Wine Kit vs Commercial Wine

[georgeburgin]

Quick question - I realize it might not be a quick answer.

I have been making wine kits the last couple of years. To date, I have made 35 high quality kits (top of line WE, RJS, MM and Master Vintner release 2016 kits (all four). At the same time, I have been visiting wineries in California, Oregon and Washington. I have discovered a distinctive and consistent taste in the reds among the many boutique wineries I have visited. And, I have noticed a consistent and profound difference in the taste of the red wines I’m making from kits all made. There’s a massive difference in the red wines I’m making and the wine from a vineyard. However, whites seem to be spot on and just as good.

From your experience, is it possible to make red wine from a kit on par with that from a boutique commercial winery? Just the truth, please - I can handle it.

 

[jgmillr1]

I suppose this comes down to the style of wine you like along with a good dose of "in my opinions". WIth that in mind, in my opinion, a quality red wine needs to have skin contact to build the body and tannin structure. While some kit wines provide skins, I'm not convinced that replicates the process as if you'd just crushed/destemmed your own grapes. Some sources offer frozen must (Brehm) and I would tend to consider that to be the next best thing to getting your hands on grapes during harvest.

For white wines though, since the process of destemming/crushing/pressing the grapes to yield juice is the same whether it happens at the winery or a wine-juice supplier, then I find the differences boil down to the quality of the juice supplier and the winemaking process.

So, I feel you can indeed make an excellent quality white wine with a good quality kit or straight juice, but you really need to work with grapes/must to match the quality of commercial wineries.

 

[bernardsmith]

My take on an answer is slightly different. I am a country wine maker - That is someone who makes wines from fruits and flowers , not from grapes. But I suspect that the terroir of the grapes used and the quality of those grapes make all the difference. My guess is that kit manufacturers may be buying - what ? middle quality middle of the line grapes whereas the boutique wineries MAY be growing or buying grapes at much higher quality or at any rate different quality.
Your bottles cost - what? anywhere from about - $6.00 each (assuming 30 bottles at a cost of $180 for a kit). That's the equivalent of a $15- $20 commercial bottle, isn't it? What is the selling price of the bottles you are tasting?

 

[bmd2k1]

Quick question - I realize it might not be a quick answer.

I have been making wine kits the last couple of years. To date, I have made 35 high quality kits (top of line WE, RJS, MM and Master Vintner release 2016 kits (all four). At the same time, I have been visiting wineries in California, Oregon and Washington. I have discovered a distinctive and consistent taste in the reds among the many boutique wineries I have visited. And, I have noticed a consistent and profound difference in the taste of the red wines I’m making from kits all made. There’s a massive difference in the red wines I’m making and the wine from a vineyard. However, whites seem to be spot on and just as good.

From your experience, is it possible to make red wine from a kit on par with that from a boutique commercial winery? Just the truth, please - I can handle it.

...gonna be doing my 1st Cab kit...any best practices tips appreciated!

Cheers [emoji111]

 

[georgeburgin]

My take on an answer is slightly different. I am a country wine maker - That is someone who makes wines from fruits and flowers , not from grapes. But I suspect that the terroir of the grapes used and the quality of those grapes make all the difference. My guess is that kit manufacturers may be buying - what ? middle quality middle of the line grapes whereas the boutique wineries MAY be growing or buying grapes at much higher quality or at any rate different quality.
Your bottles cost - what? anywhere from about - $6.00 each (assuming 30 bottles at a cost of $180 for a kit). That's the equivalent of a $15- $20 commercial bottle, isn't it? What is the selling price of the bottles you are tasting?

You point to some interesting information. The average cost of the kit is $180. Since I never get 30 bottles (too much loss during racking) the cost per bottle is probably $7.00. The price of the wine I'm tasting at wineries is north of $40 and as much as $75 per bottle. One consistency among all is bulk aging in oak barrels. This week I got a private tour at a winery in central California. During the tour, I was allowed to barrel taste wine aging as late as 2010. However, wine tasted in the showroom (2014, 2015 and 2016) was all excellent. The key might be barrel aging...

 

[georgeburgin]

...gonna be doing my 1st Cab kit...any best practices tips appreciated!

Cheers [emoji111]

From what you've said, I assume not your first kit just your first Cab kit. In my experience, you'll get a better finished product if you double (at least) the timelines in the instructions. Don't rush it...

 

[georgeburgin]

I suppose this comes down to the style of wine you like along with a good dose of "in my opinions". WIth that in mind, in my opinion, a quality red wine needs to have skin contact to build the body and tannin structure. While some kit wines provide skins, I'm not convinced that replicates the process as if you'd just crushed/destemmed your own grapes. Some sources offer frozen must (Brehm) and I would tend to consider that to be the next best thing to getting your hands on grapes during harvest.

For white wines though, since the process of destemming/crushing/pressing the grapes to yield juice is the same whether it happens at the winery or a wine-juice supplier, then I find the differences boil down to the quality of the juice supplier and the winemaking process.

So, I feel you can indeed make an excellent quality white wine with a good quality kit or straight juice, but you really need to work with grapes/must to match the quality of commercial wineries.

jgmillr1, thanks for the info. Can you give more information related to your experience with frozen must?

 

[jgmillr1]

jgmillr1, thanks for the info. Can you give more information related to your experience with frozen must?

I have not used frozen must myself. (I grow my own grapes and source grapes from regional vineyards.) I've heard good things about Brehm but that is the only source I know of. So it probably would be worth a separate thread to inquire about frozen musts.

The key might be barrel aging...

This is certainly a major factor. Aging wine in oak barrels is far superior vs. glass/stainless. This is due to the micro-oxidation process that polymerizes tannin. Oak chips and such only add flavor, but do not influence the aging process. However, you still can't take a kit or juice wine and expect oak aging to bring it up to the quality level of a skin-fermented wine.

 

[ShareBrewing]

First let me say I’ve never made a wine from grape must, but I make country wines, mead, cider and beer.

If one is attempting to replicate barrel aging for wine, could you use some sort of thin plastic fermentor (ei. Better Bottle) along with oak cubes/spirals?

Thin plastic fermentors will have a slightly higher level of micro-oxidation, perhaps similar to how a barrel would “breathe”. Just my two cents.

:cheers

 

[jgmillr1]

You can certainly use a thin plastic container for aging purposes. Flex tank has a whole line of food-grade maturation tanks designed just for this purpose with the 15-gal models starting at $215. Or you could buy a hobby-sized oak 5-gal barrel for $95-$155 depending if you want American or French oak.