-Steve

i've kegged mine the other night and it's been at 40psi for about 36 hours to carb. i gave it a good shake last night and poured a sample.... yeah, uber yeast. i'm going to check the carb tonight and then most likely drop in some gelatin to clear up a lot of that yeast. taste delicious though.

 

[SavageSteve]

Just tasted the finished beer a few minutes ago.

It is very nice.

Probably could have been a bit drier-- it's at the top end of the range of FG for the style-- but it tastes really good. Carbed it to about 3 volumes, which brings a nice creaminess to the table to compliment the beer's tart crispness.

I feel good.

And it only took seven short weeks.

-Steve

 

[magnj]

I have had the same experience, but I read this thread ahead of time. I figured after the krausen starts to drop I'll bring it upstairs and it will really get going. Of course this week was actually cold in NJ and it looks like it probably stalled though I haven't taken a reading yet.

 

[Cookiebaggs]

I won't be using this yeast again. Way too much of a PITA. 4 weeks and I'm at 1.015. I've been agitating it. It might be time to warm it up and see what happens.

 

[SavageSteve]

I won't be using this yeast again. Way too much of a PITA. 4 weeks and I'm at 1.015. I've been agitating it. It might be time to warm it up and see what happens.

What temperature do you have it at? I didn't see resumed activity in mine until I got it up to 85 deg. F. after the initial stall at 1.035.

-Steve

 

[Saccharomyces]

When I used this yeast it ripped through primary fermentation in 4 days from 1.063 to 1.014 which is 75% AA. I pitched at 72*F and fermented in my 95*F-ish garage. Then it was DONE. Flocc'd out, and wouldn't drop a point even after rousing. I added some amylase powder, about a teaspoon, and a sachet of montrachet yeast. Let it rot in the carboy for, oh, like three months, and then added some fresh montrachet at bottling time. It finished at 1.006 so I'm happy.

The bottles are carbed up so I'll probably try one this weekend to see how it turned out. I primed them for 3.9 volumes and put them in Belgian bottles with corks, they look sexy.... That'll be a subject for another thread.

 

[DrinksWellWithOthers]

After 4 and a half weeks I'm down to 1.003 with this yeast. I mashed at 148 and started at 1.046. I kept the temp at 68F for the first two days of fermentation and then let it free rise over the next few days.

Once it was in the mid 70's I added a heating pad and brought up the temp into the low 80's. I took a gravity reading and was at 1.020. Then I added 1 pound of corn sugar and this got the yeast rockin' again.

Over the next few weeks I routinely roused the yeast and kept the temp around 80-85F. I didn't really notice fermentation stalling but rather just working really slowly.

I was wondering what I was going to do when it came to bottling. There was no way I was going to rely on 3724 to carbonate my bottles so I think I might try some Montrachet.

 

[SavageSteve]

Then I added 1 pound of corn sugar and this got the yeast rockin' again.

I think I'll do this next time. I added the corn sugar during the boil, so I'm not sure if this affected the attenuation by influencing the yeast to ignore some of the normally fermentable wort sugars.

-Steve

 

[Cookiebaggs]

What temperature do you have it at? I didn't see resumed activity in mine until I got it up to 85 deg. F. after the initial stall at 1.035.

-Steve

It's been between 70-75º for the whole time. I agitated it again and added some heat to keep it at 85º. I might add some corn sugar as well if I don't see any more fermentation.

3711 for me next time!

 

[digr]

I have a Saison using 3724.
90 min mash @ 148'F ish - tested for complete conversion.
1 # Cane sugar added to dry it out.
90 min kettle boil.
OG 1.069
Pitched at 70'F
Warmed up to 80's over first couple days.
Kept about 88'F in warm water bath
7 days gravity was 1.045
15 days gravity was 1.042
Trying to decide if I should just sit and wait OR transfer to secondary to reduce autolysis, and/ or add a second yeast.

I made a similar saison under similar conditions but used WL565 & WL 568 and then added S-05 after 4 days. Went to 1.013 in 15 days, then eventually to 1.006 after 5 more weeks. I wanted to keep this one 100% 3724 (Dupont).

Current smell anst taste is great but sweet (...)

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks!

 

[DrinksWellWithOthers]

Trying to decide if I should just sit and wait OR transfer to secondary to reduce autolysis, and/ or add a second yeast.

Wait on it. I kept my saison with 3724 in primary for 7 weeks at 85F and it finished at 1.002. It takes a while but it'll get there.

 

[digr]

Thanks DrinksWellWithOthers.

I am keeping it at 90'F.
My plan is to just let it sit.
My only real concern is keeping it on the yeast cake at that hi temp for so long.
But it is still swirling a bit so I guess all is well.
I will suppress the urge to rack to secondary.
Last batch I had a botched racking and exposed the beer to too much 0xygen.
I'd prefer to avoid oxidized flavors as long as long as the yeasts don't go stale also.

 

[eimar]

Very interesting thread here, specially the fermenting temperature range suggested by Wyeast ( 70-95F, 21-35C )
I'm a Belgian ( living in Canada for more than 20 years ) and in Belgium any temperature above 30C is considered a heatwave. Belgian has a damp and cold climate. What's even more puzzling is that "Saison was brewed during the coldest months of the year for consumption during the late summer harvest for farm workers who were entitled to up to five liters throughout the workday during harvest season " ( Michael Jackson ).

Jacques

 

[digr]

So, updating the post. A week later, and fermentation kicked up to a wild pace.
There was subtle activity all week, but by Saturday it really kicked up, pushing lots of gas through the airlock and a torrent of activity in the carboy. I have not had a chance to take a gravity reading but I will once things settle down. This is basically the pattern I had hoped for.

Oh, and yes it does seem odd that the yeast would go so high. I have read that there are some theories that these yeasts resemble and behave more like wine yeasts (BLAM - Hieronymus, FHA P.175 - Markowski) and that Dupont ferments with this strain for 5-7 days at ~90'F to speed the process along to market. I am at the three week mark now, and will know more once I take a gravity reading...

 

[digr]

Update: as of 12-24-2009 the Saison Gravity I was talking about is down to 1.008, and still a small amount of activity. Slowing, and I am slowly stepping the temp down. Its at 88'F now. Taste from sample has an amazing smell but a very bitter taste. Hope this is from the yeast still active in suspension and not too many fusels.... Nice and dry, maybe a bit astringent. Again, lots of yeasts...

I plan to let this slow, cool, and rack to secondary and decide if it has enough hop aroma or if it could use a bit of dry hopping.

 

[Frinkey]

I brewed a Saison last week and pitched a bunch of Wyeast 3724 into it on Tuesday morning. Fermentation took off pretty quickly and was cranking along.

Thirty six hours later, the krauesen had fallen completely and it appeared that fermentation had stopped, or at least slowed down significantly. Specific gravity reading showed it was at 1.035.

From the Wyeast web site:

This strain is notorious for a rapid and vigorous start to fermentation, only to stick around 1.035 sg.​

Bingo!

I raised the temperature a few degrees every few days, but it wasn't until it hit ~80 deg. F. that fermentation really kicked in again. It is now ~83 in my laundry room with the electric heat turned on and the door closed.

The air conditioner is on upstairs, and I'm afraid a tornado will form somewhere in the stairwell between floors!

But seriously, everything that's been said about this yeast is true-- it definitely needs very warm temperatures to do its job. I'll probably max it out around 85, and hopefully it will attenuate very well.

-Steve

Aha! I read the same thing on Wyeast's website. I'm brewing a Stone Cali Belgique clone, and fermentation appeared to have stopped after a couple days. Temp was in the high 60s. I moved it to a warmer room for a few days, and nothing. Temp was about mid 70s. I just took a reading and the SG was at 1.050...what!?!?!
I'm glad to hear it needs even warmer temps. I'm going to keep it in my living room were the heat from the heater will keep it warm. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one having this problem.

 

[digr]

AS of 1/03 SG is 1.006.
Cooled down to lower 70's.
I am noticing an odd bitter taste that does not seem like hops.
Maybe fusels or yeast?
And a lot of the fruity smells and all the hop aroma has been blown off.
So maybe 90's was too much for that long a time.

I think I am going to dry hop.

I also don't know if I should open a new pkg of wyeast 3724 to bottle with or just use T-58?

I wanted to stay with 100%3724, but I have had good luck with T-58 before.

Anybody have any suggestions?

 

[deepsouth]

good info on this yeast. i've only used it one time and it was sooooo unfriendly, i vowed never to use it again. french saison yeast next for me perhaps.....

 

[tkone]

this yeast really isn't that unfriendly -- you just gotta give it the conditions that it likes -- someplace warm for them to really get going.

the flavor from this yeast is great -- it's the only one i'll use in my saisons

 

[Hermit]

this yeast really isn't that unfriendly -- you just gotta give it the conditions that it likes -- someplace warm for them to really get going.

the flavor from this yeast is great -- it's the only one i'll use in my saisons

New to brewing so I'll ask the obvious. Is this yeast worth the effort compared to the others available?

 

[deepsouth]

this yeast really isn't that unfriendly -- you just gotta give it the conditions that it likes -- someplace warm for them to really get going.

the flavor from this yeast is great -- it's the only one i'll use in my saisons

i totally get it. i gave it several weeks at 76 degrees to get down to 1.035 or 1.036. at the time it was wicked hot outside (temps in excess of 90 degrees) and i couldn't bring myself to kick up the thrermostat that high inside.

 

[kevmoron]

It looks like I'm in the same boat as others on this, with 3724...

I mashed 9 lbs of Castle Pilsner malt at 145 for 90 min (this one is a SMaSH), then 158 for 30. Added 1 pound of sucrose, and came out with an OG of 1.060.

Pitched a 1-liter starter at 85F, allowing the temperature to rise to 90. Fermentation took off like nothing I have ever seen.

I had a two-inch krausen within TWO HOURS of pitching.
4 hours, maximum Krausen at around 4 inches high.
9 hours, Krausen already going down a bit.
Went to bed, and 16 hours after pitching I see that the Krausen is almost totally gone and bubbles are coming once every 15 seconds (for the record, I have a thermowell and digital controller keeping everything at a rock solid, steady 90 F, so yes this is actually a decent indicator of CO2 evolution).
20 hours, and Krausen is totally gone. SG is at 1.040 (grrrr).

Looks like I'm in this for the long haul. I'm going to let the temp drop one degree each day to about 80 because I'm just a little freaked out about the prospect of up to six weeks on a yeast cake at 90 F.

 

[Montanaandy]

I took a gravity reading of the saison I brewed 2 weeks ago this past Fri. and it is stuck at 1.040 or so. This is the same reading that I took after 1 week.

I cannot up the temp in the water bath any higher than 81-82' that the saison has been at for the entire 2 weeks- I have it turned up as high as it will go.

I am wondering if I should wrap it in a couple of heating pads to get the temp higher and get the yeast going again. I have had good luck using heating pads to get yeasts that need temps in the 70's but I don't know how high I can go if I crank the heating pad(s).

Any suggestions?

Thanks, Montanaandy

 

[kevmoron]

It looks like I'm in the same boat as others on this, with 3724...

I mashed 9 lbs of Castle Pilsner malt at 145 for 90 min (this one is a SMaSH), then 158 for 30. Added 1 pound of sucrose, and came out with an OG of 1.060.

Pitched a 1-liter starter at 85F, allowing the temperature to rise to 90. Fermentation took off like nothing I have ever seen.

I had a two-inch krausen within TWO HOURS of pitching.
4 hours, maximum Krausen at around 4 inches high.
9 hours, Krausen already going down a bit.
Went to bed, and 16 hours after pitching I see that the Krausen is almost totally gone and bubbles are coming once every 15 seconds (for the record, I have a thermowell and digital controller keeping everything at a rock solid, steady 90 F, so yes this is actually a decent indicator of CO2 evolution).
20 hours, and Krausen is totally gone. SG is at 1.040 (grrrr).

Looks like I'm in this for the long haul. I'm going to let the temp drop one degree each day to about 80 because I'm just a little freaked out about the prospect of up to six weeks on a yeast cake at 90 F.

Just an FYI to follow up on the above - as I said the OG was 1.060 and it slowed sharply at 1.040. I let the thing go for 6 weeks and it finished at 1.002 (not a typo).

 

[passedpawn]

I took a gravity reading of the saison I brewed 2 weeks ago this past Fri. and it is stuck at 1.040 or so. This is the same reading that I took after 1 week.

I cannot up the temp in the water bath any higher than 81-82' that the saison has been at for the entire 2 weeks- I have it turned up as high as it will go.

I am wondering if I should wrap it in a couple of heating pads to get the temp higher and get the yeast going again. I have had good luck using heating pads to get yeasts that need temps in the 70's but I don't know how high I can go if I crank the heating pad(s).

Any suggestions?

Thanks, Montanaandy

Yea, you might consider dropping some 3711 if you can find some and let it finish the job.

 

[ChshreCat]

Or just leave it be and eventually it'll meander down to FG.

 

[Montanaandy]

Thanks guys. I think that I will monitor the activity in the BB and the temp for a spell and if it does not pick up I will hit it with some 3711 which I had hoped to use for another batch. Montanaandy

 

[artyboy]

I was just at a beer seminar tonight. The speaker was talking about saisons. He was talking about how some of his saisons ended up at over 90 degrees. What I gathered from the presentation was that when you do a "real" batch the thermal mass of the fermenting beer brings the temperature up naturally. It's harder to pull off with homebrew because there isn't enough mass in a 5 or 10 gallon fermenter. He also said that he likes to blend his yeasts to get his FG down to where they need to be. After trying some of his beers it became obvious that he knows what he's talking about.

 

[digr]

How are you heating the water bath?
I used small aquarium heaters.
I found in the winter I had to upgrade from a 50W to a 100W heater to keep the bath between 85-90'F.
You can even put two in as long as they both have semi-reliable thermostats.
Also, you really need to circulate the water to prevent hot spots.
I used a small submersible pump. worked like a charm.

However, it will likely still take 5-6 weeks. My last saison was at 85-90'F for 6 weeks but went from 1.069 to 1.006. However, it took a 2nd place in a local competition.

Someone else mentioned this, but adding a second yeast is an option.
If you can't find wy3711, you could try Safbrew / Fermentis T-58.
I've used that with 3724 to make same nice saisons.

Good luck.

 

[Montanaandy]

Digr - I assume that your question was directed at me/my post.

I am/was using a 200W aquarium heater in a 35 gal Rubbermaid container.
The highest I was able to get the water heated to was around 84'.
I did not have a pump in the waterbath but I had read conflicting advice about this (as to whether or not it made a difference) so chose not to use one.
I now have the Better Bottle wrapped in a heating blanket which is then wrapped in Reflextrix insulation. The stick on thermometer reads at the limit (84' if memory serves me correctly) and the fermentation has kicked in again.
It will be 3 weeks as of this Fri. so I know that I have a ways to go still. I was hoping to have dropped from 1.040-42 after 2 weeks but no such luck. Hopefully with the temp cranked back up the gravity will start to drop again.
I mail ordered a pack of 3711 and it is in the fridge. Looking forward to trying that in the next few weeks. Thanks, Montanaandy

 

[takahiro]

Hello
I have used the Wyeat 3724 three times in the past. Twice of these were the 1st generation (smack pack & starter) and they exhibited the typical "stall" behavior. In my most recent batch, I used the 2nd generation (washed 3724 which had gone through a complete fermentation). This one went down from 1051 to 1015 in 1 week.

It seems to me that the 2nd propagation definitely improved the yeast's ability to eat up the sugar more quickly. Also, this is briefly mentioned in the FHA.

Has anyone noticed this effect?

 

[Montanaandy]

Interesting that later washed generations of 3724 worked more quickly. I will keep that in mind if/when I decide whether it is worth washing the 3724 that I am using for another batch. Looking forward to trying 3711 and comparing the results to 3724. Montanaandy

 

[velcroboy]

Anybody have any advice about putting this in a secondary? Will I leave too much yeast behind for it to finish if I do? Will it generate some unwanted flavors if I leave it in the primary for too long.

It has been 2 weeks in the fermenter and is stuck at 1.030. Right now it is in the low 70's here, but it it supposed to reach 90 in about 3-4 days so I am hoping that will kick it back up.

 

[ChshreCat]

Leave it in primary until it finishes. You have no need to worry about autolysis unless you're planning on leaving it in primary until sometime in 2011, and even then it's a "maybe" depending on when it 2011 you plan on racking it.

 

[Montanaandy]

ChshreCat - once I hit terminal gravity should I transfer it to a secondary and allow it to age further or is it read to hit the keg once I hit terminal gravity. I thought that I read in Farmhouse Styles (or whatever it is called) that you transfer to a secondary for several weeks after you have hit terminal gravity.

I took (another) gravity reading and I am down to around 1.024 so I have dropped .018 since I put the heating pad around the Better Bottle along with some Reflextrix insulation. The BB is warm to the touch and the gravity is dropping although there is no activity in the airlock. Hopefully I will be down to terminal gravity after another week which will mark week 4. Patience, patience.

 

[ChshreCat]

That'd be all up to you. It might benefit from a little bulk aging before you keg and carb it, but then if you're kegging, it's still bulk aging if you don't drink it right away. Just remember that your terminal gravity might be lower than you expect, so even if it gets down where you think it should, give it a bit more time to make sure it's really done. My saison was good after about a month in fermenters and another month in the bottle, but it also aged VERY well. I still have a few bottles left from the batch I brewed last August and it's still fan-freakin'-tastic tasting.

I need it to warm up here soon so I can have another batch brewing when I drink the last bottle I have on hand so I don't cry while I'm drinking it. It'll be kind of like the end of Old Yeller... *pops open the bottle* I'm sorry boy... but I gotta do this *pours glass* *sniff* it's fer yer own good... *sniffle*sob*

 

[Montanaandy]

ChrsreCat - thanks for the tips.

Like the "Old Yeller" reference

 

[soontobepcv]

Throwing in the towel here - fairly certain that the gravity hasn't dropped much at all from 1.03 in the past two weeks, and that includes steady temps in the 80s and even a few in the 90-105 range! Going to make a starter of Wyeast 3787 (Trappist High Gravity) to finish 'er off and to start another batch with.