I agree the fears are overblown, and at the same time, Brett is extremely distinctive in both flavor and attenuation so if there is a little that makes it into a clean batch over time it will become an obvious infection, versus say, an English ale that you made that gets infected with tiny bit of left over US-05.
WLP644 -Brett B Trois
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I agree the fears are overblown, and at the same time, Brett is extremely distinctive in both flavor and attenuation so if there is a little that makes it into a clean batch over time it will become an obvious infection, versus say, an English ale that you made that gets infected with tiny bit of left over US-05.
Brett Fears are overblown. But with new data it appears WLP644 is actually not Brett, hence why it doesn't finish as dry as brett or have other brett characteristics. But it is a great yeast.
http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com/2014/12/brett-trois-riddle-wrapped-in-mystery.html
http://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com/2014/12/brett-trois-riddle-wrapped-in-mystery.html
Chris White was recently interviewed on this podcast and discussed it: http://cheerscharlotte.com/episode-085-chris-white-white-labs/
BrewinHooligan
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Just bottled an ipa fermented with this on Sunday. It's been a while since I've bottled and due to dry hopping the bejeesus out of this one with whole leaf hops and siphon issues my volume was a little low for the amount of priming sugar used and I placed all the bottles in a Rubbermaid tub with lid to contain potential bottle bombs. Curiosity and paranoia got the best of me today so I took a peek in on them with a flashlight and they are starting to have pellicles form in the bottle. I tossed one in the fridge to try tomorrow to see what's going on flavor wise. Everything used in the process had a thorough starsan soak and my spigot and bottling wand are brand new so I don't suspect contamination. Anyone else have something similar happen with this yeast?
TastyAdventure
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I took 1 gal off my IPA and fermented with 100% Trios, and then 2.5 gal off of a 1.069 Scottish Ale...
So I can compare its performance to the other yeasts I used.
I won't be using it again in a 100% ferm.
The yeast puts off sharp alcohol notes ((one batch was kept at ~68, the other around 66, then bumped after 10 days).
It is obviously very cloudy, something I normally don't care about, but there is so much yeast left in suspension for SO long that it creates a very muddled flavor. The nice flavors that it does put off in no way compensate for what I mentioned above.
So I can compare its performance to the other yeasts I used.
I won't be using it again in a 100% ferm.
The yeast puts off sharp alcohol notes ((one batch was kept at ~68, the other around 66, then bumped after 10 days).
It is obviously very cloudy, something I normally don't care about, but there is so much yeast left in suspension for SO long that it creates a very muddled flavor. The nice flavors that it does put off in no way compensate for what I mentioned above.
chefchris
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Yup, I've used Trois several times and the last time I got a pellicle in the fermenter and in the bottle. It dropped pretty quick in the bottle.
BrewinHooligan
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Awesome, that's good to know. And yeah the yeast isn't very flocculant but with cold crashing and patience that is a non issue imo. I use this yeast quite a bit and ferment hot, like mid 70s and get great results at that temp, ymmv
is there a consensus on what's the best temp for Trois?
if the weather cooperates (big "if"), i'll be brewing this weekend and pitching Trois. i'm thinking of starting around 66, maybe ramping up to 70 when activity starts to die down.
if the weather cooperates (big "if"), i'll be brewing this weekend and pitching Trois. i'm thinking of starting around 66, maybe ramping up to 70 when activity starts to die down.
BrewinHooligan
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White labs lists 70-85f and I have gotten great results in that range.
bovineblitz
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Yup, I've had it form a pellicle. Apparently the difference between pellicle formation and a lack thereof is just expression of one gene. Most brewers' yeast has had selection against expression of pellicle formation, but sacch strains are all technically capable of doing it.
I've read the discussion on whether Trois is truly Brett or not and that it doesn't finish as "dry" as normal Brett strains. With that said I have a Wit that I brewed on 1/10 still in the secondary, at one point it had a ham like taste, this is mentioned in BJCP guidelines and is unwanted. I can say for sure it's unwanted 
Now that taste has subsided, pretty much nonexistent now, but it's pretty bland. In my opinion it's close to Blue Moon, barely any flavor with very very slight citrus in the background, but I wanted more.
After talking with the owner of LHBS he mentioned throwing some Trois in, but after researching I question whether it there's anything left for it to chew through. It's at 1.018 which is high, my mash temp got higher than i wanted, so do any of you think I would get any of the "fruity" flavors from Trois?
Now that taste has subsided, pretty much nonexistent now, but it's pretty bland. In my opinion it's close to Blue Moon, barely any flavor with very very slight citrus in the background, but I wanted more.After talking with the owner of LHBS he mentioned throwing some Trois in, but after researching I question whether it there's anything left for it to chew through. It's at 1.018 which is high, my mash temp got higher than i wanted, so do any of you think I would get any of the "fruity" flavors from Trois?
more on pellicle formation, and sacch's ability to create one: https://matthumbard.wordpress.com/2015/01/30/beer-microbiology-what-is-a-pellicle/
i wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Trois is a sacch, but not cerevisiae - there are a lot of other species of sacch out there.
i wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Trois is a sacch, but not cerevisiae - there are a lot of other species of sacch out there.
chefchris
Well-Known Member
I've read the discussion on whether Trois is truly Brett or not and that it doesn't finish as "dry" as normal Brett strains. With that said I have a Wit that I brewed on 1/10 still in the secondary, at one point it had a ham like taste, this is mentioned in BJCP guidelines and is unwanted. I can say for sure it's unwanted
After talking with the owner of LHBS he mentioned throwing some Trois in, but after researching I question whether it there's anything left for it to chew through. It's at 1.018 which is high, my mash temp got higher than i wanted, so do any of you think I would get any of the "fruity" flavors from Trois?
If you want fruity flavors try Brett C. Trois in secondary probably isn't going to do anything for you.
Barley_Bob
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I can't believe I only just found this thread.
I pitched this strain into an IIPA this morning, and I have high hopes. I did find out after I bought it that it's actually sacch, but the reviews for the strain are still good and I really just want positive results. I do hope it attenuates well... The one thing I didn't do is add sugar to thin the body.
Everything I've read outside this thread has said that a 72-78F fermentation is the way to go. I let it start at 73... Maybe I'll let it cool off a little. I had active fermentation in, I dunno, 6 or 8 hours, and I have vigorous fermentation after 10 hours. Which is awesome.
I pitched this strain into an IIPA this morning, and I have high hopes. I did find out after I bought it that it's actually sacch, but the reviews for the strain are still good and I really just want positive results. I do hope it attenuates well... The one thing I didn't do is add sugar to thin the body.
Everything I've read outside this thread has said that a 72-78F fermentation is the way to go. I let it start at 73... Maybe I'll let it cool off a little. I had active fermentation in, I dunno, 6 or 8 hours, and I have vigorous fermentation after 10 hours. Which is awesome.
BrewinHooligan
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I personally wouldn't cool it down, let that bugger run. My IPA started at 1.060 and got down to 1.015 with a lb of sugar added at the end of the boil, took only 3 days to fully ferment but I let it sit close to 3 weeks total since this yeast does not drop and clear quickly. This one definitely doesn't get as dry as other strains, but it is damn delicious in my opinion.
Barley_Bob
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I checked it this morning, and it's stuck at 70F. I'm adding some heat. There's plenty of fermentation left to go. As a side note, this fermentation certainly does not smell like the starters I made. This seems much more clean? Maybe it's the temperature difference.
I'm planning to let it go 3 weeks too. I have a lot of dryhopping to do, and I want to give it plenty of time to settle. I usually bottle in two weeks.
chefchris
Well-Known Member
In my experience Trois will ferment down to around 1.012-1.014 or so and sit there for a bit. If you give it a couple of weeks it will drop it down to at least 1.008.
What's your at gravity now?
Edit: Just saw that you brewed this yesterday so no need to check your gravity, thought you were saying it was stuck. When I brew with Trois I keep it at normal ale temps, usually around 68F. I get plenty of character from it at that temp but I honestly don't get a lot of tropical fruit from it. Maybe it's because of my fermentation temp or maybe because people usally throw an ass load of hops in with Trois and you can't tell where the yeast ends and the hops begin. I've been blending it with WLP566 Saison II in saisons and I'm digging it so far.
Barley_Bob
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To your first point, that's good news. I'm banking on that 85%+ attenuation White Labs lists to get the FG down to a reasonable level. Otherwise, I'm going to have a syrupy mess. I tend to hit high on attenuation with other yeast strains, and hopefully that proves to be the case here. A couple of posts scared me, though.
Right, temp was stuck, not fermentation. It averaged 71F for the first 24hrs, and I let it raise up to 78F today. That "very clean" aroma I reported gave way to something more exciting. So, we'll see. I'm pretty excited to have a 100% Brett B Trois IIPA in my glass (something I'm surely not going to find in any store), and it would be disappointing if it came out too clean.
You make a really good point about telling where the yeast ends and the hops begin, though. There really isn't a way to do it empirically, except maybe through a split batch, which still wouldn't be super compelling. Mike the Mad Fermentationist did a post (which I should link but won't) where he talked about how Brett can, at least theoretically, unlock hop oils that would otherwise be chemically imperceptible to us. It somehow breaks down the molecule. So, I don't know, but it seems we can at least say that Brett enhances hop and citrus character through one or more mechanisms. I'll let you know my opinion when I have my brew in 5 or 6 weeks. Hopefully, it's such a massive hop bomb that I just don't care.
As a side note, I never have any idea what my gravity is. But that's a conversation for the Confession Time thread.
Anyway, thanks for the input. I'm really glad I found this.
chefchris
Well-Known Member
Well, I hate to be the one to break this to you but Brett Trois isn't really Brett. It was recently found to be a sach. strain.
crusader1612
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WLP644 recommended temp range is higher than that. I ork in celsius, but I believe its 21-23 Deg C.
I've used it alot with great results, in particular saison style brews and rye work well with it. Along with pungent Kiwi hops.
If your concerned about the amount of haze/yeast in suspension, you can always gelatin.
In my experience with the haze, it does disappear in time, so patience is your friend. these brett beers change so much overtime, i hope you didn't throw it out?
TastyAdventure
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No I actually have several bottles designated for aging, marked from 6 months to 2 years
Has anyone used this strain for a barleywine/quad? I'm pretty sure I've been through the whole thread and haven't seen anything about higher abv styles.
I'm doing my first Trois IPA this week, but I just thought of a crazy idea for a barleywine or quad recipe, fermented with Trois and most likely another primary strain depending on if I were to go american or belgian, aged on rum-soaked oak cubes. Maybe I'm a little buzzed atm, but tropical fruitiness and some rum character sounds like it would work to me.
I'm doing my first Trois IPA this week, but I just thought of a crazy idea for a barleywine or quad recipe, fermented with Trois and most likely another primary strain depending on if I were to go american or belgian, aged on rum-soaked oak cubes. Maybe I'm a little buzzed atm, but tropical fruitiness and some rum character sounds like it would work to me.
crusader1612
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Barley_Bob
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I think that's a great idea. It's not going to stay fruity forever though. Trois ages to hay, barnyard, horse blanket, leather, etc, but to varying degrees. But I think that's part of the charm of the strain. You can get really different results over time.
Barley_Bob
Well-Known Member
I just dry hopped and pulled a sample. It's not as bitter as I would have liked, but it's not sweet either. It tastes like it's maybe 60 IBU instead of the 90 it is. That may very well not be because of the yeast though.
It has an insane tropical fruit aroma. Even before carbonating. It smells like straight up mango, pineapple, and guava. I'm bottling in 10 days, so I'll have final results in a month, but it seems really promising. It definitely seems not to have suffered at all for the high fermentation temp. I let it get all the way up to 78F for days 2 and 3 of primary, and I've held it ~75F since.
Also, it still has a ton of yeast in suspension. I'm doing a second dry hop when I cold crash, and then I'm betting it'll need some time to fully clear in the bottle. This seems to mirror what every one else has said.
It has an insane tropical fruit aroma. Even before carbonating. It smells like straight up mango, pineapple, and guava. I'm bottling in 10 days, so I'll have final results in a month, but it seems really promising. It definitely seems not to have suffered at all for the high fermentation temp. I let it get all the way up to 78F for days 2 and 3 of primary, and I've held it ~75F since.
Also, it still has a ton of yeast in suspension. I'm doing a second dry hop when I cold crash, and then I'm betting it'll need some time to fully clear in the bottle. This seems to mirror what every one else has said.
TastyAdventure
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I used this yeast in an IPA and then a strong scotch Ale. I boiled Dow the first 2.5 gal of runnings down to one qt and added to the rest of the boil. Super malty molasses flavor from those first runnings.
Anyways, the big malty rich flavor and the tropical fruit of this yeast combine to make a vomit like flavor. It is not a good combo. Fair warning.
Anyways, the big malty rich flavor and the tropical fruit of this yeast combine to make a vomit like flavor. It is not a good combo. Fair warning.
Barley_Bob
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Went to bottle my batch this morning, and I have, like, 15 caps. Such a downer. Hitting the LHBS tomorrow, though.
dinnerstick
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I recently used trois in a collab with a local nano, to make a c-hop double IPA, kind of middle of the road recipe other than trois, for a 9% beer. The only thing is they don't have the cooling to chill the conical to fridge temps. At home I always cold crash this yeast, and am very familiar with how long it takes to clear, but at room temp?? It's pretty slow so far, a couple weeks since the dry hop and hitting what I think is FG, and it's muuuurky! Oh well, no hurry. Yet.
in case you haven't already seen: WL declares Trois to be a sacch, conveniently releases "Trois Vrai" (aka Drei) at the same time. http://www.whitelabs.com/blog/wlp644-research-results
That takes some real gonads on the part of WL and I think respect is due!
On a less mature note;
Good job my culture is a Drie re-culture.
But,like somebody already said,if it does what you want it to do,a name is just a name
On a less mature note;
Good job my culture is a Drie re-culture.
But,like somebody already said,if it does what you want it to do,a name is just a name
eh, i'm not so sure about. how convenient that they waited just long enough to make the call, that they also had time to release "Trois Vrai". originally they said they didn't want to declare anything until the full sequence is complete ("we don't want to rush!"), and here they are making the call based on a partial ITS analysis (but with Trois Vrai ready to go...)
#lemons2lemonade
Coff
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
So what the heck is Vrai going to be like?? Was WLP644 always a mixture of sacc and brett? This is confusing. I have a vial of WLP644 that I was thinking about using to try and save a failed Gose (ended up dumping it), so now I think I am going to try a 100% Trois fermentation.
Coff
Well-Known Member
Not really sure what Vrai is going to be like, most of us think it could be similar to BSI's strain Brett Drie, which we all thought was the same as Trois originally so who knows. I will be trying it out either way.
But dont let this stop you from using Trois, its just a taxonomy issue and does not change the fact that Trois is an amazing strain. We have known about Troi being a strain of Sacchromyces and I have continued to use it in my hoppy beers.
http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/02/tasting-notes-not-brett-trois.html
But dont let this stop you from using Trois, its just a taxonomy issue and does not change the fact that Trois is an amazing strain. We have known about Troi being a strain of Sacchromyces and I have continued to use it in my hoppy beers.
http://www.alesoftheriverwards.com/2015/02/tasting-notes-not-brett-trois.html
Oh I was still planning on using it. Seems to be a toss up between a farmhouse or an IPA. Haven't decided which way to go with it yet, but seeing as it is Sacc and not a lot in the vial, probably need to plan out a recipe pretty soon!
MileHighBrewer
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Pic any sour from the larger Colorado breweries, majority are using bsi drei. That'll give you some ideas of flavor potential. I will say from personal experience, it seems drei can go to vinegar easier then most other brett for some reason
youreanimpulse
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I agree with Drie going vinegar easier. My starter tasted like apple cider vinegar. Tasty in two brews so far, though, sans oxygenation. Has a good funk to it with the fruit. Not sure how Trois is similar. Others with experience with both report marked differences.
Barley_Bob
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Finally cracked the first bottles of my IIPA. The aroma is fantastic. Mission accomplished. The taste is... different? I mashed fairly high and used quite a bit of rye to try to maintain body, and I succeeded there. Beyond that, it's definitely unusual. The first bottle was a mess, so let's skip that, but the second two are dry and earthy with some wood or cedar? Layer that with the huge tropical aroma, and I'm stumped. Anyone else have some experience to share?
