What to do with Omengang yeast?

[MikePote]

I recently cultured omengang yeast from a bottle of hennepin. I have been trying to figure out what characteristics the yeast will give my beer and what type of beer I should brew with it but have really found a lack of information when searching, so hear I am.

I was hoping for suggestions on what to brew with this yeast. I was thinking a simple Belgian but wanted to know what other people had done with this yeast and how it turned out. I wanted to make something easy as whatever I make will only be my second all grain.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

-Mike

 

[ahpsp]

Why not a saison? Pilsner malt for the backbone, a pound or two of wheat malt, and a pound or so of sugar. 20 or so IBUs from a Saaz. That would work great with Ommegang yeast, and is a very simple brew. I add the dissolved sugar just after high krausen, but folks do fine adding it to the kettle.

 

[JonM]

How about a patersbier? That's about as simple as it gets and it will allow the yeast characteristics to really show through.

Do you have the ability to control temps for a couple different fermenters? If so, it might be a good experiment to split a batch and do 1/2 at say 62 degrees and 1/2 at 68.

 

[runs4beer]

I did a Saison with Chinese rock sugar and Chinese candied ginger that came out well. Then repitch for a dark strong great too. Its a flexible yeast, they use it for their Wit too.

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[jsledd]

I did a Saison with Chinese rock sugar and Chinese candied ginger that came out well. Then repitch for a dark strong great too. Its a flexible yeast, they use it for their Wit too.

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That sounds interesting....can you post the recipe?

 

[runs4beer]

Sure, give me a little time yo find it, it was a few years back.
If you have a Chinese or international supermarket (or a proper China Town)
You'll find Chinese Xin Hua Rock Candy (Yellow lump Sugar) and candied ginger. Now is s good time to hunt down the ginger because its part of the Chinese new year celebration. Just look at the ingredients of the ginger to be sure there's nothings in it you don't want in your beer!

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[MikePote]

Runs4beer any luck on the recipe? I love the idea of a simple siason. Does anybody have input on ahpsp's idea? The only siason I had ever had before yesterday was the hennipin I cultured from and i was reeeeeealy intoxicated when I tried it and didnt remember what I thought. Yesterday I bought a siaosn and really enjoyed it so I will take the advise and brew one.

 

[ahpsp]

I tend to keep my saison recipes very simple, and I do partial mash because I do not have an AG setup. Basically I shoot for 1.050-.060 as the OG, with 25 or so IBUs from either Saaz or Hallertau. I don't add any crystal malts, just a base malt and usually wheat or rye malt. Both make a very good saison. They ferment quickly and quite dry (most of mine, with a variety of saison yeasts, end around 1.004-1.006, which is another reason to keep your OG low if you don't want a high ABV beer.) I pitch in the mid 60s, and let it warm up from there. In the winter I actually use a heater to get it up to around 70 for the bulk of the fermentation. In the summer I let it get as hot as it wants.

There are lots of recipes around, some much more complex than what I've mentioned here.

 

[ericbw]

I did a saison with Ommegang yeast I cultured. When I first tried it after 2 weeks, it was blah. After 3 months, it is pretty good.

Here's my recipe for a gallon.

OG: 1.064
FG: 1.008
7.3% ABV

2 lb 2-row base
.25 lb wheat malt
.25 lb candi syrup*

.3 oz Willamette at 60
.5 oz saaz at 0

.6 oz fresh orange peel at 0 (one orange)

Mashed at 152 for an hour

Pitched at 90

Fermented at 80 degrees for 1 week, then in the 70s for two weeks.

*(made my own that was a little darker than clear, but not amber)

I used Willamette because I have a lot on hand.

Notes: for the basic recipe, next time I will up the aroma hops because its s little low. Might add more wheat as well.

I'm planning on doing this again with some additional spices, but this week it really turned a corner. It's creamy and smooth, the orange is there in the aroma, and the yeast is subtle but funky.

I did a gallon for an experiment and to end up with a large culture of the yeast. It's been refrigerated but I will have to make a starter again.

I think fermenting hot will get the strong farmhouse qualities. I sat the fermenter next to the food dehydrator to keep it at 80.

I'm surprised they use the same yeast for everything, so it must be pretty flexible, depending on the temperature. I like all their beers.

Also, I think you should carb a saison pretty high, like a wheat.


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[runs4beer]

Sorry drop the ball...

I looked back and saw that I did this:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=238831

How Rye I Am (Rye Saison) - 2011 - 1st Place Best of Show - HBT Comp


But the Chinese rock sugar at 15 minutes and the a package ginger at flame out.


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[MikePote]

Im mashing now. Recipe as follows:

8 lb pilsner 2 row
1 lb wheat malt
1 lb cane sugar

.4ish Columbus 16.3% AA @ 60
Three fruit marmalade

Mashing @ 148-150 for 90minutes



Any advise on how much marmalade to use. I was thinking about half of the 18oz jar. If anybody has any input I would appreciate it. Im about half hour into the mash and planned on adding the marmalade at the end of the boil when I add the sugar. Thanks

 

[MikePote]

By the way the above was done SUPER simple on purpose. I decided to try and create something easy and inexpensive as it is only my second all grain and im looking to find a few inexpensive go-to recipes to have on hand.

Guy at LHBS recommended a high AA hop and only use as a bittering. He said if it were him going for simple he would use a little Columbus as opposed to a bunch of saaz. Im hop clueless so I told him to decide for me. He also had the its a saison so anything goes philosophy which worked for me.

 

[ericbw]

By the way the above was done SUPER simple on purpose. I decided to try and create something easy and inexpensive as it is only my second all grain and im looking to find a few inexpensive go-to recipes to have on hand.

Guy at LHBS recommended a high AA hop and only use as a bittering. He said if it were him going for simple he would use a little Columbus as opposed to a bunch of saaz. Im hop clueless so I told him to decide for me. He also had the its a saison so anything goes philosophy which worked for me.

Sounds like a good one. How much marmalade did you end up using? Added at flameout?


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[MikePote]

About half the jar (9oz). I didn't measure but it was right there. I added with about 5 min left in the boil.

How about ferment temps? I was going to keep it in my 65 degree basement for about two days, then bring it in my 72 degree kitchen and let it do what it wants. I don't really have an option to raise the temp much more than that aside from putting a blow dryer on it for 15 minutes a couple times a day (which I am really considering). Thoughts?

Thanks

 

[PLOVE]

Are you sure that the yeast you cultured from the bottle is the same used for secondary? I recall reading somewhere that Ommegang filters everything and repitches something different for secondary. Might be good, but might not be the same as the house strain.

 

[ericbw]

Are you sure that the yeast you cultured from the bottle is the same used for secondary? I recall reading somewhere that Ommegang filters everything and repitches something different for secondary. Might be good, but might not be the same as the house strain.

I don't know for sure, but from culturing it, I know that Hennepin yeast from the bottle is funky and full of the same character as the finished beer. If it is not the same yeast, then it's another very good Belgian style yeast. I'm not sure it would make sense to filter and then repitch with an awesome yeast for bottling.

I really wouldn't think they filter the Witte - it's a cloudy wheat beer.

 

[ericbw]

About half the jar (9oz). I didn't measure but it was right there. I added with about 5 min left in the boil.

How about ferment temps? I was going to keep it in my 65 degree basement for about two days, then bring it in my 72 degree kitchen and let it do what it wants. I don't really have an option to raise the temp much more than that aside from putting a blow dryer on it for 15 minutes a couple times a day (which I am really considering). Thoughts?

Thanks

I think that if you want that rustic, farmhouse saison quality (funk), then you have to run it pretty high. I think I read upper 80s somewhere. I think it will attenuate more at high temps and give more flavor as well. Cooler temps will be more subdued. I would put it in the kitchen from the start, because during reproduction is when the yeast make esters (flavors/aromas we want). So the temp during that time should be at the temp you need to get that result.

Also, wort temp is higher than air temp, so a 72 degree kitchen might be getting you closer to 77-78, which is good.

Liquid heats and cools more slowly than air, so I don't think the hair dryer is a good way to do it. It would take more than 15 minutes to have an effect. I think you're better off putting it close to a heating vent where it gets regular heat (and the vent area is warm and concentrated), and then after a week or so, move it to where you had it and it should be in the low 70s.

Right now, it's about 60 degrees in the basement, and I have a seed mat that comes on and off every 30 minutes. It has kept my Irish Red at about 64-65 really nicely like that. I think if I wanted to get to 80 degrees, I would start by trying to cycle it on for 90 minutes and off for 30 and see how that works to maintain a higher temp.

A space heater would also work pretty well, but you don't want that on all the time while you're gone.

Even so, I think you can end up with a good result at 72, so if nothing else, I would keep it at that temp the whole time.

Having said all that, I'm no expert - I just love Ommegang and have cultured the yeast!

 

[troglodytes]

Are you sure that the yeast you cultured from the bottle is the same used for secondary? I recall reading somewhere that Ommegang filters everything and repitches something different for secondary. Might be good, but might not be the same as the house strain.

From everything I have read, Ommegang uses the same yeast in the Witte and Hennepin and they bottle condition with the primary strain. I've cultured some from Hennepin myself and can attest to the funk this yeast gives off.

 

[MikePote]

From everything I have read, Ommegang uses the same yeast in the Witte and Hennepin and they bottle condition with the primary strain. I've cultured some from Hennepin myself and can attest to the funk this yeast gives off.

Everything I have read has told me the same.

As far as the temp I will take it to the kitchen now. Unfortunately my heat vents are all in the ceiling so putting it on a vent isn't going to happen.

I cultured the yeast and upped it to a 300 is ML starter where it sat in my fridge. Yesterday I decided on a whim to brew the beer but I had to step up the yeast one more time. Right now it is on the stirplate eating 1.5L if 1.040 starter wort for about 24 hours. I was going to wait till tomorrow morning (36 hours on stirplate), cold crash while I am at work, and pitch when I get home. Please let me know if I should do something different.

I am like a gitty little girl with this beer. It is my first real all grain (the first was 4 one gallon SMASH "education" beers), first saison, first cultured yeast, and first non dry yeast. Plus my mash was perfect and my numbers were dead on and it only cost me like $17 worth of grain and marmalade with free yeast. REALLY excited.

Thanks for everyone's advise.

 

[ericbw]

If you can save on yeast, beer is cheap!


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[MikePote]

If you can save on yeast, beer is cheap!


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If it turns out good how could I complain about $.30 a beer!

 

[ericbw]

That's why I don't understand the cost of kits. It seems like they can run pretty high, and the ingredients are much less purchased separately.

I do small batches of 1, 2.5,or 3 gallons. So they is cheaper anyway.

I have been reusing yeast and I bought 2 lbs of hops last year. I know the hops won't last forever, in fact I might have to throw them out long before they're gone. But with those savings, I know I can come in way under $15 a batch, maybe even 11-12 per batch.


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[MikePote]

Not that anybody is anxiously awaiting the results of my brew but this thing is good after only six days in the bottle. A little dry, a little saison funk, a little Belgian, and a hint of the black pepper I added at the end of the boil. It is still grainy/green but good. I really think when the flavors blend and mellow out the funk and Belgian tastes will shine and this beer will be great. I bottled six days ago after 11 days in primary. I will definitely brew this or something similar to this again. Thanks to anybody who helped me make this beer.

 

[ericbw]

How much pepper?

 

[MikePote]

If I remember correctly only a teaspoon or maybe even half a teaspoon. It was one of those "yeah what the hell" ingredients when I was three hours into brewing and six beer in.

 

[MikePote]

Although I am moderately intoxicated I am drinking one of these right now. I really like this beer. The Belgian flavor is pretty much gone but it its well balanced and easy to drink with some saison funk. Prior to brewing this I had only had two saisons, one of which I harvested the yeast for this beer from, and wasnt really crazy about either of them. I am by no means knowledgeable or well versed on saisons but I like what I have made and would recommend giving it a try especially if you want to brew something inexpensive and different. In the next week or so I will pick up a couple commercial saisons to compare but I will definitely brew this or a variation of it soon. I may add a little rye next time. Thanks to everybody who helped me on this thread.

 

[dudius]

For future reference, if you have small containers that you can attach airlocks to you can try and find yeast characteristics by fermenting some simple "wort" made from water and light dry malt extract. This can be inexpensive and it can give you an idea of what your yeast will do (attenuation, flocculation, fermentation times, and flavors). Very soon I'll be doing this with samples from a few bottle-conditioned beers I like.

Doing everything on a small scale with ldme won't give a complete yeast flavor profile (a lot of this comes from what yeast does with things from malt and hops) but you can still get a good idea about how it will ferment.

 

[ericbw]

Although I am moderately intoxicated I am drinking one of these right now. I really like this beer. The Belgian flavor is pretty much gone but it its well balanced and easy to drink with some saison funk. Prior to brewing this I had only had two saisons, one of which I harvested the yeast for this beer from, and wasnt really crazy about either of them. I am by no means knowledgeable or well versed on saisons but I like what I have made and would recommend giving it a try especially if you want to brew something inexpensive and different. In the next week or so I will pick up a couple commercial saisons to compare but I will definitely brew this or a variation of it soon. I may add a little rye next time. Thanks to everybody who helped me on this thread.

What do you mean the "Belgian flavor" is gone? If the yeast flavor is there (the funk), then you've got the thing that gives it a Belgian flavor. Is it the pepper that faded? It could also be that you're intoxicated, by your own admission.

If you can find Green Flash Saison Diego, it is a pretty good, mellow saison. It seems a little maltier than Hennepin, which is yeasty and spicy.

 

[MikePote]

For future reference, if you have small containers that you can attach airlocks to you can try and find yeast characteristics by fermenting some simple "wort" made from water and light dry malt extract. This can be inexpensive and it can give you an idea of what your yeast will do (attenuation, flocculation, fermentation times, and flavors). Very soon I'll be doing this with samples from a few bottle-conditioned beers I like.

Doing everything on a small scale with ldme won't give a complete yeast flavor profile (a lot of this comes from what yeast does with things from malt and hops) but you can still get a good idea about how it will ferment.

Brilliant idea. Twice I have done this with gallon jugs. I made four 1ish gallon SMASH beers (two malts two hops for a total of four beers) and once to test cider fermented with ale and wine yeast. I have the sludge from a dead guy clone that used US-05 and harvested bottle dregs from a hefe in the fridge. When I get a couple more I will absolutely do this. Thanks for the tip.

 

[MikePote]

What do you mean the "Belgian flavor" is gone? If the yeast flavor is there (the funk), then you've got the thing that gives it a Belgian flavor. Is it the pepper that faded? It could also be that you're intoxicated, by your own admission.

If you can find Green Flash Saison Diego, it is a pretty good, mellow saison. It seems a little maltier than Hennepin, which is yeasty and spicy.

The first time I tried the beer it was like A saison with the an aftertaste that tasted like a Belgian wit and a hint of pepper but very green. Now the Belgian aftertaste is gone and the pepper has either mellowed or is covered up by the saison funk.

I also I have a hard time describing what Im tasting. Ive only been into real beer for a year and a half or so and only have about 10ish brews under my belt and so far have had a hard time discerning what flavors came from where and what those flavors actually are. I also have only had three commercial saisons in my life - two hennipin that the yeast for my saison came from which I really don't remember enough to compare, and a New Holland Golden Cap which I bought yesterday to compare to mine. The golden cap had all the same flavors as mine but MUCH more mellow.