What's the best way to attached the temperature controller's therometer on fermenter?

[AQUILAS]

I'll be brewing today and it'll be the first time I get to use my new ferm chamber. I'm using an ITC-1000 temp controller and I'm trying to figure out the best way to have it read the fermenter's temperature as opposed to the ambient temperature.

I've had my ferm chamber running for a week with nothing in it other than my ceramic heater and a bottle of water. I used a folded paper towel to go over the thermometer and taped it to a bottle of water. So far it's reading within 2 degree different from ambient.

Thanks for any help received.

 

[wardens355]

I tape it to the side of the fermenter under a couple small pieces of pipe insulation, a few inches below the top of the liquid level.

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

Many of us (myself included) will place the probe on the side of the fermentation vessel and surround it with an insulator of sorts (Styrofoam or bubble wrap) and then tape it to the side.

You can get fancy and rig up a thermowell if you want, but the above method has always worked for me.

 

[coolharry]

I use some left over pieces of pipe insulation as well. Probe against the carboy with the insulation taped tight against the carboy. After the first use the probe makes its own little groove in the insulation. I've got one of those stick on thermometers on my carboy also, and its always very near the set temp on my stc-1000.

 

[danath34]

I too tape it to the side. I tape the probe directly to the bucket, about a third of the way up from the bottom, then fold a sheet of bubble wrap a couple times and tape it over the probe.

 

[ChucknBeer]

Thermowell.

 

[Rockn_M]

I just use painters tape and tape it about halfway down the bucket then cover it with a random coozie. Seems to work for me.

 

[JC_Brewer]

I also recommend to the side. I have logged temperature of the beer while controlling temperatures from both locations; inside my conical via a thermowell and on the side covered with a piece of insulation.

The results verified what I suspected that when I controlled via the thermowell inside the beer, it resulted in larger (although it was only a couple degrees) temperature swings because by the time the beer hit the set temperature, it continued to cool because the surrounding air had gotten so cold it continued to cool...and when the beer got below the set temperature, it stayed there longer because it took longer to get the beer up to the set point.

Controlling from the side will result in more compressor cycles, but temperature is maintained in a tighter range.

 

[AQUILAS]

Thank you all for the suggestions. It seems that a thermowell fitting would be the way to go, but with a brewday today, I won't be able to buy and set that up. I will look into that for the future, though!

I'll probably go the way of Rockn_M with the tape and coozie as I have plenty of coozies that I've accumulated over the years.

 

[Marmadook1]

I think using a probe directly in the fermenter with an air tight seal where it comes out works really well. Prior to that i used a combo of therm strips, laser thermometer and glass tube thermometer (since i use a swamp cooler method for brewing)

 

[rodwha]

I used a piece of closed cell foam packaging and have a long piece of elastic as SWMBO has plenty of stuff like that.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I do what @Rockn_M said exactly. Blue painters tape it to the side, then take an old can/bottle koozie and tape that on top. Has never failed to work for me, I make great beer (ask my mom, she will tell you), and best of all if I forget to remove the probe while I am moving the fermentor, the tape just tears away and I do not do irreparable damage to anything or accidentally get a fermentor pulled out of my hands.

 

[Marmadook1]

Im new to brewing and have been researching what others do to maintain fermentation temps. I live in AZ so ambient temp inside is roughly 78. I use a swamp cooler method in the closest. I bought a thermometer with an 8ft wire and probe on the end. I'm wondering if I can feed the probe (sanitized) through my blow off tube and into the wort directly. Ive heard feeding through airlock causes airlock to flood.

 

[DrunkleJon]

Im new to brewing and have been researching what others do to maintain fermentation temps. I live in AZ so ambient temp inside is roughly 78. I use a swamp cooler method in the closest. I bought a thermometer with an 8ft wire and probe on the end. I'm wondering if I can feed the probe (sanitized) through my blow off tube and into the wort directly. Ive heard feeding through airlock causes airlock to flood.

Probably the best method would be to do something with a thermowell. Get a orange carboy cap with thermowell or do something like this

and install your own thermowell in an existing stopper.

 

[grainbill]

I place the probe in a separate container filled with water. Since you want to measure the temp on what is inside of your fermenter not thetemp of the fermenter itself.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I place the probe in a separate container filled with water. Since you want to measure the temp on what is inside of your fermenter not thetemp of the fermenter itself.

But.. Fermenting wort creates heat. If you are measuring ambient/chamber temp rather than the beer itself, you are probably a few degrees of during peak ferment. Measuring the outside of the fermenter is a decent middle ground to a thermowell.

 

[kayakman]

I just use a piece of elastic ( out of my wife's sewing basket ) wrapped around my fermenting bucket and stick the probe underneath.
Just make sure you are under the liquid level

 

[wardens355]

I place the probe in a separate container filled with water. Since you want to measure the temp on what is inside of your fermenter not thetemp of the fermenter itself.

The outside of the fermenter is closer to the temp of the interior of the fermenter than a glass of water, which has no biological activity and associated heat production. Probably better to measure ambient air than ambient water temperature, since the air will heat up faster due to the heat of the fermenter than a glass of water.

 

[SpeedYellow]

I place the probe in a separate container filled with water. Since you want to measure the temp on what is inside of your fermenter not thetemp of the fermenter itself.

That's definitely the worst possible way to control beer temp. You're merely measuring the ambient air temp, except you've insulated the probe from what you want to read. It's like measuring air temp but jacking up your t'stat's differential. The result is larger swings in air temp (both hot and cold) and thus larger swings in beer temp.

You could of course measure in this cup of water but set the differential really low and that might be reasonable, but you're still measuring the wrong thing. We care about *beer* temp, so ideally we should measure beer temp (thermoprobe). The next best is the fermenter wall. Next best is the air temp. Worst thing is something else like a cup of fluid or block of metal sitting in there.

 

[Firewalker11]

Logging how many times the solinoid engages in a fermentation cycle and doing that for each placement will give you rock solid proof of which placement is best with minimal hunting.

I find that simply taping the probe to the ferm bucket/keg on the side (no heat belt) leads to minimum hunting and with a suitable delay for the compressor restart, cooling is done in smaller steps.

 

[kombat]

"Best" way is a thermowell stopper, and they're pretty cheap ($20), so that's what I use.

 

[AQUILAS]

Sup folks!

Wow. I didn't really expect for this thread to go off like it did. Awesome to see everyone willing to help out! From the responses, it seems the thermowell is the best way to go and it's definitely something I will look into for the future.

It's been 2 days since brew day and I went with Rockn_M's suggestion of using coozies and so far it's been working really well. Went this route because I have a ton of coozies and I figured I could purpose two of them for this job. lol. I took 2 of my many coozies, taped the probe to one, taped the coozies together, and religiously taped it right along the line of where my fermometer is, right at about the 4.5gal mark. I have 5.5gal in the bucket so it seems like a good spot.

Right before pitching my WLP001 starter, I set my ITC-1000 to regulate at 65F, differential of about 2F, and compressor delay at 3 minutes. I've been taking readings every 8 hours. The probe is reading exactly the same as my fermometer, usually around 65F-66F and they're about 3-4F lower from the ambient temperature, which seems to be right.

The 2-coozie method is probably how I'll do this until I can upgrade to the thermowell.

 

[Firewalker11]

"Best" way is a thermowell stopper, and they're pretty cheap ($20), so that's what I use.

Not for me. The cooling\heating overshot continuously for a week. No thanks, side taping with no insulation has worked well with minimal hunting.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . I set my ITC-1000 to regulate at 65F, differential of about 2F, and compressor delay at 3 minutes.

In my opinion, 3 minutes is too short of an anti-short cycle delay. I'd add at least 5 minutes to that.

 

[AQUILAS]

In my opinion, 3 minutes is too short of an anti-short cycle delay. I'd add at least 5 minutes to that.

Right on. I will change it to an 8 minute delay as soon as I get home.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Not for me. The cooling\heating overshot continuously for a week. No thanks, side taping with no insulation has worked well with minimal hunting.

Seems like your experience is more the exception, since so many folks (me included) see no hunting with a thermowell. Are you using a heater too? Many STC-1000 users have heaters that kick on when it's over-cooled. (I use two seed mats wrapped around the fermenter)

 

[DrunkleJon]

Not for me. The cooling\heating overshot continuously for a week. No thanks, side taping with no insulation has worked well with minimal hunting.

Not to say you are wrong or question your rationale overmuch but I don't fully understand your logic with this. The ambient air temperature in the ferm chamber will over and undershoot, true. But the temperature that matters most is the temperature of the beer itself. Although the ambient temp will remain high or low depending on which stage the controller is on it really won't affect the beer much of at all.

Here is my reasoning. Air is a terrible insulator. Open your freezer someone and tell me how long it takes for the cold air to dissipate. The thermal mass of the beer is huge in comparison. If you use a gentle heater for great cycles the amount of excess heat or cold that is in the chamber will not be able to affect the temperature of the beer in any appreciable amount. You may get a fraction of a degree in overshoot. This is why people recommend you throw bricks or a pizza some in pizza ovens or keep your food freezer full as the thermal mass will keep it from cycling so much.

 

[Marmadook1]

Thermowell seems best but do you think a wire probe through the blow off tube would do the job? In my mind it seems safe unless im missing something

 

[DrunkleJon]

Thermowell seems best but do you think a wire probe through the blow off tube would do the job? In my mind it seems safe unless im missing something

All depends on the probe. Firstly I would do everything in my power to not obstruct the airlock. Be it S shaped the three piece or a blowoff. Best is to add a bit of metal tubing (preferably stainless) and cram it in there. The stc probes which I believe are the same ones the itc uses have hard to clean crannies. Plus they are not rated for liquids that I am aware of. I have heard a few stories of people successfully submerging them for a while with ultimate failure eventually.

Then again of your blowoff is of a large enough diameter and you could waterproof the probe that could work

 

[doug293cz]

I also recommend to the side. I have logged temperature of the beer while controlling temperatures from both locations; inside my conical via a thermowell and on the side covered with a piece of insulation.

The results verified what I suspected that when I controlled via the thermowell inside the beer, it resulted in larger (although it was only a couple degrees) temperature swings because by the time the beer hit the set temperature, it continued to cool because the surrounding air had gotten so cold it continued to cool...and when the beer got below the set temperature, it stayed there longer because it took longer to get the beer up to the set point.

Controlling from the side will result in more compressor cycles, but temperature is maintained in a tighter range.

Whole lot of opinions on this thread that are not backed up by data. @JC_Brewer has logged thermowell vs. taped on side, and found that the beer temp is more stable when probe is taped on the side. If anyone saying that the thermowell placement provides lower beer temperature swings than taping on the side has temp logging data comparing the two, please post it here. What is your goal?

• Stable beer temps? Then tape the probe to the side.
• Longer cool/heat cycle times? Then use a thermowell.

There is solid thermodynamic science behind why taping on the side provides more stable beer temperatures than a thermowell. The lag time in the temperature response of a thermowell, due to the high thermal mass of the fermenter contents, does cause the chamber temp to over and undershoot significantly. The chamber over/undershoots cause smaller, but still significant, over and undershoots in the beer. By having the probe taped to the side of the fermenter, the chamber temp has some influence on the temperature reading. When the chamber temp starts to undershoot, the probe reading drops a little lower, with the net result being that the cooling is shut off sooner. This results in less chamber undershoot, and therefore less beer undershoot. The same thing happens when heating.

Brew on

 

[DrunkleJon]

Whole lot of opinions on this thread that are not backed up by data. @JC_Brewer has logged thermowell vs. taped on side, and found that the beer temp is more stable when probe is taped on the side. If anyone saying that the thermowell placement provides lower beer temperature swings than taping on the side has temp logging data comparing the two, please post it here. What is your goal?

• Stable beer temps? Then tape the probe to the side.
• Longer cool/heat cycle times? Then use a thermowell.

There is solid thermodynamic science behind why taping on the side provides more stable beer temperatures than a thermowell. The lag time in the temperature response of a thermowell, due to the high thermal mass of the fermenter contents, does cause the chamber temp to over and undershoot significantly. The chamber over/undershoots cause smaller, but still significant, over and undershoots in the beer. By having the probe taped to the side of the fermenter, the chamber temp has some influence on the temperature reading. When the chamber temp starts to undershoot, the probe reading drops a little lower, with the net result being that the cooling is shut off sooner. This results in less chamber undershoot, and therefore less beer undershoot. The same thing happens when heating.

Brew on

Realize though that this is with a conical. A metal fermenter. You get a slightly different amount of insulation from plastic or glass so the reading can vary. I have no scientific proof of this other than the insulating factors of the materials of the fermenters themselves. Additionally, what we're the degrees of the beer over and undershoot. Is it really enough of a factor that there will be any noticeable difference? That is the beauty of brewing. You can be as strictly scientific as you want to be or as relaxed too. I for one will be happy to risk a fraction of a degree of variance for whatever extended lifespan and energy savings occur from fewer cycles.

 

[Natdavis777]

I used to do the Ambient air method, and it worked fine, as long as I kept ambient low and slowly ramp up. Until this killed my ferm chamber. What I mean is that my compressor kicked on God knows how many times a day, eventually causing an electrical failure to the compressor.

I tape it to the side of the carboy now, insulated in bubble wrap. The compressor doesnt kick on nearly as much, and the beer is still sitting at the desired temp. Ive never used a thermowell, so I cannot comment.

 

[Scriv]

I use a thermowell

 

[balrog]

I tape to the side. I use plastic bucket. I insulate. My ferm chamber leaves 2"-3" space on all sides of bucket, nearly 6" above. I have a PC fan running constantly. I use simple (no PID) STC+ with 1/2° hysteresis from set point temp.

Having said all that, I can tell a difference, during stable post-fermentation exotherm, of the cycling of the ferm chamber, depending on whether I rotate the bucket side with temp sensor near the mini fridge side that cools the chamber or away from it.

One man's experience.
Brew on.

 

[JC_Brewer]

I'll also add that when I did this experiment, I was logging both locations (thermowell and on the side) at the same time during primary fermentation and comparing the two locations while under the same conditions.
I agree that stainless transfers temperature differently than glass/plastic but stand by my results for my system. If I used carboys, I would do the same thing because of the amount of time it takes to change the temperature of liquid.
I don't feel that via a thermowell would give you as tight temperature control unless you had a PID controller automatically adjusting.
But hey, in the end we're still making beer.

 

[KartRacer54]

I use a Velcro strap around the fermentor with RC battery padding.

 

[bondra76]

I do a blowoff tube, and feed my STC-1000 temperate probe through the tube and directly into the fermenting wort.

No need for thermowell.

 

[doug293cz]

Realize though that this is with a conical. A metal fermenter. You get a slightly different amount of insulation from plastic or glass so the reading can vary. I have no scientific proof of this other than the insulating factors of the materials of the fermenters themselves. Additionally, what we're the degrees of the beer over and undershoot. Is it really enough of a factor that there will be any noticeable difference? That is the beauty of brewing. You can be as strictly scientific as you want to be or as relaxed too. I for one will be happy to risk a fraction of a degree of variance for whatever extended lifespan and energy savings occur from fewer cycles.

For best results you would want to balance the amount of insulation on the outside of the temp probe vs. the thermal conductivity of the fermenter. You want most of the temp input to come from the beer, but a significant fraction (maybe 20-30%) to come from the chamber. So, with stainless you would need less insulation than with plastic or glass.

Another thing you want to balance is the wattage of the heat source if you have one. Too high a wattage on the heater will cause the chamber to cycle more than a lower wattage. (It'd be nice if you could also easily balance the cooler power, but that's a lot harder to do than change heaters.) You want just a little more heat available from the heater than the chamber loses to ambient. Of course the heat lost by the chamber will vary depending on the temperature outside of the chamber.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

"Best" way is a thermowell stopper, and they're pretty cheap ($20), so that's what I use.

But in another thread you say this:

I've been using a 60W lightbulb covered with a metal coffee can. However, I've been having a lot of trouble stabilizing fermentation temperatures. I brewed a Kolsch last weekend and put it in my chest freezer with the aforementioned lightbulb, and the STC-1000 set to 16.5° C +/- 0.3° C, with the temperature probe in a thermowell stopper in the glass carboy.

I found that the temperature would swing wildly. I was seeing temperatures everywhere from 13.5° C all the way up to 19° C. It seems when the light bulb came on, the chamber would get so warm, and was so well insulated, that when the beer reached the desired temperature, it just kept getting warmer.

Anyway, I've removed the light bulb and replaced it with a heating belt my wife used to use for wine making (which I probably should have just used in the first place). The temperatures seem MUCH more stable now.

This other post describes experiences that are consistent with what I said in posts #30 & #38 above.

Brew on

 

[kombat]

I don't think that's a "but" as much as it's an "and." There's nothing inconsistent there. I was using a thermowell in both cases. The problem was the light bulb, not the thermowell. Now that I'm using a heating belt (with the thermowell), I'm getting very stable temperatures.