Who has made a starter with Roeselare?

[carboywonder]

Has anyone made a starter with Roeselare with good results?

 

[dcp27]

yes, but they were 5gallon ones...

what are you trying to gain in making a starter from Roe?

 

[Bearclaw215]

Its not recommended to be used with a starter since you'll be throwing off the % of each strain in it.

 

[carboywonder]

Let's say you have an old pack. Pitching it along with another Sacch strain and/or with dregs also throws off the balance. I'm just wondering what type of results could be expected from making a starter and only pitching that. I'm guessing it might not sour as fast as the Sacch will out compete the bugs in the starter?

 

[Bearclaw215]

That's a mess of variables on top of wondering how viable the original blend is, but that's besides the point.
I'd look up some threads on reusing the cake to get an idea of what you might expect.

 

[dcp27]

right, making a starter from Roe would slow it down even more, it already takes at least a year to sour as is. even if it is old, I'd just pitch it as is and maybe some dregs. if no activity after a few days, then id consider adding sacch

 

[Calder]

I'm guessing it might not sour as fast as the Sacch will out compete the bugs in the starter?

You got it. I prefer to use older packs, so the sacc works slower.

 

[505-Brewer]

right, making a starter from Roe would slow it down even more, it already takes at least a year to sour as is. even if it is old, I'd just pitch it as is and maybe some dregs. if no activity after a few days, then id consider adding sacch

What if the starter is anaerobic at higher temps. Can one increase the bug population relative to the sac (such as lacto)? Could it not work the other way round? Perhaps the bug count is too low initially for this to be viable. Maybe just pitch some lacto along with it then wake the sac up with O2 later?

 

[505-Brewer]

Deleted accidental double post.

 

[dcp27]

What if the starter is anaerobic at higher temps. Can one increase the bug population relative to the sac (such as lacto)? Could it not work the other way round? Perhaps the bug count is too low initially for this to be viable. Maybe just pitch some lacto along with it then wake the sac up with O2 later?

Sac also prefers higher temps, so that won't slow it down. Being devoid of oxygen would, but I'm not sure it would enough. Perhaps a non-smacked pack, with a lower pH & no oxygen starter might

 

[carboywonder]

Well I ended up making a 1L starter and pitched it into 1.058 wort. Took off in less than 12 hours. Also pitched dregs from Tart of Darkness. I'll let you all know how it's doing in about 6 months.

 

[Wahoo]

I think this concept of "throwing off the %" of organisms is a little overblown. Yes, it does happen, but all things being equal, I'm happy to pitch a healthy mixed culture. And IMO, I'm not sure the % of organisms in the initial smack pack is where I want them to be. My re-pitches of roselare make much better beers than my first pitch (whether I make a starter or not)

 

[carboywonder]

I agree Wahoo. There seem to be many opinions on how to best utilize sour blends. I'm sure the percentages in the blend only hold true if Roe is pitched without any other Sacch or bugs and under optimal conditions (healthy culture, correct pitch rate, temperature, etc) and yet people have told me under pitching is preferred or to pitch along with another Sacch strain. Still others don't even pitch Roe initially and let another Sacch strain do the work. All things considered, I decided I would rather pitch a healthy culture at the correct pitch rate. If it doesn't sour as quickly so be it. I can always troubleshoot down the road. I'll report back down the road.

 

[dcp27]

I agree Wahoo. There seem to be many opinions on how to best utilize sour blends. I'm sure the percentages in the blend only hold true if Roe is pitched without any other Sacch or bugs and under optimal conditions (healthy culture, correct pitch rate, temperature, etc) and yet people have told me under pitching is preferred or to pitch along with another Sacch strain. Still others don't even pitch Roe initially and let another Sacch strain do the work.

sure theres many ways to skin a cat, but aside from underpitching, those other options you mentioned are sure-fire ways to produce a less/slower sour beer. the more active the sacc, the less you get out of the lacto.

 

[Calder]

I think this concept of "throwing off the %" of organisms is a little overblown.

I fully agree. I think the only critical part of the mix is the low quantity of sacc, and if you make a starter, you make sacc dominant.

... Part of the idea of pitching without a starter is to allow the rest of the bugs a little time to build colonies before alcohol starts to be created. It will not sour in that time, but a days delay of the sacc working, might take a couple of months or more off the time line.

All the other parts of the mix have different and long timelines, that I really don't think there is any real science gong into their quantities.