What's the point of aroma hops in an aged stout?

[Anderson7000]

I recently tried to clone Surley's Darkness (a Russian Imperial Stout). It calls for aroma hops at flameout, as well as months of aging in the fermenter and bottle. Since the aromas from hops decrease over time, what is the point of using aroma hops in a beer that will be aged?

For reference, here is the darkness recipe directly from Surley:

Straight from the horse's mouth...

48% 2-Row
27% UK Pale Malt
8% Dingemans Aromatic
3% Chocolate Malt (US) 350L
3% Roasted Barley 550L
2.5% Dark Candi Syrup
2.5% Brewer's Crystals
2% Flaked Oats
2% British Crystal 50-60L
2% British Crystal 135-165L
2% Black Patent 500L
(Adds up to 102%...)

OG: 28 P (1.121)
FG: 10 P (1.040)
(Makes the ABV: 10.7%)

Target 85 IBU
Columbus for bittering
Simcoe/Amarillo for WP

When I inquire further on the gravities (since they deviate from what's listed on the site) I was told that the recipe varies a bit year to year based on raw materials available. This is the most current recipe.

I just have to say the folks at Surly are bad-asses at what they do and it's very fortunate they are willing to share their knowledge to us home brewers!

Here are two Clone discussions:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=406270
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=273322

 

[m1k3]

1) force of habit
2) it makes the hydrometer samples taste better
3) they know you'll drink it before it's ready

 

[dtwhite]

If "WP" means they add hops basically at flameout, it's still going to have plenty of time to impart bitterness on the beer.

 

[day_trippr]

I've never bothered with aroma additions on my porters or stouts.
Aroma character is s'posed to be coffee/cocoa/vanilla/roasty...not hoppy...

Cheers!

 

[filthyastronaut]

That's a good question. I'm inclined to use a neutral bittering hop and nothing else for most Stouts and Porters, aged or no.

 

[Anderson7000]

If "WP" means they add hops basically at flameout, it's still going to have plenty of time to impart bitterness on the beer.

Your right, I said flame out but the recipe says whirlpool. And there is some bitterness from the time it takes to cool down. But if they are just extracting the bitterness at WP, why not add less hops earlier?

I'm just wondering if this has to do with beta acids, etc... Which I don't understand at all. Or some other aspect of hops that I also don't understand. Maybe it's the antibacterial properties of hops that help keep the beer fresh while aging? That's pure speculation though.

 

[tagz]

Perhaps the oxidized hop flavor complements the profile. I tend to get a tea or sherry quality from hoppy beers past their prime. It's off putting in an IPA but might be complementary in a stout. Maybe they want a small amount of that character to give the beer depth.

 

[skibb]

IMHO the whole flavor/aroma categorization of hops is total BS - you get flavor AND aroma from all hops, depending on how long they boil. Take a beer and split it, where one brew gets hops at 15 minutes til end of boil, and the other one gets hops at WP - the brew with WP hops will have more flavor AND aroma than the 15 minute one. This is why you see commercial breweries adding all the hops in the boil at WP and dry hop - they want maximum oil saturation.

As far as aging goes, brews like Darkness are served fairly fresh (unless barrel aged). So the hops may come through a lot more.

 

[Stillraining]

IMHO the whole flavor/aroma categorization of hops is total BS - you get flavor AND aroma from all hops, depending on how long they boil. Take a beer and split it, where one brew gets hops at 15 minutes til end of boil, and the other one gets hops at WP - the brew with WP hops will have more flavor AND aroma than the 15 minute one. This is why you see commercial breweries adding all the hops in the boil at WP and dry hop - they want maximum oil saturation.

As far as aging goes, brews like Darkness are served fairly fresh (unless barrel aged). So the hops may come through a lot more.

I have to disagree with this a bit. To a laboratory measurement you are correct but to most peoples oratory faculties I think the Aroma/Bittering charts are doing us no harm.

I dont have experience with all the hop varieties but I do use some quite a bit .
Lets take EKG as an example...I use it for several beers but lets take my SMASH for our example. I have brewed it with both just a 60 min addition or 30 min addition and W/WO dry hopping. I cant really perceive any Aroma difference in any of them, yet the dry hoped is by far the best tasting.

So I do believe there are hops to be used for aroma and hops that wont do much of anything aiding in that area even if adding them as an aroma addition does improve their character. And I'm very glad someone else has done the foot work/experimenting for me thus making my hop "Aroma" ...if that's what I'm going after... choices much easier. YMMV

Personally I dont want aroma hops in my Stouts or Porters either unless it's intended for the same reason and outcomes as my above example. ie... Same precieved aroma Just better taste.

FWIW That same Smash base with a dry-hop of Aroma/Flavor chart rated Mosaic hop turns it into a Session IPA.. Quite lovely one actually.

 

[skibb]

Lets take EKG as an example...I use it for several beers but lets take my SMASH for our example. I have brewed it with both just a 60 min addition or 30 min addition and W/WO dry hopping. I cant really perceive any Aroma difference in any of them, yet the dry hoped is by far the best tasting.

Well it seems we sort of agree on one thing! Dry hopping gets the best oil extraction out of any other hop additions in your process - though its categorized as (or rather, people associate it with) an aroma addition, it added to the flavor of the beer, because more essential oils were in solution.

You not perceiving more aroma doesn't necessarily mean it's not there, but I see what you are saying. EKG is a more mellow hop - perceived aroma could be more dependent on hop varietals. I would think we would need a panel to taste multiple beers with multiple hops put in at multiple times to argue the case for or against increased aroma in later additions. There is only so much a photospectrometer can tell us without structured sensory analysis.

 

[masonsjax]

Hops add various characteristics at all stages of the brewing process. All late hops has been a recent trend which kicks up the aroma and flavor and therefore the perceived bitterness. Actual bitterness requires some time spent at steeping temps or higher in order to isomerize the oils.

 

[Callacave]

There's more info now coming out that dry hopping actual increases bitterness. I think Scott Janish posted it on his blog.

We're learning more than ever that dry hopping, besides adding aroma will also add flavor. The lines are definitely getting blurred now between bittering/flavor/aroma. It's intereseting.

I just did a dry hopped Berliner Weisse. Only added hops when I pitched yeast, and 7 days later for a traditional dry hop. There's a big difference in flavor and aroma from the pre-pitched wort to the finished beer.

I think there's a long way to go in understanding the role of hops and yeast relationships in beer. It's a really fun and interesting topic, and people are uncovering some cool stuff.

 

[Stillraining]

Dry hopping definitely adds some bitterness. My experimentation with dry hoping SMASH's has proven that.