Where to find kegs

[olllllo]

First. I don't think that anyone wiull recommend limiting to a 5 gal system simply because it will prevent you from mashing 5 gallon batches with big grain bills. (imperials, doubles, etc)

Quick links for discussion:

Assuming this is the one you speak of
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/WILLIAM_S_MASHING_SYSTEM_P191C83.cfm


compare with...
http://www.northernbrewer.com/allgrain.html

and these although all are on backorder (what's up with that?)
http://morebeer.com/browse.html?category_id=1114&keyword=&x=1&y=1

and
http://www.homebrewadventures.com/s...ROD&Store_Code=homebrew&Product_Code=SYS.MS.C

 

[FlyingHorse]

1. States determine deposit amounts
2. They would never sell beer.

1. is false. Keg deposits are set by the owners of the kegs... government-set deposits are related to recycling programs for glass bottles and aluminum cans.
2. is true, but some smaller breweries already have jacked up the deposit to individuals...theft is way up due to the skyrocketing price of stainless.

Good article here

 

[fa1321tx]

First. I don't think that anyone wiull recommend limiting to a 5 gal system simply because it will prevent you from mashing 5 gallon batches with big grain bills. (imperials, doubles, etc)

Quick links for discussion:

Assuming this is the one you speak of
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/WILLIAM_S_MASHING_SYSTEM_P191C83.cfm


compare with...
http://www.northernbrewer.com/allgrain.html

and these although all are on backorder (what's up with that?)
http://morebeer.com/browse.html?category_id=1114&keyword=&x=1&y=1

and
http://www.homebrewadventures.com/s...ROD&Store_Code=homebrew&Product_Code=SYS.MS.C

These are nice! I got a 5 gal gott cooler free from a friend ( I did see one at Wal-Mart today for $16) I bought a plastic valve & false bottom from my lhbs for around $30 I did go back later and get the fly sparger $25.
Currently I am using my old bottle bucket with a valve for my HLT. So I want to acquire a keg for my HLT because I tend to use around 10 gallons of water and the ss turkey fryer pot I currently use only heats up like 7 or 8 gal at once.
The 3 tier set ups are in all the books, magazines ect... So yes I dream about having the same rig that I see people like John Palmer using the fact is I have put enough money into the big breweries pockets before I wised up to good beer. So get your kegs by any means that you are comfortable with & cut them drill them and enjoy them!!!

 

[Pedro-]

1. is false. Keg deposits are set by the owners of the kegs... government-set deposits are related to recycling programs for glass bottles and aluminum cans.
2. is true, but some smaller breweries already have jacked up the deposit to individuals...theft is way up due to the skyrocketing price of stainless.

Good article here

*NOTE before attempting to read: this became a long post very quickly, but i looked at real figures and (what i think are) logical estimates.


1. I'll be the first to admit if I can honestly be proven wrong.

Section 445.571(b) in Michigan Legislature states:

'“Beverage container” means an airtight metal, glass, paper, or plastic container, or a container composed of a combination of these materials, which, at the time of sale, contains 1 gallon or less of a beverage.'

I thought I had read in this section that it included up to half barrel containers but I was obviously wrong.

But don't dismiss this as only longnecks and soda cans, it includes everything carbonated in the amount of 1 gallon or less. Yes that includes your growlers too, most brewpubs just don't tell you they collect the 10¢ deposit within the $10 refill.

Read up for Michigan Here or search for your own state's legislation on deposits (if there is one).

2. I can understand problems with scrappers trying to profit from the metal. I still don't believe that at maybe 15% of all homebrewers using between 1-3 kegs converted to SS HLT, MLT, and/or keggles actually turns into a major problem for the BMC. Seems like barking up the wrong tree.

Let's look at this objectively. There are a number of estimates on homebrewers in North America but they all seem to be around 1-2 million. So let's say 1.5 for now.

I don't think it's very conservative to say that 15% of homebrewers use a sanke for one reason or another (or just have one sitting around). That's 225,000 sankes. Say about 1/3 of those use 3. That's an additional 74,250 sankes to total 299,250. I can't find prices on new sankes, so since refurbs can be bought @ $100 I'll say $300 for new.

That's $89,775,000. Annually that might seem daunting, but that isn't. Maybe about 10% are accrued each year (at just under 30,000 kegs 'acquired' annually, I it's think a logical estimate) 29,925 Kegs @ $300/ea to total $8,977,500 annual loss.

Now to look at what kind of a hit that would be for BMC. Fiscal Year 2006 figures are as follows:

Anheuser-Busch Companies, Inc.: NET income $1,965.2M (Sale revenue $15,717.1M)
SABMiller plc: NET income $1,141.0M (Sale revenue $15,307.0M)
Molson Coors Brewing Company: NET income $361.0M (Sale revenue $5,845.0M)

Understandably a higher selling company would have more property lost due to product popularity so let's look at that figure. Of the BMC sales realm 42.6% goes to AB, 41.5% goes to SAB Miller, and 15.8% goes to Molson Coors. That would mean $3.8m for AB, $3.7m for SABmiller, and $1.4m for Molson Coors.

Now those still look a little harsh going against the net income, especially for the small amount Molson Coors nets. But this number is factored into the operating costs, so it doesn't reflect the above net numbers.

In the end the hit for these breweries would be:

AB: $3.8m against $13,751.8m operating costs (a 0.00028% shrink)
SAB Miller: $3.7m against $14166.0m operating (a 0.00026% shrink)
Molson Coors: $1.4m against $5,484m operating (a 0.00026% shrink)

WOW! I highly doubt they even notice the hiccup of MAYBE a penny falling on the floor as they whip out their overflowing billfold.

c'mon people, they probably spend more money on hops yearly, or better yet toilet paper or urinal cakes in their facilities than they have shrinkage of kegs. This doesn't even compare to what retailers deal with on employee/shoplifting shrinkage.

Play with the figures as you like. FY-06 figures can be found here for AB, SAB, Mol/Co.

Cheers!

EDIT: forgot to look at bike n brew's link above until after posting. Cut that figure in half since the article says $150 for a new keg. EVEN SMALLER dent for the BMC. No way you can convince me this is a terrible problem for these mega-breweries.

 

[FlyingHorse]

"No way you can convince me this is a terrible problem for these mega-breweries.

Not sure why you quoted my post as the genesis for this argument, since I wasn't trying to convince you of any such thing...all I said was states don't set keg deposits, and theft of kegs (from all sources, not just HB) is an issue for small breweries.

That said, keg theft (from all sources, not just HB) is a problem for all brewers. (Just google "Keg theft" and you'll see a ton of articles from a ton of sources.

If you take a keg, you're part of this problem. If you choose to justify it using relativistic morals, then that's your choice. I do the same when I take that extra pair of pants from my favorite clothing chain (I mean, they sell millions of those damn things) or when I skip out on a check at my favorite chain restaurant (what's one crappy $10 steak to them...they have 300 restaurants!).

 

[Bobby_M]

Not sure why you quoted my post as the genesis for this argument, since I wasn't trying to convince you of any such thing...all I said was states don't set keg deposits, and theft of kegs (from all sources, not just HB) is an issue for small breweries.

That said, keg theft (from all sources, not just HB) is a problem for all brewers. (Just google "Keg theft" and you'll see a ton of articles from a ton of sources.

If you take a keg, you're part of this problem. If you choose to justify it using relativistic morals, then that's your choice. I do the same when I take that extra pair of pants from my favorite clothing chain (I mean, they sell millions of those damn things) or when I skip out on a check at my favorite chain restaurant (what's one crappy $10 steak to them...they have 300 restaurants!).

Exactly. He went through a huge exercise to justify that it's a victimless crime. I don't buy it. Just because losses are already factored in doesn't mean anyone should be free to continue contributing to the problem. It's like saying that any business that is annually turning a profit should turn a blind eye to theft because who the F are they to complain when they're seeing profit? I would agree that home brewers specifically are probably a smaller percentage of the problem but it doesn't make it anymore right than the bums stealing kegs from the back of a pub for scrap sale.

 

[Pedro-]

Not sure why you quoted my post as the genesis for this argument, since I wasn't trying to convince you of any such thing..

It wasn't an attack, I was just responding and posting. I guess I could have separated it a little better so you didn't think I was responding everything directly to you.

Ethically this is an easy question. Yes, you kept the keg so you stole it. You acquired property without proper compensation.

That basically looked at the claim I have heard that homebrewers are driving SS prices up and undermining the beer industry since they kept a keg. I don't think thats the main problem but no it still doesn't make it "right".

BTW everything googled on keg theft turns up problems with scrapping the metal, kegs being stolen from behind bars, breweries, backyard barbeques and storage facilites, and there I can definitely see a problem. If ss prices were what they were 30 years ago I doubt that would even be an argument.

Keeping a keg you only paid a deposit on wrong, illegal, unethical? Yes, but I'm not going to think your less of a man because you have a keggle sitting on your banjo cooker.

The better route in any case is to just go down to your local brewer and ask if he's unloading a some old kegs and how much he wants for them. There's your ethics. Support a small business, build a good relationship, and feel warm and fuzzy inside. While your at it see if you can fill a jar of yeast and buy some fresh beer.

And something that I haven't seen talked about before is a good source for bran-spankin new kegs. Closest i've been able to find are reconditioned ones and resellers on commercial swap sites.

 

[Robar]

This is a pretty wild thread and I want to add something. For every home brewer who acquires a half barrel there are probably a dozen or more local small track racecars that have them. There are 6 race tracks within realistic driving distance of me and everyone of them has Saturday night racers running cars that uses beer kegs for the fuel cell. Not all guys use them but a darned good many do. Every car my father inlaw or brothers in law ever ran had beer keg fuel cells in them.

On another note I have 260 round lipped beer bottles that I bought for the dime apiece bottle deposit. Should I also return them because I was only suposed to buy the beer within and not the vessle that held it? I think not!

In support off the shrink issue, the store I work at is one of those big orange DIY stores. Our particular store had a 5.4% shrink score after inventory this summer. The management walked around patting themselves on the back for over a week over that.

The store my wife is a manager at is regional grocer. Their shrink this year was worse, but still doable at 8.4% They lost 64,000.00 in shoplifted booze alone. Thats stealing!

Keeping something you paid deposit on isn't. I won't return a keg until I'm done with it and I won't return my bottles either. If I am killing their profits maybe they better raise the price of their product a half penny like any other buisiness would. As has been said kegs are figured into the bottom line.

I never heard of BMC pulling sponcership off a race car because they had a BMC keg in the trunk using it as a fuel tank. They know it goes on and could give a **** less. Those kegs are paid for everytime some shmuck buys a bottle of BMC.

That's my two cents on this ancient dead thread, but it is so laughable that any home brewers get in a snit over supposed proffit losses of the bigboys that I had to chime in. You remember them don't you? BMC, the ones we all scoff at for the tastless, lifeless, swill that they are over-charging the masses for? Laughable I say!

 

[olllllo]

Keeping something you paid deposit on isn't. I won't return a keg until I'm done with it and I won't return my bottles either. If I am killing their profits maybe they better raise the price of their product a half penny like any other buisiness would. As has been said kegs are figured into the bottom line.

Definition of deposit:​

• 
  [*]down payment: a partial payment made at the time of purchase; the balance to be paid later
  [*]money given as security for an article acquired for temporary use; "his deposit was refunded when he returned the car"
  [*]a sum of cash that must be paid to the vendor by the purchaser. This money is a symbol of the purchaser's commitment to buy. If the offer is accepted, the deposit is applied to the down payment. If the buyer turns down the offer later, the deposit may or may not be returned.
  
  New definition?
  [*]payment for keg at a deep discount for homebrewers because the cost of the keg is "factored in" to the price. This is especially true if it is Budweiser and the person making the deposit is a homebrewer that has special knowledge of this magical economic property.​

​

That's my two cents on this ancient dead thread, but it is so laughable that any home brewers get in a snit over supposed proffit losses of the bigboys that I had to chime in. You remember them don't you? BMC, the ones we all scoff at for the tastless, lifeless, swill that they are over-charging the masses for? Laughable I say!

AB employs 30,000 people, some of them started out as homebrewers just like you. One or two post here. It puts 15 million dollars into the economy and sponsors your go-fast-left-turn pastime. You don't have to like their product.

Here's the real issue as it pertains to craft brewing (which maybe closer to your heart or do you reject them too for making a living?):

Anything that contributes to higher price kegs hurts craft brewing. In fact, if you are really cynical, you might argue that AB wants higher price kegs because it contributes to a higher barrier of entry.

On Probrewers.com one micro said that it takes up to 4 weeks to replace a keg because the big boys have huge orders to replace kegs and the micros have to wait.

AB could survive if keg prices were $500. How many micros would go under?

 

[Robar]

Obviously you have a very strong opinion for the side of the cause you champion and that is cool, but...

I'm 40 years old been drinking beer since, well since way to young. I have drank many micros and imports over the years. Never once have Ibeen to a party, reception, wake, or any other gathering where anything but big boy swill was on tap. The only time I have ever had beer from one of the many, many micro breweries is when I would go buy a six every day after work.

With that said I am sure they have to keg it to get it into local pubs and what not, so there is that. I promise when I BUY my kegs they will be BMG kegs not from a struggling micro brewery.

Yes the BUY is in big letters because I will go to one of my local party stores and ask "Can I buy a couple empty Kegs from you?" and they will say, "Sure hun I will have to charge you for the 30.00 for each one, but I can do that."

Now I have BOUGHT the kegs and not hurt any one. I didn't put a deposit on the keg, I bought it!

 

[BierMuncher]

…Yes the BUY is in big letters…

Why those aren’t big letters…

T H E S E are big letters…

 

[FlyingHorse]

Yes the BUY is in big letters because I will go to one of my local party stores and ask "Can I buy a couple empty Kegs from you?" and they will say, "Sure hun I will have to charge you for the 30.00 for each one, but I can do that."

Now I have BOUGHT the kegs and not hurt any one. I didn't put a deposit on the keg, I bought it!

You've "bought" the keg from someone who doesn't own it, and has no right to sell it to you. They put a deposit on it, same as you, and won't get it back (but they don't care because they got the $$ from you).

The "no one" who gets hurt is the rightful owner (brewery), who will have to somehow find a way to replace their $200 keg with the $30 deposit they collected.

 

[abracadabra]

Yes the BUY is in big letters because I will go to one of my local party stores and ask "Can I buy a couple empty Kegs from you?" and they will say, "Sure hun I will have to charge you for the 30.00 for each one, but I can do that."

Now I have BOUGHT the kegs and not hurt any one. I didn't put a deposit on the keg, I bought it!

Here in Georgia the law enforcement establishment has a name for it. They call it.

Receiving stolen property, Theft by purchase.

 

[Bobby_M]

Oh no. Not THIS F@#%ING thread again.

 

[camiller]

...Never once have Ibeen to a party, reception, wake, or any other gathering where anything but big boy swill was on tap.

Well, I'm also in my 40's and I have been to parties where some of the bigger micros were on tap (Sam Adams, New Belgian, Boulevard) as well as local micros like Upstream Brewing.

BTW, The local micro charges $125 deposit on the keg, the bigger ones are distributed through the same distributers as the big guys and are in the $25 range.

 

[mdd134]

OK I stole mine of off a BMC, but I think that if they are losing money then they will make it up in another area. Like the price of their beer, which doesn’t effect me lol.

 

[Orfy]

OK I stole mine of off a BMC, but I think that if they are losing money then they will make it up in another area. Like the price of their beer, which doesn’t effect me lol.

I don't think it's wise to openly admit a criminal act on a public forum.

 

[mdd134]

stole as in purchased from a scrap yard that was about to crush it.

but everyone acts as if you do this it is stolen

 

[Orfy]

Go ask ollllo

Receiving stolen goods is still illegal.
If you get a receipt then at least it shows the intention to make a legal transaction.
If the seller refuses to give a receipt of sale then it is highly likely to be an illegal transaction on the sellers behalf.

 

[olllllo]

As I stated in an earlier thread today and probably in two others over the time that I've been here...

I don't care what people do as long as they don't spread misinformation about it.
People will do as they please, but they shouldn't use this forum to absolve their behavior with wrong-headed economic theories and encourage others to buy into dubious ethical justifications.

I applaud the kegwatch efforts in GB. We do not have such a system in the states so it is virtually impossile to trace a keg's pedigree. Paying the depoit and keeping the keg, however, is pretty clear cut.

There are people on this board, that I respect a great deal, that have acquired kegs by paying a deposit and keeping the keg. I am not on a mission to judge or shame anyone. I still hold them in high regard.
If, however, they decide to post that they are completely justified in taking the kegs and that the implied message is that this is a victimless crime and that others shoud take this approach, I will (and have) post my objections.

 

[Bobby_M]

As I stated in an earlier thread today and probably in two others over the time that I've been here...

I don't care what people do as long as they don't spread misinformation about it.
People will do as they please, but they shouldn't use this forum to absolve their behavior with wrong-headed economic theories and encourage others to buy into dubious ethical justifications.

I applaud the kegwatch efforts in GB. We do not have such a system in the states so it is virtually impossile to trace a keg's pedigree. Paying the depoit and keeping the keg, however, is pretty clear cut.

There are people on this board, that I respect a great deal, that have acquired kegs by paying a deposit and keeping the keg. I am not on a mission to judge or shame anyone. I still hold them in high regard.
If, however, they decide to post that they are completely justified in taking the kegs and that the implied message is that this is a victimless crime and that others shoud take this approach, I will (and have) post my objections.

I'm glad we agree man. The breweries are the victims and we are some bad muthas. Let's get some brewing done now.

 

[charleyromeo]

I know a few people who purchased OTHER things from this website, and were very pleased with their orders.

At this link, there are kegs in 3 sizes. The prices look compareable to Ebay. Scroll down to the middle of the page.

http://www.stilldrinkin.com/Turbo Keg.htm

 

[Mr Nick]

Message deleted by Mr Nick

 

[Skrimpy]

Well, I really don't have time to read this very long thread and it seems that there are varying opinions about right and wrong so if someone has already stated it I apologize.

It has come to my attention through my hunting for a "legal" keggle that in florida, the distributors won't take a keg back for deposit without a receipt, and the scrapyards plain wont take them to keep people from selling them for the higher scrap value. That makes these things abandonned. If you see someone selling it from florida ask them if they have the receipt. If they don't, go ahead and buy it. Its just like anywhere else, abandonned property is trash (ie finders keepers). Go get em.

 

[Germey]

Let's go back to the original question of "were do you get them" and take this a slightly different direction.
For the record, I did a S-Load of research and settled on buying one from Craigslist of questionable origin. I sincerely doubt that this keq would have ever made it back to the true owner, and I am not worried about being busted by anyone.

From the Probrewer and similar boards, it seems that the cost of brand new keg is about $100 to $120. Fine, where do I get one. That is still much better than a similar sized basic Kettle from Morebeer. (and why is that exactly?) It seems that the supply chain is set up exclusively for businesses. If you go to the website for one of the manufacturing plants, there is no "buy yerself a keg" link. There are clearly people who would like to buy these. Seems like the price could be even lower if you excluded the valve assembly and dip tube that we cut out anyway. Perhaps the smaller distributors and brewers could reach out to the homebrewing community and say "buy a new keg at cost from us".
Just a thought since we are getting into free market forces and all.
Cheers
Jeremy

 

[Brewtopia]

Originally posted by Germey
From the Probrewer and similar boards, it seems that the cost of brand new keg is about $100 to $120.

Not true. Double those numbers and you'll be a lot closer.

 

[Germey]

Well, I have to admit, that makes sense, but those are the numbers I saw on the pro boards discussing this very topic. Either way, the fact we have to guess still makes the point that the market is just not open to us.

 

[trainfever]

Check with your local distributor or brewery and ask if they have any old or defective ones that you could buy or maybe they will give you. Then there will be no debate as to who the owner is.

 

[Brewing Clamper]

Ohh!! I get it!! DUCK!!

 

[HenryHill]

Ib4tl

 

[trainfever]

Just for the heck of it I just did a search on Ebay for "empty beer kegs" and the search showed up six hits. The shipping fees were high but maybe you live close by and can pick one up.

 

[Melana]

i had a chance to get a perfectly good keg at the car show/flea market last weekend for $20. I didn't buy it.
I know.. I know... i should be tarred and feathered.