Wort loss in HERMS coil

[renrutle]

I am in the process of designing/building a single tier HERMS brew system. I got some my inspiration from this post by blackheart. See his diagrams for my basic setup.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/automated-herms-rebuild-216077/

My current questions center around how to cool the wort after boiling. My initial design work flow was to fill the HLT with ice water and recirculate the hot wort through the coil, whirlpooling in the BK. Once pitching temp is reached I then pump/gravity-feed the wort to the fermenter.

Based on my math the volume of the 50' HERMS coil and additional ~20' of transfer lines is ~0.8 gallons.

Questions I have:

1. Should I plan for this additional 0.8 gallon loss in my recipe (seems like a lot to lose ~14% of a 5.5 gal batch)
2. Should I attempt to drain the coil and hoses to capture this volume (seems like a lot of trouble and a sanitization issue)
3. Should I move the coil from the HLT to the BK and use it as an immersion chiller (easiest)
4. Is there something I am missing

Any insight to this process will be appreciated.

 

[EMPyre]

Why not include a CFC or plate chiller?

 

[30Bones]

I am doing #3 only because I have the 50' immersion chiller already and see no reason why it can't be used for double duty. If you are loosing almost a gallon, I would account for that

 

[LandoLincoln]

The HERMS coil may hold 0.8 gallons of wort full, but the question is, how much is it actually going to HOLD after you disconnect the top hose? Will it all run out? Will only a little bit be left over? Will ANY be left over?

I drain from my BK to my pump to my CFC chiller to my carboy.
Once the BK has run dry, I disconnect the hose from the pump to the chiller and raise that up above the chiller to drain the contents of that hose into the chiller, then I disconnect that hose.
Then I lift the chiller and drain the wort from the chiller and hose into the carboy.

When I go to clean my chiller, only a very small amount of wort is still in there (like, four ounces or so).

Experiment:

1) Carefully measure three gallons of room temp water and put it in your BK
2) Pump from your BK through your pump and hoses and HERMS coil and into a bucket until no more water can be sucked from the BK
3) Drain the lines as you would expect to drain them

Measure how much water you collected in the bucket. Difference between the volume of what you put in vs. what you got out is your overall BK deadspace / transfer loss. It probably won't be that much, but as long as you account for it in your brew process it's all good.

 

[renrutle]

Why not include a CFC or plate chiller?

I may eventually move to a chiller like this but I can't do so for quite a while.

I am doing #3 only because I have the 50' immersion chiller already

This is my fall back position.

I drain from my BK to my pump to my CFC chiller to my carboy.
Once the BK has run dry, I disconnect the hose from the pump to the chiller and raise that up above the chiller to drain the contents of that hose into the chiller, then I disconnect that hose.
Then I lift the chiller and drain the wort from the chiller and hose into the carboy.

When I go to clean my chiller, only a very small amount of wort is still in there (like, four ounces or so).

Experiment:

1) Carefully measure three gallons of room temp water and put it in your BK
2) Pump from your BK through your pump and hoses and HERMS coil and into a bucket until no more water can be sucked from the BK
3) Drain the lines as you would expect to drain them

Measure how much water you collected in the bucket. Difference between the volume of what you put in vs. what you got out is your overall BK deadspace / transfer loss. It probably won't be that much, but as long as you account for it in your brew process it's all good.

I like your draining procedure. I think I can modify it to match my equipment. I will also try your experiment to get a more accurate measure of the loss. I have only brewed with the setup once so far and have a ways to go before I have everything nailed down.

Thanks all for the input.

 

[steveoatley]

I am building a 2 vessel system

With the HERMS coil inside the Brew Kettle, it is a dual purpose Brew Kettle & HLT
Using the HLT to maintain Mash Tun temps with a pump - recirculating the wort

After Sparging
I then fill my Mash Tun with ice & water - pump that threw the HERMS coil in
the Brew Kettle at Flame out

I have been able to get to 68F in 15 minutes with very little water waste.

 

[theboringrunner]

Very on topic for me as I used my HERMS for the first time this weekend and was very interested to find the approx half gallon of loss that I wasn't expecting (which I should have expected). Going to try the water experiment this weekend.

Using the HERMS as a chiller worked great. Down to temp in <12 min. I froze used apple juice bottles before hand which helped a lot I think.

Shadow covered the hoses, ice covered the HERMS....

 

[kirbcheck]

My new set up is like this with the same 50' of chiller... During my first brew day I realized how much wort was to be lost. After cooling my wort to pitching temps I filled my HLT with water and used that to push the remaining wort through the coil.... I've since decided to cool my wort like Steveoatley does... By pushing Ice water through the coils from the mash tun

 

[dstar26t]

I use CO2 to chase the wort in my system which consists of a plate chiller and an immersed 50' coil.

 

[steveoatley]

I will clarify some of my process as well

I am working with a 1/2 inch 25 ft herms coil in my Brew Kettle - not 50ft
I pump the mash through that coil to maintain my Mash temp

When I mash out, I pump the remaining sparge water into the Mash Tun
- I pump that water through the herms coil - to clean it out - push out any wort in there.

So I am left with only water in the coil

During Boil - the herms coil will spurt out water - very hot water - as it is being turned into steam in there - if you have a valve on the ends - you must leave it open - pressure will build up

Clean out Mash tun - add 20lbs of ice cubes - no water yet

Then for chilling - when boil is done
1- run garden hose water through the HERMS coil - I get 5 gallons of really hot water into my bucket - add Star Ssan - clean
- temp dropped to 160F

2 - fill up Mash Tun with garden hose water - need to let ice sit in MT to Pre Chill the MT - about 6 gallons

3- pump recirculation ice water from MT into HERMS coil
- got to 60F in about 10 minutes

4 - you will have to stir the water & ice mix that is in the MT - the water will stratify by temp - you should stir the BK as well to help the chilling process

I only used 14 gallons of water to chill 6.5 gallons from 212 to 60
5 gallons of HOT water went into fermentation bucket
3 gallons of water in the form of 20 lbs of ice
6 gallons of water from the hose

Fill my MT with some PBW and everything gets cleaned in place

Steve
Sorry I don't have a picture of the whole process