Widmer Her Clone

[JLeuck64]

Immersion wort chillers work purdy good! I built one and liked it during several brews. Soon after I bought a 10Gal boil kettle with a drain valve I realized that a CFC cooler like the one in this thread might work better...

and it does! Way better than the old immersion chiller! Don't have to stir constantly... clean up is so much easier... yadda yadda yadda... LOL

 

[jack181]

Alright, reporting back on my attempt of the first all grain brew for me and the clone of a widmer. . I have to say its real close in taste and I am happy with the color. Not sure if I hit my gravity numbers as I have nothing to test that yet. Its 14 days in the fermenter and ready to goto keg. I had a very healthy ferment . I did a starter for the yeast from a widmer . It blow the lid right off the bucket a few times. Here is a look at it before keg and I will post pics after its ready along with the recipe I used. Thanks dmarc and JLeuck for the tips and recipe help.

 

[JLeuck64]

I leaned a bottle of Widmer Hefe over in the fridge for a week or so... and the sediment gathered in one corner of the bottom like this.


On the evening of March 9th I made a starter then cooled it. I was shooting for a 1L starter but it ended up being more like 1.2L I carefully decanted off about half of that beer I had leaning over in the fridge previously. I swirled up the yeast/sediment in the bottom of the beer really good then poured it into my starter.


3 days later it looked like the starter was settling down so I poured off the starter into a 1qt mason jar and a 1pt mason jar and cold crashed both of them in the fridge. The next morning I had some very nice yeast cultures in the bottom of both mason jars!


Pretty pumped with these results! I was expecting to have to make one more starter to bump up the yeast for brew day, but it looked like I would have plenty to pitch in my batch and also enough to make a new starter down the road! I brewed my Hefe clone recipe on the 17th and pitched in the yeast cake out of the 1qt mason jar. Fermentation took off within 24hrs and has been chugging along quite nicely now. I really thought I left plenty of head space in my bucket for this one but it pushed into the airlock any way on or about day 3. Waiting patiently...

 

[dmarc85]

Alright, reporting back on my attempt of the first all grain brew for me and the clone of a widmer. . I have to say its real close in taste and I am happy with the color. Not sure if I hit my gravity numbers as I have nothing to test that yet. Its 14 days in the fermenter and ready to goto keg. I had a very healthy ferment . I did a starter for the yeast from a widmer . It blow the lid right off the bucket a few times. Here is a look at it before keg and I will post pics after its ready along with the recipe I used. Thanks dmarc and JLeuck for the tips and recipe help.

That looks pretty damn close! Its probably going to be one of the best Hefeweizens you've ever had Enjoy!

Send pics with foam

 

[dmarc85]

Alright, reporting back on my attempt of the first all grain brew for me and the clone of a widmer. . I have to say its real close in taste and I am happy with the color. Not sure if I hit my gravity numbers as I have nothing to test that yet. Its 14 days in the fermenter and ready to goto keg. I had a very healthy ferment . I did a starter for the yeast from a widmer . It blow the lid right off the bucket a few times. Here is a look at it before keg and I will post pics after its ready along with the recipe I used. Thanks dmarc and JLeuck for the tips and recipe help.

How is your brew tasting today? Photos??

 

[jack181]

The moment of truth! Here's a few pics. . Widmer is on the left and mine is on the right. . It tast almost the same!

 

[dmarc85]

Eureka! Great job Jack181. Ingenuity FTW!

 

[jack181]

How did yours come out JLeuck64

 

[JLeuck64]

Has only been in bottles 5 days... but it is starting to Carb up! My wife likes it and her opinion matters most on this recipe ( ; I think it will be a very close copy but would like to give it another week in bottles 1st. Stay tuned... pics to follow

 

[JLeuck64]

After 7 days in bottles this is my result!

Here's the recipe I developed using Brewtarget software:
Size = 5.5 gal; OG = 1.052; FG = 1.013; ABV = 5.1; IBU = 29.6; SRM = 5.9

All-Grain Ingredients
5.5 lbs Pale Malt (2-Row)
3.5 lbs White Wheat Malt
0.5 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt -40L
0.5 lbs Munich Malt - 10L

Hop Additions
0.25 oz Cascade FWH
0.25 oz Willamette FWH
0.50 oz Magnum 60 min
0.25 oz Cascade 15 min
0.25 oz Willamette 15 min

Yeast
Cultured from a bottle of Widmer Hefe (approx 1/4 to 1/3 cup grown from a starter)

Misc
Yeast Nutrient 10 min
Irish Moss 10 min

Instructions
I Mashed in with 4.375 gal of water trying to get the grain bed to 150F for 1 hour; Then I batch sparged with 3.5 gal of water trying to get the grain bed to about 165F; Boiled for 60 min, adding hops as indicated above; cool wort to the same temp I cultivated yeast; aerate and pitch yeast; ferment in the mid 60's

Notes
When I bought my ingredients I had to sub out C-30 for the C-40 cuz my supply store was out of C-40. I hit 151F on my mash temp, not bad considering I am still using a cooler! With my equipment I shoot for a 6.75 gal pre-boil volume and I always give the hot break an extra 15 min (so my boils go for 75 min total, but I do hop additions as per the traditional 60 min boil) I like to play around with the FWH additions (First Wort Hop) because they do add some bitterness as well as aroma as per Palmer's explanation. When crunching the numbers in Brewtarget it did change the IBU's depending on a FWH addition versus a Boil addition. The other thing I notice is that I can use less hops total with a FWH addition versus a traditional boil addition, in other words it seems to be a little more economical ( ; I ended up with a 5.25 gal net after boil @ 1.052 O.G.

This yeast strain is a MONSTER! It chewed through this batch in the primary for a couple of weeks. Pushed krausen through the air lock on several occasions. Final gravity was at 1.008, 5.7% ABV

My wife can't taste the difference between this clone and the store bought version so I would consider the recipe a success because her opinion matters most. If I had to nit pick this recipe I might back off on the wheat just a little bit... I was very happy with the way the hop schedule worked out. In a side by side tasting the citrusy notes are pretty CLOSE! dmarc85 is right about the yeast strain, it imparts a HUGE flavor impact on the final product and you should start there to attempt cloning anything. The ingredients, hops, mash and ferment temps can be worked out eventually... Heck it all adds up to VERY drinkable home brews along the way

Funny... what started off as an exercise in making a home brew for "My Lady" ended up being my brew house go to recipe #4! My new Fav ( ;

 

[jack181]

i dont know what took me so long to switch to all grain but sure glad i did! that looks like beer porn to me! looks good, myself i would have held off on the Irish Moss so i can have that cloudy look. heres what i used in my batch

5 gal batch:

6 lbs 2 row
3 lbs white wheat
6 oz 40l crystal
8 oz 10l crystal

hops:

.25 oz warrior 60 mins
1 oz cascade 15 min
.75 oz willamette 10 mins
(i had to ajust the hop time a bit with this newer batch cause differnt aa% on the hops. im shooting for 30 ibu)

.75 tsp yeast nutrient 10 mins (in boil)

yeast:
from a few bottles of widmer hef

single infusion:
sacch rest 152 F for 60 mins 3.90 gals of water
mash out 170 f for 10 mins 4 gals of water

ended up with 6.25 - 6.5 gal befor my 60 min boil and finished with 5 - 5.25 gal

 

[dmarc85]

Jack181, I'm excited to see the final product! My attemptes clone I plan to use a smaller amount of 40l caramel malt and lower temp single infusion mash (around 148) My last attempt was much to sweet and the color was closer to blue moon white. I'm shooting for that classic glowing yellow color and that crisp body that just begs for sunshine! I'll post photos and recipes after brewday.

 

[dmarc85]

148f

 

[jack181]

i posted pics on my brew already for that last brew.. but getting ready to brew up another one when i get my wheat in next week . like you said about cutting back on the 40l . i think i might do the same and also on my willamette and cascade hops i will add them both at 10 mins left in boil and still shoot for a 30 ibu... i see you want to mash at 148f, will a lower mash temp have an effect on the out come? and how so? ... im still new to all grain.

 

[JLeuck64]

Lower temps create simple sugars so the net effect is a drier finish. Yeast can consume the simple sugars and make alcohol easier so the ABV will go up.

I have been experimenting with another recipe (IPA) and have been mashing in the 154-155F range to create more complex sugar chains. Those complex sugars are tougher for the yeast to consume so the sweetness carries through to the finished product.

It's fun to mess around with over several brew days. A little temp change here or there during the mash can really be tasted in the finished product! ( ;

 

[dmarc85]

Jleuck: 100% agreed! A two degree different can have a huge impact on the flavor profile. I also suspect all that the 40l contributes a lot of sweetness to the final product; I was shocked at how much sweetness resided in that IPA that we brewed about two months ago, and that was only 20l.

The overly sweet flavor combined with the darker color of our homebrew version put against widmer's hef seriously makes me question the caramel malt bill for an accurate clone. I'm not really sure how to proceede though...widmer's recipe calls only for 40l, so maybe we just need to really scale it back. Thoughts?

 

[JLeuck64]

5 gal batch:

6 lbs 2 row
3 lbs white wheat
6 oz 40l crystal
8 oz 10l crystal

hops:

.25 oz warrior 60 mins
1 oz cascade 15 min
.75 oz willamette 10 mins
(i had to ajust the hop time a bit with this newer batch cause differnt aa% on the hops. im shooting for 30 ibu)

.75 tsp yeast nutrient 10 mins (in boil)

yeast:
from a few bottles of widmer hef

single infusion:
sacch rest 152 F for 60 mins 3.90 gals of water
mash out 170 f for 10 mins 4 gals of water

ended up with 6.25 - 6.5 gal befor my 60 min boil and finished with 5 - 5.25 gal

jack181 I plugged your recipe into Brewtarget just to check your bittering numbers, and it looks like the above recipe came in just over 23 IBU's.

Then I played around with the hop additions a little to push the IBU's up to 30. Just with a very simple split of your aroma hops into a first wort hop addition you could push the IBU's up to 31 and not change the total amounts of the hops used in your recipe.
For example:
Cascade 0.5 oz FWH
Willamete 0.25 oz FWH
Warrior 0.25 oz 60 min
Cascade 0.5 oz 15 min
Willamette 0.5 oz 10 min

Alternately, you could try the hop additions I used and end up with just a touch under 30 IBU's ( ;

Try the FWH additions, they work out pretty good and see if you agree the aroma is still there as well as picking up bittering. The total hops used will be reduced some too

 

[JLeuck64]

The overly sweet flavor combined with the darker color of our homebrew version put against widmer's hef seriously makes me question the caramel malt bill for an accurate clone. I'm not really sure how to proceede though...widmer's recipe calls only for 40l, so maybe we just need to really scale it back. Thoughts?

Even though I subbed out C30L for C40L in my recipe it still looks a wee bit darker in a side by side comparison. I seriously doubt my pallet is able to detect the difference between the 2 different grains, but the next time I brew again I will be able to use C40L. Perhaps you guys would be willing to sub out C30L in your recipes one of these times? IDK... me personally I am not too concerned about the color yet, it's really all about the hops! I think it's going to take some very subtle tweaking of things from here on out to dial in this clone. A couple ounce less C40L perhaps... mashing in at a lower temp would obviously help dry it out some! Nothing wrong with more ABV hmmm? LOL

 

[jack181]

alright , i did another run on this brew this weekend!

6 lbs 2-row
3 lbs white wheat
4 oz 40 l
6 oz 10 l

hops (30 ish ibu)

.38 oz warrior 60 mins (aa 16.5)
1 oz cascade 5 mins (aa 5.1)
1 oz willamette 5 mins (aa 5.1)

i did a sachh rest at 149 F
and a mash out at 168 F

we will see what happens, i cut back on the 40l and 10 l and also used a lower sachh rest! will report back!

 

[dmarc85]

alright , i did another run on this brew this weekend!

6 lbs 2-row
3 lbs white wheat
4 oz 40 l
6 oz 10 l

hops (30 ish ibu)

.38 oz warrior 60 mins (aa 16.5)
1 oz cascade 5 mins (aa 5.1)
1 oz willamette 5 mins (aa 5.1)

i did a sachh rest at 149 F
and a mash out at 168 F

we will see what happens, i cut back on the 40l and 10 l and also used a lower sachh rest! will report back!

I'm excited for this one. Sounds like a step in the right direction. I hope you nail it.

 

[jack181]

update ..... beer has been fermenting a week now.. took a taste tonight of it and its tasting good... its lighter in color and Spritzer like a widmer .. next brew i will try to find out what blend of hops in there Alchemy thay use for bittering and try that.. but over all its good!

 

[fimpster]

According to THIS thread, the Alchemy blend is Warrior, Millenium, and Horizon. I've also read somewhere that Widmer has changed their blend from time to time depending on availability and quality of hops for a given season.

Edit to add: THIS is a thread that talks about the changing blend from season to season.

 

[dmarc85]

Jack181, it sounds like you've got some good beer working! I'm 4 days into the primary fermentation on my latest attempt. It a 1/2bbl sized batch:

20# 2-row
15# white wheat
1# 40l crystal
1# 20l munich

(I went heavy on the base malt since I'm still dialing in my mill gap)

149F Single infusion for 90 mins with a fly sparge.

60 min boil:

2oz Cascade @ 60
4oz Hallertau @ 60
2oz Hallertau @ 30
1oz Hallertau @ 15
1oz Hallertau @ 5

1.050 OG, I'm using a cultured widmer hef strain. The ferm chamber is set at 59F and my beer has been right around 64F for the last few days.

View attachment 1430115526778.jpg

View attachment 1430115543789.jpg

 

[dmarc85]

I had a swig last nice and I was very pleased I am predicting that the final product is is still going to be ok the orangey side, but it does seem to be much drier than my last attempt; this will lend to a more drinkable beer, like Widmer's version.

The nose is currently very citrus and sweet and hop content is balanced and mild. NOTE: I did add gypsum to my mash and sparge water to help me better achieve a crisper finish.

Regardless of how close I get, the next couple months I will be enjoying great homebrew in the sunshine!

 

[dmarc85]

My latest attempt. Still needs aging but it's damn close.

View attachment 1431138642123.jpg

 

[jack181]

Looking good dmarc. Ill post mine soon . Got it setting in keg in a fridge in the garage case I got my keggerater full with rye brew right now...

 

[jack181]

alright , i did another run on this brew this weekend!

6 lbs 2-row
3 lbs white wheat
4 oz 40 l
6 oz 10 l

hops (30 ish ibu)

.38 oz warrior 60 mins (aa 16.5)
1 oz cascade 5 mins (aa 5.1)
1 oz willamette 5 mins (aa 5.1)

i did a sachh rest at 149 F
and a mash out at 168 F

we will see what happens, i cut back on the 40l and 10 l and also used a lower sachh rest! will report back!

alright report time.. this beer is tasting real good. i just tapped it . i dont think i will ever hit this clone spot on but i have to say this is close to it.. i think doing a lower sachh @ 149 help, along with cutting back on the 10 and 40 L ... im glad it came out good because i made another batch with the same process tonight before i tapped the keg.. i pitched on a yeast slurry i got from last batch. slurry has been sitting in my fridge for 2 weeks so i hope it takes off.. im sure it will!

 

[fimpster]

Looks delicious! I may have missed it, but what yeast was it from the last batch?

I will be brewing this within the next month using WLP036.

 

[jack181]

Looks delicious! I may have missed it, but what yeast was it from the last batch?

I will be brewing this within the next month using WLP036.

i used yeast from 2 widmer hef bottles along with a yeast starter (650 ml water to 1/2 cup of light dme boil for 10 mins then cool down and pitch your yeast from the widmer hef bottles) just be sure to keep everything sanitized when making the starter . oh i also used a lil bit of Wyeast Nutrient in my starter! i would suggest spending the 6.99 on what the wlp036 will cost you (unless you have it on hand) on a 6 pack of widmer hef if you can get your hands on it and drink the beer and get the yeast .. 2 birds with one stone! ... post back with pics when its ready !

 

[fimpster]

i used yeast from 2 widmer hef bottles along with a yeast starter (650 ml water to 1/2 cup of light dme boil for 10 mins then cool down and pitch your yeast from the widmer hef bottles) just be sure to keep everything sanitized when making the starter . oh i also used a lil bit of Wyeast Nutrient in my starter! i would suggest spending the 6.99 on what the wlp036 will cost you (unless you have it on hand) on a 6 pack of widmer hef if you can get your hands on it and drink the beer and get the yeast .. 2 birds with one stone! ... post back with pics when its ready !

I do have WLP036 on hand, and unfortunately Widmer doesn't distribute here, otherwise your plan would be golden.

 

[dmarc85]

alright report time.. this beer is tasting real good. i just tapped it . i dont think i will ever hit this clone spot on but i have to say this is close to it.. i think doing a lower sachh @ 149 help, along with cutting back on the 10 and 40 L ... im glad it came out good because i made another batch with the same process tonight before i tapped the keg.. i pitched on a yeast slurry i got from last batch. slurry has been sitting in my fridge for 2 weeks so i hope it takes off.. im sure it will!

That looks awesome! I agree that this is going to be a tricky recipe to nail down, BUT, I know I'll have gallons of great beer along the way. Prost!

 

[jack181]

That looks awesome! I agree that this is going to be a tricky recipe to nail down, BUT, I know I'll have gallons of great beer along the way. Prost!

i do have to agree with you dmarc85 , im getting gallons of great beer as well . i just kegged a 5 gal batch tonight and took a sample of it the tast is good i followed the last recipe i did last time and pitch yest from a older slurry . i let this one go longer in the fermenter (3 weeks) do to working alot of over time. i will post pics and feed back on the beer here in about 5 days or so, its sitting on carb time with my extra co2 tank . i need to finish the American IPA i got right now in keg!

 

[JLeuck64]

Man... I can't believe its been since March, the last time I made a batch of this recipe?! I am going to correct that today

Changing up the base malts and hop additions from my last attempt, post #50. Trying to match the percentage of grains so they are more in line with dmarc85's recipe. Also going to ditch the FWH additions to scale back on the bitterness some. Brewtarget's numbers seem to be off on the IBU's I've suspected.

5# Pale Malt
4# White Wheat Malt
4oz C-40L
4oz Munich Malt 10L

0.5oz Magnum @60min
0.5oz Cascade @15min
0.5oz Willamette @15min

Just started draining the wort after mashing in at 150 for the last hour ( ;

 

[JLeuck64]

Whelp... I wasn't too happy with this batch. Turned out a little soft on the bitterness and was just too dang sweet for my liking when compared to the store bought stuff. So will try another run at it this weekend and will post up my changes to my recipe.

 

[JLeuck64]

So here's my latest attempt at this clone:

5.5gal
O.G. 1.051
F.G. 1.013

5# Pale Malt (50%)
4.75# White Wheat Malt (48%)
2oz C-40L (1%)
2oz C-10L (1%)

0.625oz Magnum @60min
0.625oz Cascade @15min
0.625oz Willamette @15min

Mashed in at 149F this time.

Will be trying to correct a few things with this attempt. I scaled up the wheat a tad bit with the thought it will change the flavor more towards a store bought Hefe. When looking at Widmer's recipe they list wheat as the number 2 ingredient. I am not sure if that means the wheat contributes less to the overall recipe than the pale malt does but my assumption is coming from what I see on any food label. I decreased the C-40 and the C-10 in an attempt to reduce the sweetness I've been noticing and also to try and get the color dialed in. At only 2oz each they both are at 2% of the total grain bill now! I also increased the hop additions so the IBU's should be right at 30.

 

[JLeuck64]

Time for an update... not a very flattering pic I know, but without any back lighting you just don't get a true representation of color! Sucks living above the 45th parallel sometimes LOL. It's only been bottle conditioning for 2 weeks now.

Both my wife and I agree that the store bought bottle on the left has more bitterness... even though my brewing software said they should be the same! We both are tasting some sweetness still with the clone so I am thinking about a couple of things for the next batch. For sure I will mash in a few degrees lower again... maybe around 146 degrees F. I am also wondering if the recipe should be more heavy towards the wheat/malt ratio. Right now I am biased heavy on the malt versus wheat and am thinking about reversing that ratio so it is heavier on the wheat? I see a LOT of cloudiness in a store bought bottle when I pour it in a glass and I never get that same look with my home brews... Looks like the color of this clone has started to lighten a bit towards the original so I feel like I am on the right track there.

Looking forward to brewing this again! Getting so dang close! Even @dmarc85 would be proud ( ;