Will partial LODO brewing yield discernable results?

[mongoose33]

2 1/2 years of home brewing and I’m still learning a lot. The problem I see with trying to do anything LODO with a recirculating ebiab system is you still have pump cavitation and usually a spray of wort coming back to the top of the mash. I’m thinking about trying some of these methods by mashing into a cooler then running the wort back into my electric BK...

There's an approach where you put a mash return manifold nside a mash cap and recirculate right into the top of the mash--no splashing.

I'm not sure how cavitation will oxygenate wort--there's no air there, so no O2 to enter the wort.

Here's a pretty good explanation of that manifold:

http://www.********************/uncategorized/wort-recirculation-manifold/

 

[Big Monk]

2 1/2 years of home brewing and I’m still learning a lot. The problem I see with trying to do anything LODO with a recirculating ebiab system is you still have pump cavitation and usually a spray of wort coming back to the top of the mash. I’m thinking about trying some of these methods by mashing into a cooler then running the wort back into my electric BK...

A center inlet pump and throttling output prevents cavitation. Return under the wort line prevents splashing and oxidation.

 

[griffi]

A center inlet pump and throttling output prevents cavitation. Return under the wort line prevents splashing and oxidation.

Thank you and previous poster for the links - maybe I can do this after all

 

[mongoose33]

I realized that I had never added a post-script to this thread about the beer I brewed as referenced in the original post.

I have brewed several beers that I considered to be exceptional (and a few lately less so), but this Amber was, IMO, if not the best, it tied for the top spot.

I am NOT a big fan of ambers, but I'd made one for a throwdown in November at my LHBC, so knowing it was maltier, and I had a good idea how the last one tasted, this seemed a reasonable test of LODO brewing techniques, at least those I could implement.

But this Amber--I have several beers on tap, but this is the one that kept filling my glass.

Further--and this is why I am more....interested, perhaps, in testing the LODO approach--at a family gathering on Christmas Eve, virtually everyone was drinking this beer. Even the wine drinkers. They had a taste, liked it, had a glass, had a refill, then another.....

It was an unabashed hit. And note the timeline: I brewed it December 3rd. On December 24th, I couldn't keep people's glasses filled with it. That keg kicked last week. Fastest I've ever had a keg kick.

**********

So, if anyone has noticed how I have switched from skepticism and concern for costs in doing LODO to a more...accepting attitude, now you know why.

The jury is still out until I can reproduce this, and see similar improvement in other beers, but for now, color me very intrigued.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Would you mind sharing the recipe with us?

 

[mongoose33]

Would you mind sharing the recipe with us?

Not at all. It was a standard recipe from somewhere I altered to use Maris Otter instead of 2-row.:

This was a BIAB process.

Grain bill
9.5# Maris Otter
.5# Munich
.75# Crystal 40L
.25# Crystal 120L

Mash Temp 153.7 (recorded; 153-154)
pH at 15 minutes after dough-in 5.36
Water was 1 gallon of tap (fairly hard and alkaline), 6.25 gal RO, total 7.25 gal
5gr CACL2, 5gr MgSO4, 4ml Lactic Acid to strike.

Hops (Name, amount, time, Alpha/Beta,)
Horizon, .50 oz, 60 min, 11.5/6.6
Amarillo, .25 oz, 10 min, 7.0/5.6
Centennial .25 oz, 10 min, 9.3/3.8
Amarillo, .25 oz, 0 min, 7.0/5.6
Centennial .25 oz, 0 min, 9.3/3.8

Whirlfloc at 15 minutes

WLP001 Starter (1/8 tsp nutrient, oxygenated 30 seconds). Pitched active starter directly into wort, no decanting.

Ferment at 67 degrees, raise to 71 for 48 hours when krausen falls, then back to 67 for the remainder of the 2 weeks in the primary. At 2 weeks, keg.

OG 1.058, FG 1.015.

********************

I do starters a bit differently than most. I add a little yeast nutrient to them, as well as oxygenate the starter wort. I also try to time it so that I'm pitching at about 14 hours into the starter so that it's active at the time of pitching. I'll drop the wort temp to about 70 or so, and try to have the starter at close to the same temp. These are approximate; more than once my brew day timing has coincided with the time I wanted to pitch, so anywhere from about 14 to 18 hours is typical.

I pitch the entire 1-liter starter into the wort. I don't crash in a refrigerator, I don't decant. Then I'll set the fermenter in the ferm chamber and let it take the temp down to 67. The effect on OG is to drop it about a point.

********************

I hate the use of 1/2 ounce of each of three different hops, but it is what it is.

 

[Big Monk]

Not at all. It was a standard recipe from somewhere I altered to use Maris Otter instead of 2-row.:

This was a BIAB process.

Grain bill
9.5# Maris Otter
.5# Munich
.75# Crystal 40L
.25# Crystal 120L

Mash Temp 153.7 (recorded; 153-154)
pH at 15 minutes after dough-in 5.36
Water was 1 gallon of tap (fairly hard and alkaline), 6.25 gal RO, total 7.25 gal
5gr CACL2, 5gr MgSO4, 4ml Lactic Acid to strike.

Hops (Name, amount, time, Alpha/Beta,)
Horizon, .50 oz, 60 min, 11.5/6.6
Amarillo, .25 oz, 10 min, 7.0/5.6
Centennial .25 oz, 10 min, 9.3/3.8
Amarillo, .25 oz, 0 min, 7.0/5.6
Centennial .25 oz, 0 min, 9.3/3.8

Whirlfloc at 15 minutes

WLP001 Starter (1/8 tsp nutrient, oxygenated 30 seconds). Pitched active starter directly into wort, no decanting.

Ferment at 67 degrees, raise to 71 for 48 hours when krausen falls, then back to 67 for the remainder of the 2 weeks in the primary. At 2 weeks, keg.

OG 1.058, FG 1.015.

********************

I do starters a bit differently than most. I add a little yeast nutrient to them, as well as oxygenate the starter wort. I also try to time it so that I'm pitching at about 14 hours into the starter so that it's active at the time of pitching. I'll drop the wort temp to about 70 or so, and try to have the starter at close to the same temp. These are approximate; more than once my brew day timing has coincided with the time I wanted to pitch, so anywhere from about 14 to 18 hours is typical.

I pitch the entire 1-liter starter into the wort. I don't crash in a refrigerator, I don't decant. Then I'll set the fermenter in the ferm chamber and let it take the temp down to 67. The effect on OG is to drop it about a point.

********************

I hate the use of 1/2 ounce of each of three different hops, but it is what it is.

Do you use DME for the starter wort? If you are going the Low Oxygen route, I’d seriously reconsider pitching starter wort into your fermenter.

 

[mongoose33]

Do you use DME for the starter wort? If you are going the Low Oxygen route, I’d seriously reconsider pitching starter wort into your fermenter.

Yes, I do. Why would that be a problem? That last batch was tremendous.

 

[Big Monk]

Yes, I do. Why would that be a problem? That last batch was tremendous.

DME is essentially dried, oxidized wort. After going through the trouble of excluding Oxygen when making your wort, throwing 1 liter of the oxidized stuff in there seems at odds, no?

In the grand scheme of things it’s a small percentage of the total volume but I’d be hesitant to put anything, oxidized or not, into my wort if I wasn’t 100% sure how it was made.

As always, YMMV.

 

[mongoose33]

DME is essentially dried, oxidized wort. After going through the trouble of excluding Oxygen when making your wort, throwing 1 liter of the oxidized stuff in there seems at odds, no?

That depends on what effect it might likely have. I'm not dumping that in there for flavor reasons, I'm dumping it in as a vehicle by which active yeast can be admitted to the wort. It's certainly not being done for flavor reasons or as a flavor addition.

In the grand scheme of things it’s a small percentage of the total volume but I’d be hesitant to put anything, oxidized or not, into my wort if I wasn’t 100% sure how it was made.

As always, YMMV.

Yes it is, about 5 percent. Unless it triggers or contributes to further oxidation of the wort--and I don't see how that can happen as I just finished oxygenating it--the it would seem to me at worst to contribute lesser flavored wort. Thus it might diminish the flavors by...roughly 5 percent?

Contrast what I'm doing with dumping a decanted starter in there. The yeast will be inactive, and in my experience it'll be 12-24 hours before that wort gets going. Meanwhile, all that oxygen I've just admitted to the wort is doing what?

It seems to me there's a tradeoff here of getting active fermentation going ASAP, versus concern with a small proportion of oxidized DME. The only alternative would be to find a way to preserve non-oxidized wort as a starter. Seems pretty far down the list of things with which I should concern myself w/r/t LODO brewing practices.

 

[Big Monk]

That depends on what effect it might likely have. I'm not dumping that in there for flavor reasons, I'm dumping it in as a vehicle by which active yeast can be admitted to the wort. It's certainly not being done for flavor reasons or as a flavor addition.



Yes it is, about 5 percent. Unless it triggers or contributes to further oxidation of the wort--and I don't see how that can happen as I just finished oxygenating it--the it would seem to me at worst to contribute lesser flavored wort. Thus it might diminish the flavors by...roughly 5 percent?

Contrast what I'm doing with dumping a decanted starter in there. The yeast will be inactive, and in my experience it'll be 12-24 hours before that wort gets going. Meanwhile, all that oxygen I've just admitted to the wort is doing what?

It seems to me there's a tradeoff here of getting active fermentation going ASAP, versus concern with a small proportion of oxidized DME. The only alternative would be to find a way to preserve non-oxidized wort as a starter. Seems pretty far down the list of things with which I should concern myself w/r/t LODO brewing practices.

Many are just doing vitality starters with preboil wort the day of. That can go either way: you can put a puffed up activator pack into the wort or pitch a previously grown starter into it. You are just looking to wake them up at that point.

I agree that starting out it may be a low priority but it may be a habit you might want kick now rather than later.

 

[mongoose33]

Many are just doing vitality starters with preboil wort the day of. That can go either way: you can put a puffed up activator pack into the wort or pitch a previously grown starter into it. You are just looking to wake them up at that point.

I agree that starting out it may be a low priority but it may be a habit you might want kick now rather than later.

Here's where I'm struggling with this, help me figure it out.

On the LOB site, I asked why it was considered best practice to pitch the yeast before oxygenating, whereas I've always oxygenated before pitching. We're talking about maybe a 2-minute difference here as to when the yeast is pitched, and when oxygen is introduced. The answer was that the sooner you get yeast going the better, and even that 2-minute difference was worth "harvesting" in our processes.

It would appear that what I'm doing is orders of magnitude better than 2 minutes; that yeast is active when I pitch it, and it's going to town within just a few hours, whereas a decanted starter, well, it takes a lot longer to get going. Hours more.

So this is what has me confused right now: is it more advantageous to have the yeast going as FAST AS POSSIBLE, which was the advice on the LOB site, and what my process does, or is it more advantageous to avoid pitching a small percentage of oxidized wort into the much larger fermenter?

 

[Big Monk]

Here's where I'm struggling with this, help me figure it out.

On the LOB site, I asked why it was considered best practice to pitch the yeast before oxygenating, whereas I've always oxygenated before pitching. We're talking about maybe a 2-minute difference here as to when the yeast is pitched, and when oxygen is introduced. The answer was that the sooner you get yeast going the better, and even that 2-minute difference was worth "harvesting" in our processes.

It would appear that what I'm doing is orders of magnitude better than 2 minutes; that yeast is active when I pitch it, and it's going to town within just a few hours, whereas a decanted starter, well, it takes a lot longer to get going. Hours more.

So this is what has me confused right now: is it more advantageous to have the yeast going as FAST AS POSSIBLE, which was the advice on the LOB site, and what my process does, or is it more advantageous to avoid pitching a small percentage of oxidized wort into the much larger fermenter?

Just some housekeeping quick and then a proper response:

1.) Please don’t take anything I’m saying as a suggestion that you are doing something wrong. I’m beyond glad for anyone taking this leap.

2.) Everything I say has the caveat attached that I am a small batch brewer. Most of what I do is drastically different than my peers because of that. 1 liter of anything is 20% of my fermenter volume.

3.) We get many questions about the whole “pitch then O2” thing. Honestly, we just see it as best practice, so we do it. I’m an engineer and at work we advocate certain things as best practice. Some of it is more expensive to implement than others but that’s how we do it. In this case, it typically doesn’t “cost” anyone extra time or effort to pitch first so that’s what we advocate. No harm in doing it a little differently if your sensory analysis of your beers says it ain’t worth it.

On the topic of pitching the starter wort: for me it is definitely a flavor thing. Like I said, I am often putting 1.25 gallons into the fermenter, so 1l of starter wort is a big deal. With that said, there are guys who started with low oxygen less than a year ago who are now picking out nuances in their beers that they can’t believe. That includes guys who were dedicated “Shaken, not Stirred”, high Krausen pitchers before this. They can definitely taste a liter of starter wort in their product. So I was mostly just trying to put it on your radar. Do what you normally do that makes a good beer and gets you going and comfortable with the new process. Don’t change things like your starter method until you think it’s becoming detrimental. Then you’ll have a data point to troubleshoot.

The other thing is for us to be clear about active yeast. A puffed up smack pack is active. Taking a decanted starter out and letting warm up to room temp then pitching it into preboil wort is going to be active. Letting some slurry warm up while you brew is going to get them going. So you have options. Personally, I usually pitch either 1 or 2 packs depending on gravity. I let them puff up and either pitch directly or pitch them into preboil wort to get them going.

So frankly, this would be something down a little bit on the list. What I mainly wanted to do was get it on your radar so that as you advance and are maybe trying to diagnose an issue that’s related to pitching a volume of oxidized starter wort, that you’ll have a frame of reference.

Also, congratulations on the Amber. I hope this trend continues for you!

 

[Murphys_Law]

I'm starting to think BIAB is not very compatible w/ LODO brewing best practices....

I have an identical system as yours and am going to buy a 10G* round beverage cooler, add a ball valve, and use my cheap tan pump to move water/wort between the two. I'll heat my water in the Spike and pump it to my cooler (underletting the grain) for the mash. Once mash is complete I will pump it back into my Spike to boil. I already have a bag for the mash cooler, silicone hoses, pump and ball valve so I'm basically only buying a cooler.

I really don't want to spend even $50 more and have another piece of equipment to clean and store - I'm cheap and lazy, what can I say, but I am curious to see the benefits (help with LODO, won't have to lift a heavy bag, better mash temp control...?)

There is a long thread about the pump somewhere around here but mine is similar to this...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DWORE6E/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

*For anyone who does something similar (i.e. mash in the round cooler) would you recommend a 10G and do a full volume mash similar to a full mash in a 1 vessel BIAB system, or a 5G cooler and do a thicker mash? What I am thinking is treating my full volume of water in the Spike, and then pump over "X" amount into the cooler for my mash, and then bring that back over into my Spike to combine with the treated water.

 

[ba-brewer]

Sunday, I took the leap--started employing LODO techniques. I brewed an Amber which I could use to test efficiency of my new mill compared to my old Barley Crusher (dead on, luckily, thank you @Morrey).

I now have a mill that crushes at low speed (180-RPM using a 3-roller Monster Mill). I crushed just before doughing in. I boiled the strike water before dough in (cooled with my Jaded Hydra in about 70 seconds). I used a mash cap (5-gallon bucket lid).

It's a start. The wort tasted richer to me, don't know if that's confirmation bias, wishful thinking, or an actual improvement. Sure tasted good, though. It's in the fermenter with WLP001, going to town.

QUESTION: will doing only some of the LODO techniques yield discernable results, and the more of those techniques I use, the better will be the beer? Or do we need to go whole hog, the whole 9 yards, to benefit from LODO techniques?

**********

I've been working on the cold side to get O2 out of the equation, feeding CO2 back into fermenter at cold crash, transferring from fermenter to keg O2-free, transferring the beer into a keg that has been purged. I believe that has helped my beer quite a bit. Hoping that working on the hot side will help as well.

Did you use SMB? How long did you boil the water?​

 

[MSK_Chess]

Here's where I'm struggling with this, help me figure it out.

On the LOB site, I asked why it was considered best practice to pitch the yeast before oxygenating, whereas I've always oxygenated before pitching. We're talking about maybe a 2-minute difference here as to when the yeast is pitched, and when oxygen is introduced. The answer was that the sooner you get yeast going the better, and even that 2-minute difference was worth "harvesting" in our processes.

It would appear that what I'm doing is orders of magnitude better than 2 minutes; that yeast is active when I pitch it, and it's going to town within just a few hours, whereas a decanted starter, well, it takes a lot longer to get going. Hours more.

So this is what has me confused right now: is it more advantageous to have the yeast going as FAST AS POSSIBLE, which was the advice on the LOB site, and what my process does, or is it more advantageous to avoid pitching a small percentage of oxidized wort into the much larger fermenter?

I don't get it either, that why should it matter to pitch an oxidized starter into wort that has just been oxidized or is in the process of being oxidized? Surely because the yeast is super active it will eat all that oxygen anyway and more rapidly than a vitality stater or one that has been refrigerated and decanted? I actually do refrigerate and decant but I may just try this method that you use although this will probably be my last starter for some time because last beer I made i pre filtered the wort to remove all the hot/cold break prior to going into the fermenter and what you get is NO trub and just pure yeast, its amazing.

 

[mongoose33]

Did you use SMB? How long did you boil the water?​

Yes, I did--and I pre-boiled for 5 minutes (at least--maybe 6 or 7 ).

 

[mongoose33]

I don't get it either, that why should it matter to pitch an oxidized starter into wort that has just been oxidized or is in the process of being oxidized?

I would use the word oxygenated, that is, I'm oxygenating the wort just before I pitch the yeast.

Surely because the yeast is super active it will eat all that oxygen anyway and more rapidly than a vitality stater or one that has been refrigerated and decanted?

I would think so, too.

With some of this--btw, I've done...checking....4 more batches since the OP. I'm becoming more comfortable with the theory(ies) of the LODO approach. It seems to me that some of the recommendations, while they may be theoretically accurate, produce an improvement that is so tiny as to not be perceptible--and I know that I have repeatedly argued that great beers are likely the sum total of a lot of small process procedures that, together, produce great beer.

For instance, the recommendation is to pitch the yeast into the fermenter before oxygenating the wort. There is about a 2-minute difference between oxygenating before or after pitching. The reason I was given as to why this is "important" is that it's best-practice to get the yeast going ASAP, and pitching before oxygenating is 2-minutes faster.

I cannot believe that this matters at all. Yeah, theoretically, sooner is better, but 2 minutes? I believe that this overcomplicates the thinking about LODO brewing. It's like saying you should mash at 153 degrees, and 152.9 is not good enough--when nobody would ever be able to tell the difference.

I actually do refrigerate and decant but I may just try this method that you use although this will probably be my last starter for some time because last beer I made i pre filtered the wort to remove all the hot/cold break prior to going into the fermenter and what you get is NO trub and just pure yeast, its amazing.

I'm not quite following; why would you not do the starter? I think filtering is not related to doing a starter, so I'm not sure what you'd do instead. Just pitch a pack of liquid yeast directly into the fermenter?

 

[MSK_Chess]

I would use the word oxygenated, that is, I'm oxygenating the wort just before I pitch the yeast.



I would think so, too.

With some of this--btw, I've done...checking....4 more batches since the OP. I'm becoming more comfortable with the theory(ies) of the LODO approach. It seems to me that some of the recommendations, while they may be theoretically accurate, produce an improvement that is so tiny as to not be perceptible--and I know that I have repeatedly argued that great beers are likely the sum total of a lot of small process procedures that, together, produce great beer.

For instance, the recommendation is to pitch the yeast into the fermenter before oxygenating the wort. There is about a 2-minute difference between oxygenating before or after pitching. The reason I was given as to why this is "important" is that it's best-practice to get the yeast going ASAP, and pitching before oxygenating is 2-minutes faster.

I cannot believe that this matters at all. Yeah, theoretically, sooner is better, but 2 minutes? I believe that this overcomplicates the thinking about LODO brewing. It's like saying you should mash at 153 degrees, and 152.9 is not good enough--when nobody would ever be able to tell the difference.



I'm not quite following; why would you not do the starter? I think filtering is not related to doing a starter, so I'm not sure what you'd do instead. Just pitch a pack of liquid yeast directly into the fermenter?

I am not doing a starter because the yeast harvested after using pre filtered wort is so pure that it contains practically no trub whatsoever, its just like the yeast you get from a starter. I was amazed. Also I like the idea that Die Beerery postulated of using about 2.5M/cells/ml/^P which is about 0.5 liters of yeast slurry. I've had one or two bad experiences using slurry in the past but that was probably due to my ill treatment of the yeast and some trub that made its way into the new beer

 

[mongoose33]

I am not doing a starter because the yeast harvested after using pre filtered wort is so pure that it contains practically no trub whatsoever, its just like the yeast you get from a starter. I was amazed. Also I like the idea that Die Beerery postulated of using about 2.5M/cells/ml/^P which is about 0.5 liters of yeast slurry. I've had one or two bad experiences using slurry in the past but that was probably due to my ill treatment of the yeast and some trub that made its way into the new beer

OK, I seen now--you're repitching the yeast slurry. Got it.

How are you filtering the wort? I'm in the process of trying to do an excellent lauter so the grain bed acts as the filter. I don't have at the moment an easy way to recirculate without running the risk of oxidizing the wort, unless I get some sort of wand to put under the mash cap or something.

Last weekend I used a mash tun lined with a Wilserbag and capped with a foamboard mash cap. You can see in the pic below what I mean--just took a piece of foamboard, cut to size, added a handle, covered with foil and then with Saran Wrap (cling wrap), and floated it on top of the wort.

I'd need some way to create a recirculation manifold or some sort of way to return recirculating wort back to the top of the mash without compromising the mash cap.

*******

Which leads to this question: I'm wrapping that foamboard because I'm not sure it's food safe. I can wash it of course, but is there anything that might leach out of it if brought into direct contact w/ the wort? I don't know, so I'm wrapping it to isolate it from the wort. I could attach a recirculation manifold to the foam board pretty easily, but it would only work well if I can eliminate the wrapping.

I am SO CLOSE to this being right it's killing me, but every answer leads to another question--or two.

 

[MSK_Chess]

OK, I seen now--you're repitching the yeast slurry. Got it.

How are you filtering the wort? I'm in the process of trying to do an excellent lauter so the grain bed acts as the filter. I don't have at the moment an easy way to recirculate without running the risk of oxidizing the wort, unless I get some sort of wand to put under the mash cap or something.

Last weekend I used a mash tun lined with a Wilserbag and capped with a foamboard mash cap. You can see in the pic below what I mean--just took a piece of foamboard, cut to size, added a handle, covered with foil and then with Saran Wrap (cling wrap), and floated it on top of the wort.

I'd need some way to create a recirculation manifold or some sort of way to return recirculating wort back to the top of the mash without compromising the mash cap.

*******

Which leads to this question: I'm wrapping that foamboard because I'm not sure it's food safe. I can wash it of course, but is there anything that might leach out of it if brought into direct contact w/ the wort? I don't know, so I'm wrapping it to isolate it from the wort. I could attach a recirculation manifold to the foam board pretty easily, but it would only work well if I can eliminate the wrapping.

I am SO CLOSE to this being right it's killing me, but every answer leads to another question--or two.

View attachment 556337

I chilled it and then filtered it through a cannister filter just before pitching. Polystyrene i think is not very reactive thats why they use it for coffee and other hot drinks in vending machines. Its the struggle to find solutions thats half the battle and half the enjoyment. Once you recirculate you will get super clear mash going into the boil (I use a very cheap solar hot water pump and pump directly out through the false bottom and back into the mash below the surface) Like you i need to find some way of going through the cap, I thought of maybe halving it into and fitting it around the manifold but its not ideal.

 

[mongoose33]

I chilled it and then filtered it through a cannister filter just before pitching. Polystyrene i think is not very reactive thats why they use it for coffee and other hot drinks in vending machines. Its the struggle to find solutions thats half the battle and half the enjoyment. Once you recirculate you will get super clear mash going into the boil (I use a very cheap solar hot water pump and pump directly out through the false bottom and back into the mash below the surface) Like you i need to find some way of going through the cap, I thought of maybe halving it into and fitting it around the manifold but its not ideal.

Do you purge the canister filter and lines, or just "do it"? Of course, if you're using SMB that should help mitigate any O2 ingress from the process.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Do you purge the canister filter and lines, or just "do it"? Of course, if you're using SMB that should help mitigate any O2 ingress from the process.

yes cannister and lines were purged and it was pushed through with Co2