Which style should I brew

[eight]

It's a bit of a complex question and there are a few factors to consider:

1. Water values: My last few brews had a harsh bitter aftertaste that I blame on the (presumably high) bicarbonate levels in the tap water that I use. After searching for solutions in my area, the only option I came up with is mineral water that has 170 ppm of chloride, but otherwise good mineral levels and low levels of bicarbonate.

What off-tastes should I expect from these chloride levels and how bad are they? Is there a style that compliments them?

I will probably mix the tap and mineral water to get something more reasonable.

Temperature: Summer is starting and the average temperature in my city is around 80F, which pretty high.

Personal taste: I feel it's time for a really hoppy beer with a strong hoppy taste and aroma... I also want to use saaz hops, if possible.

Considering all these factors, can you recommend a style or recipe that will work for me?

 

[grrickar]

Personally I would buy spring water from the store to brew with if your water has chlorine and chloramines in it. Chlorine can be dealt with using campden, but chloramines is another story.

If you are a beginner brewer water chemistry can be daunting. I'd start with spring water and try a few styles before starting to dive too deep into water profiles.

Maybe try a single malt/single hop APA or IPA?

 

[eight]

Personally I would buy spring water from the store to brew with if your water has chlorine and chloramines in it. Chlorine can be dealt with using campden, but chloramines is another story.

If you are a beginner brewer water chemistry can be daunting. I'd start with spring water and try a few styles before starting to dive too deep into water profiles.

Maybe try a single malt/single hop APA or IPA?

I was talking about spring (mineral) water. It has high levels of chloride (Cl-), not chloramines or chlorine. I don't see how using a single malt and hop will help anything.

 

[gometz]

I only use RO or distilled water and add in my own minerals. This gives you infinitely better control of your brewing liquor.

As for a recipe, a SMASH will help you get an idea of how ingredients work. I would suggest a pale 2-row/cascade APA. This will help you understand the basic building block for most ales (pale 2-row), and highlight the characteristics of one of the most popular hops (cascade). Go with a low IBU recipe (30-35 IBU).

Just an idea for 5 gallons all grain:
10 lb American Pale 2-row
2 oz cascade (7% AA)
0.5 oz at 60, 30, 15, and 5 should give you just at 35 IBU
Mash at 152*F
WLP001 California Ale @ 70*F for 1 week, then drop temperature to 60*F for 2 more weeks.
(You can even add in an ounce of cascade with 4-7 days to go for dry hopping).

For your water:
Start with RO water (most stores have filling stations that cost $0.29/gal), add:
5 g Gypsum (~1.2 tsp)
0.5 g Salt (non-iodized!!) (~0.1 tsp)
1 g Calcium Chloride (~0.2 tsp)

Since you are just starting out, just add those to the wort after you are done sparging.

 

[gometz]

Double post.

 

[Natdavis777]

I second RO water usage. The "spring" water at the stores still contain unknown amounts of minerals. Though these could be low, knowing what your water profile is drastically helps control of the final product. As for brewing salts, I only use gypsum or CaCl. These two contribute to the Ca, Cl, and So4. The malt contributes Mg. In rare instances do I ever have to use chalk.

As for a good summer beer, maybe try a mild bitter or wheat beer. Easily quaffable on a hot day, and Saaz can play into the style.

 

[eight]

Guys, thanks for trying to help, but please read the question.
I'm not from the US, and we don't have RO water in the stores here.
I'm also too poor to buy a RO filter for hundreds of $.

All I have available is tap water with ph of 8-8.5. Or spring water with these values:
Ca++ 80
Mg++ 16
SO4-- 18
Na+ 5
Cl- 170
pH 6.8

 

[TheHopfather]

Your spring water doesn't look bad, really high in chloride. Chloride in your water will accentuate the malt in a beer so with that profile I'd go with a malt forward style. I know that you said you want hoppy beer but your water is really geared towards malts. For a hoppy beer you'd want the Cl and the SO4 to be reversed.

Next you mention your ambient temps are going to be around 80F, that is going to be too warm for the vast majority of ale yeasts. Can you do any sort of temp control? Even a water bath with frozen bottles added / wet blanket on carboy? You'll need to figure something out to get those temps down into the mid 60's.

Saaz hops huh? Saaz is typically a Bohemian pilsner hop, low AA's with an earthy / spicy flavor to them, not something I'd normally associate with a typical hoppy beer. With your water profile and desire to use saaz I would recommend a Bock style beer. Only problem with a Bock is, again, your temp control. You could look up a Dead Guy Ale clone, it is a maibock but fermented with an ale yeast (still much lower than 80F). You can use saaz in that beer and it is malt forward but still has 40+ IBUs.

 

[chickypad]

You may get better help posting in the brew science forum where the water guys hang out. I do know enough to say that knowing the pH of the base water doesn't really help, nor does it necessarily correlate with the bicarbonate level (for example my tap water is very low in bicarbonate in the 20 range but per Ward labs the pH is over 9). Do you have the bicarbonate level for that mineral water, or do you have a water analysis on your tap water?

Also just to confirm, you are an all grain brewer, correct? If not then all this talk about pH is not really an issue and we would strictly be talking flavor contribution from the mineral levels (which Hopfather addressed above). I agree with the comment about fermentation temps, it' going to be near impossible to ferment much of anything cleanly with that ambient temp unless you do something for cooling.

 

[gometz]

Ahh, in that case, do a saison.
10 lb pilsner malt
Mash at 152
1 oz saaz at 60
1 oz saaz at 15
Pitch 3711 for 3 weeks at ambient
Bottle and prime

 

[TheHopfather]

I was going to go with a saison as well. If you can't control temps then a saison it is!

Just as a side note the bicarbonate in your tap water won't be causing the off taste in your beer. Think of bicarbonate as a buffer, high levels of it will cause your pH to resist dropping into the proper range. You want low levels of bicarbonate so that you are able to adjust your water pH to the 5.2 - 5.4 range. The off taste is caused by mashing with your water pH at too high a level. The main goal in treating your water is to ensure your mash pH is correct. A correct mash pH will make the flavor of your beer come alive.

 

[Yooper]

Guys, thanks for trying to help, but please read the question.
I'm not from the US, and we don't have RO water in the stores here.
I'm also too poor to buy a RO filter for hundreds of $.

All I have available is tap water with ph of 8-8.5. Or spring water with these values:
Ca++ 80
Mg++ 16
SO4-- 18
Na+ 5
Cl- 170
pH 6.8

Do you know the make up of your water? Or the bicarbonate level of this water?

The problem sounds simply like a high mash pH. In order to fix that, some acid can be used. But in order to do that, you need to know where you are starting. If you have a water profile for your own water, we can work with that.

Or, you can try something like preboiling your tap water, and then simply siphoning off of the precipitated bicarbonate on the bottom if the problem is 'only' a high bicarbonate level.

 

[eight]

Sorry for not stating it before; I'm an extract+specialty grain steeping guy.

Unfortunately I don't know the make up of my tap water. Maybe I'll be able to test it in the next couple of weeks. But for now I think it will be a good experiment to brew with the spring water which is surely very different to what I used so far.

Regarding the temps, I think that if I manage to buy the ingredients tomorrow, I will brew a Bock like TheHopfather suggested and otherwise a saison. The temps are probably going to be OK in the next couple of weeks:

 

[eight]

BTW, the reason I wanna use saaz is that I believe that it's responsible for much of the flavor of my favorite brew (belgian tripel)

 

[chickypad]

Sorry for not stating it before; I'm an extract+specialty grain steeping guy.

Well that solves a lot of things right there. The mash is already completed with the extract so all this talk of pH doesn't really apply. It's possible there could be high levels of some mineral causing off flavors, if it's harsh maybe high sulfate levels? I would think you could use that mineral water with no problem though, as Hopfather said it may in theory accentuate the malty flavors more with the higher chloride.

Realize that a bock uses lager yeast, so you'd want to be in the 10-13* C range. Probably better off using an ale yeast if you have no temp control. Even then something like a water bath to avoid big swings of temp would be a good idea.

 

[TheHopfather]

Dead Guy Ale uses Pacman yeast, it's an ale yeast that works well at lower temps. But yes, generally speaking bocks use lager yeast. Temp control is going to be your big issue going forward.

Chickypad is correct, pH doesn't really matter if you are using extract. I'd be curious to see your tap water profile, I'd go with the high sulfate level guess as well. Try spring water and see if that helps.

 

[eight]

I'll try to get the values for my tap water. But I really hope the PH is to blame for the harsh taste, otherwise I really don't know what to make of it.

 

[TheHopfather]

I've never brewed extract so I'm far from an expert with that process. As I understand it; with extract someone else has already done the mash for you, pH is normally only a major concern during the mash. Now "harsh" is a tough one to define and could be caused by a number of things. It could be chlorine in your tap water, or pitching in wort that is too hot, or a too low pitch rate, or fermentation temps, or...

It could also be like Chickypad said and your tap water is high in sulfates. The minerals in your water will still have an effect on taste outside of the mash. Sulfates accentuate hops while chlorides accentuate malts. Water high in sulfates will really bring out the perceived bitterness of the hops.

I think your best plan of action at this point is to change up your water and see if that makes a difference. Make sure your wort is cool enough before pitching your yeast and do your best to come up with a plan to control your fermentation temps (search for a swamp cooler on this forum). I'd say controlling fermentation temperature is the single most important step in making good beer.