Where did the hops go?

[Speedbag]

Long time peruser and lurker, first time poster here.

I’ve been brewing 1-gallon batches for a couple of years now (had brewed with friends before that and since), and have been really enjoying the experimentation with different ingredients. I’ve created well over a dozen recipes of my own, starting with all-extract batches and converting many of the favorites to partial mash. My results have been great, and I’d wager that a few of them might even be competition-worthy. Never once did I have what I would consider a bad batch….until I started to go all-grain BIAB.

Recently I converted one of my standouts, an IPA, to all-grain and made a batch. Everything went according to plan and the boil smelled wonderful, scenting my shop for several days. Fermentation was rampant, and the smell from the airlock was amazing. The batch was bottled as usual, and allowed to sit for three weeks to condition.

The problem: almost no hop flavor or aroma. Color and clarity is almost perfect, a surprise considering I never secondary and typically have a little haze. Head is abundant and laces nicely, and the beer is potent. Yet virtually no hint of hops – and there are almost 2.5 ounces total in the 1-gallon batch! The first bottle was consumed at the three week mark, and the thought then was that maybe it was too green. Fast forward another three weeks, and the absence of hop character is almost complete. I’m really at a loss here since I’ve made this recipe four times previously in extract and partial mash forms, and never had this occur before. And I’ve left bottles of earlier batches sit for several months and they were still very good.

I’ve searched around online for answers for this scenario with no luck. Water shouldn’t be an issue since I always use spring water from the grocery store. Any ideas? Along with being more than a little disappointed, I am now worried that three other all-grain recipe variants that are in various stages of finishing will be bland and unremarkable as well...

 

[m00ps]

hmm so 2.5oz per 1 gal is 12.5 oz per 5gal? Thats a bit less than I usually hop my IPAs but Im guessing it has to do with your water chemistry. At 1 gallon, maybe any issues wouldnt be as apparent, but using bottled water with no mineral additions may be more prevalent than at a smaller scale. Try adding 1-2tsp of gypsum in your next hoppy batch

 

[hezagenius]

What is your hop schedule?

 

[rhys333]

Can you provide more info on the recipe and your hop additions?

 

[Mx750ktm]

+1 to water chemistry. I struggled with this same thing once switching to BIAB. First attempt at building water from ro water and it was a drastic change in the outcome of the beer and the hop assertiveness.

 

[Speedbag]

Hops:

3g Columbus 90min

3g Simcoe 20 min

3g Columbus 10 min

6g Centennial 5 min

11g Amarillo 30 min post boil
11g Centennial 30 min post boil

17g Citra DH
9g Simcoe DH

IIRC, I used 1.5 pounds each of Maris Otter and Munich for grain, Lallemand Windsor for yeast.

 

[rhys333]

If you haven't started treating your water yet, check out the water chemistry primer in the brew science section and familiarize yourself with either the EZ Water or Bru'n Water program.

 

[cannman]

Perhaps you're suffering from an IPA overload. Are you drinking IPAs every day? step back and enjoy some malty beers for a few days and come back! I often find carbonation helps bring the hop flavor out. Give it some more conditioning time.

 

[Skiffy]

I agree with water chemistry. And not just mineral additions, but also mash pH.

 

[Speedbag]

Perhaps you're suffering from an IPA overload. Are you drinking IPAs every day? step back and enjoy some malty beers for a few days and come back! I often find carbonation helps bring the hop flavor out. Give it some more conditioning time.

Funny you mention that, I drink IPAs and PAs all the time. I had a Sam Adams Octoberfest last weekend and almost choked.

Looks like the consensus is the water may be the culprit, who would have guessed using spring water. I'll have to get some gypsum and become a little more acquainted with water chemistry.

Crazy how it all was more forgiving and worked with extracts....

 

[GHBWNY]

You mentioned this is a "conversion" from extract to BIAB. If you in fact used it, LME is often hopped (with exactly what and how much, they don't tell you). All else being equal, if the hopped LME was excluded in your conversion, and although it is an early boil addition (more for bitterness than hop flavor/aroma), you may be missing that little extra in your finished beer.

I also agree with cannman's suggestion. If you can force yourself to do it, spend a week drinking primarily malt-forward beers just to see if the hoppiness "returns" to your IPA. Sounds like you may be approaching the Lupulin Shift Threshhold.

 

[Speedbag]

Originally, my recipe was a pound each of LME and Amber. I was unaware that extract is sometimes hopped....

I think I'm probably not near the LST, since I had a couple of buddies (one of which is more of a brown ale guy) try this stuff too. Their opinion was the same on the lack of hop flavor, and that the original extract version was far better.

 

[The_Bishop]

You mentioned this is a "conversion" from extract to BIAB. If you in fact used it, LME is often hopped (with exactly what and how much, they don't tell you).

This is incorrect. Not all, or even most, LME is hopped.

 

[GHBWNY]

This is incorrect. Not all, or even most, LME is hopped.

I did not say, or mean to infer, "all" or "most" LME is hopped. I said LME is "often" hopped (depending on the kit). I have done several kits where the LME is hopped.

 

[Speedbag]

None of my extract beers (or any other for that matter) were kit based, I always used Munton's DME. I would assume it would be mentioned on the package if it were hopped....

 

[rhys333]

None of my extract beers (or any other for that matter) were kit based, I always used Munton's DME. I would assume it would be mentioned on the package if it were hopped....

It probably wasn't hopped, but if it was it would add bittering only and no flavor.

 

[Speedbag]

It probably wasn't hopped, but if it was it would add bittering only and no flavor.

Correct.

By the sounds of it I better get my hands on some gypsum and start reading about water.....

 

[rhys333]

Correct.

By the sounds of it I better get my hands on some gypsum and start reading about water.....

Calcium chloride too. Using CaCl2 along with gypsum and RO/distilled water will make it really straightforward. You can, like some folks, choose to modify your own water, but fluctuations in water minerals can mess things up.

 

[Speedbag]

Generally speaking, if using RO/distilled water, how much gypsum and/or calcium chloride should be added per gallon of water for an IPA or similar brew?

 

[rhys333]

Estimating amounts without knowing your grain bill and boil volume can't be done with any accuracy. Assuming an ~1.6 gal pre-boil volume though (and I don't if this is close to what you boil or not), you'll want mineral values that support hoppy style beers, like Calcium:80; Cl:40; Sulfate: 140. Basically more gypsyum than CaCl2 supports hoppy beers. The reverse is true for malty beers. To get these amounts (which are mg/L) you'd want something like 1.5g gypsum and 0.5g CaCl2. You need a pocket scale capable of measuring 0.1g accuracy, or better yet 0.01g. It sounds a bit freaky, but after a day or three absorbing the process and a batch later you'll be a pro at it. I've been adjusting water for a while now and I get it all figured and measured out while my mash water is heating.

I'd suggest starting with the water primer and there are a few very experienced people over there that can help with questions.

 

[aprichman]

+1 to what everyone has mentioned about water chemistry. Also consider that MO & Munich is a pretty "malty" background which is probably helping hide the hops.

 

[Derek1985]

To keep it simple I tend to use just Gypsum, Calcium Chloride and Acid malt to get my mineral content and pH where I want it. I'll cut my water with Distilled at about 25% as well. Has worked wonders and adheres to the the principles of KISS.

 

[Speedbag]

Well, let’s bring this one back from the dead, shall we?

Since this thread concluded last, I began building my water using gypsum and calcium chloride additions to water from the store per the water primer once the spring brewing season began; I’m in Minnesota and don’t care to brew in the house, so my brewing primarily takes place between April and October in my shop. I’ve brewed nine batches so far since May (still 1-gallon, all grain, BIAB) and have sampled them all now, and all share a common trait: very little hop flavor after bottling. I am utterly perplexed and it’s driving me nuts.

The first batch brewed this year was a Sierra Nevada Celebration clone, one of my favorites, the recipe directly from SN via one of the brew magazines. Hop quantities were similar to many batches that I’ve created. Since this is a known quantity and I buy a ton of it every holiday season, I thought it would be a good test batch. Alas, nearly all malt, hardly any hops, a pretty boring brew really. One of my original recipes this year was a rye ale, dry hopped with a half-ounce of Simcoe. Nice malt and rye flavor, nary a trace of the Simcoe or other hops. Carbonation and head is always good, as is color and clarity.

My procedure never varies. I am borderline obsessive about cleaning and sanitizing. Wort boil is always aggressive. I store my hops in the freezer at all times in individual sealable bags until they get weighed and go into the hop bags. I ferment for two weeks total (using the small glass big mouth fermenters) in the basement at a consistent 68 degrees, and typically dry hop at 5-7 days from bottling.

Bottling is also consistent. I rack quickly from the fermenter into a glass bottling jar containing my priming sugar water, and fill my bottles from the bottling jar and cap them immediately. I’m always careful not to plunge the cane too deeply into the yeast cake and suck up too much yeast out of the fermenter. Bottles are conditioned in the same 68 degree basement. The clincher: I taste the bottling jar leftovers of every batch and they are consistently what I expect, great hop flavor and aroma. But the hops diminish substantially upon bottling and conditioning, not changing much from two weeks in age onward.

Any ideas??? The only thing I haven’t checked is water pH, but I can’t imagine store bought water to be terribly out of line. Frankly, I’m about to go back to extracts since they always turned out, but I enjoy the flexibility of grain. Heading into fall, I am tempted to buy one of the little mini kegs and brew two identical batches, force-carbing a batch for a day or two and bottling the other to see what I get.

Argh.

 

[rhys333]

Usually spring water means its packed with minerals, which you don't really want if building you own water. Instead, you want to use either distilled or reverse osmosis. If minerals were present to start with and unaccounted for, then the pH would be way off.

 

[Speedbag]

Actually, I'm mistaken - I've been using distilled, since I always have it around to top off fish tanks....I quit buying spring for brewing this year.

 

[Speedbag]

A friend of mine sent me this link recently, which is interesting:

http://homebrewingfun.blogspot.com/2012/02/one-gallon-batches-scaling-and-other.html

I don't have any brew software to mess with regarding hop utilization, but this could be the difference between DME and AG batches....however, it doesn't explain why the leftover AG beer tastes great and the bottle conditioned is not.

 

[TheHopfather]

Edit - Nevermind, you're using distilled.

If the beer is tasting good out of the carboy and then losing something during bottle conditioning you may want to look at oxygen exposure. Oxygen will kill hop flavor/aroma real quick.

 

[Speedbag]

Oxidation is the only thing I can think of, but other than when adding the dry hop bag the only time a batch is exposed to any is at the time of bottling. And I do that as quickly as possible for that very reason.

 

[rhys333]

Oxidation is the only thing I can think of, but other than when adding the dry hop bag the only time a batch is exposed to any is at the time of bottling. And I do that as quickly as possible for that very reason.

Do you keep the fermentor and bottles out of bright sunlight?

 

[Speedbag]

Yes, basement has no windows.

The only light down there is when someone flips a lightswitch to go down there for something.

 

[Skiffy]

I responded originally that I agreed with water chemistry and mash pH. Although I still think that's important my working theory is now oxygenation, even just the rigors of racking and bottling. I know people that swear by kegging in closed systems to get the best IPAs. You said that your extract IPAs were better though? Doesn't quite make sense to me but there's a lot of reactions going on that I certainly don't know or understand.

 

[Speedbag]

Yes, the all-extract versions were far better in terms of hop flavor, just missing the body of all-grain.

This fall I think I might plan to try to brew two batches of the same recipe in the same day, one extract and one all grain, bottle them, and see how they compare.

I'm beginning to think it's a pH thing though, I don't know what else it could be besides oxidation.