What the heck? Pellicle?

[pvpeacock]

I brewed a simple Saison 3 weeks ago using Belle Saison dry yeast. This is a recipe I have made many times in the past with great results. I fermented it an SS Brewtech conical and everything seemed normal. My pre-fermentation SG was 1.050 and it finished at 1.001 which is not unusual for this yeast and recipe. Yesterday, I transferred the beer to a keg and it looked crystal clear. However, when I opened the lid of the conical to clean it I found a strange white film below the high krausen mark. What the heck is it? I never opened the lid before transferring to the keg, so I have no idea if the white film was floating on the surface of the beer before I transferred it. I have never seen anything like this before.

I did use Imperial Juice (A38) yeast in the last batch I fermented in this conical, which I understand can develop a pellicle. However, I disassemble my conicals and soak all the parts in PBW and thoroughly clean and sanitize the parts and conical with starsan.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

 

[hottpeper13]

I just kegged a beer fermented with 644 Trois in a wood barrel(have to keep them wet) and that waxy stuff was clinging to the charred inside. I too would like to know what it is,does not seem to affect the flavor at racking time. I hope it's ok because that barrel is now a primary fermenter of very fruity beers,and I'm looking forward to many more. Racked on top of it and it's bubbling away. ???

 

[The_Bishop]

That looks like the remnants of a pellicle to me.

 

[secondbase]

Definitely looks like a pellicle to me too. You could have picked up the infection at many points. I would be careful using any plastic equipment that touched that beer in upcoming batches for fear of repeat infection.

 

[radwizard]

I would guess Pellicle for sure. Did you taste for any off flavors?

 

[pvpeacock]

I tasted my SG sample a few days before I kegged it and it tasted fine, just like what I would expect from a saison. Guess I will just let it age for a while in the keg and see what happens. Unfortunately, I just opened the lid on an Oatmeal Stout I brewed a week after the Saison and it has a pellicle. The sample tastes fine as well, but it looks like I have an infection somewhere in my process.

 

[radwizard]

Was it in the same fermenter?

 

[pvpeacock]

No. Two different conicals which is a real bummer.

 

[pvpeacock]

I find it interesting although probably coincidental that I used Imperial Dy Hop (A24) and Citrus (A20) yeasts in the prior batches in these conicals. A20 is described as a "wild saccharomyces strain" that was previously thought to be a Brett strain (see also WLP644). I have to wonder if these yeasts are causing the pellicles.

 

[day_trippr]

Contact Imperial, include a telling pic or two, and see what they say...

Cheers!

 

[radwizard]

From what I understand A20 can create a pellicle. I use both of these yeast but have not seen any pellicles in my beers.

I'm not sure if the competitive environment of a contamination could contribute to the pellicle formation, but it is pretty interesting.

I think day trippr's advice is good. It would be interesting to hear what they say.
I would have a hard time thinking it is coincidental, but I would image nobody would be able to really know... Have you been brewing sours or funky stuff recently?

 

[pvpeacock]

I have never brewed a sour before and have never had an infection since I got back in to brewing 4 years ago. Nothing has changed about how or where I brew, clean, sanitize, etc. That's what has me puzzled.

 

[pvpeacock]

I wrote to Imperial with my story and will report any response I get. In the meantime, I checked my Oatmeal Stout last night and took the attached photos. I then took a gravity sample which tasted fine and then kegged the beer. I will let this one age for at least a few months and see what happens. What has me stumped is that the Saison and Stout both taste fine despite the pellicles. Maybe that will change over time. I'll have to wait and see. In the meantime, I've ordered new washers, hoses, stoppers, gaskets etc. and have already started a thorough and deep clean of the conicals including hot PBW soaks, concentrated Starsan soaks, boiling water soaks, etc. Hopefully, I will never see another unwanted pellicle.

 

[paneubert]

Those photos honestly look to me like classic pellicle. Round with radiating arms.

 

[passedpawn]

FWIW, you get a similar pellicle if you ferment in a wet vac. It makes a lovely 16 gallon fermentor BTW. You don't need all that SS for a sour. (oud bruin with roeselare)

 

[oceanic_brew]

FWIW, you get a similar pellicle if you ferment in a wet vac. It makes a lovely 16 gallon fermentor BTW. You don't need all that SS for a sour. (oud bruin with roeselare)

Hahahhaha wow

 

[pvpeacock]

When did Craftsman start selling 16 gallon fermenters? Or is that a mash tun with built in circulation/whirlpool pump?

 

[passedpawn]

DIY! Just connect the vac to my mill and grind. Then stick the vac in my HLT. No pump needed. This mash tun really sucks

Same for fermentor. Sucks the goodness right out of the mash tun. No bother boiling, hell, it's a wet vac. Terroir brew. The character gotten from local flora fauna is amazing. Wet vac brewing is the latest craze.

 

[pvpeacock]

The news gets worse. I made a 3rd batch of beer before I fully appreciated I had an infection - an Irish Red Ale. For the first 10 days, it looked fine -- no pellicle. However, over the weekend, I went to keg it and found another pellicle. 3 batches, 3 infections. Arghhhhhhhh!. Like the prior infected batches, this one did not taste or smell bad at all. I did have a hint of tartness, but otherwise, tasted like an Irish Red should.

After I kegged that batch, I disassembled both SS Brewtech Conicals, broke apart the ball valves and soaked everything in PBW over night. I threw away and replaced everything that was rubber or plastic including the rubber bungs and airlocks, the washers and the tri-clover gaskets and the lid gaskets/seals and all hoses. After a good PBW soak, I soaked all the parts in Starsan overnight. I then put all the parts in my dishwasher and set it on "sanitize." I then reassembled the conicals and filled both to the brim with a double strength starsan solution and let them soak. I made an amber ale on MLK day and it is happily fermting in one of the conicals. I've got my fingers crossed that my infection woes are over. I will keep you posted.

 

[Riverevir]

Curious to see how this turns out so I'm in for the results - fingers crossed for you.

 

[jporacion]

The news gets worse. I made a 3rd batch of beer before I fully appreciated I had an infection - an Irish Red Ale. For the first 10 days, it looked fine -- no pellicle. However, over the weekend, I went to keg it and found another pellicle. 3 batches, 3 infections. Arghhhhhhhh!. Like the prior infected batches, this one did not taste or smell bad at all. I did have a hint of tartness, but otherwise, tasted like an Irish Red should.

After I kegged that batch, I disassembled both SS Brewtech Conicals, broke apart the ball valves and soaked everything in PBW over night. I threw away and replaced everything that was rubber or plastic including the rubber bungs and airlocks, the washers and the tri-clover gaskets and the lid gaskets/seals and all hoses. After a good PBW soak, I soaked all the parts in Starsan overnight. I then put all the parts in my dishwasher and set it on "sanitize." I then reassembled the conicals and filled both to the brim with a double strength starsan solution and let them soak. I made an amber ale on MLK day and it is happily fermting in one of the conicals. I've got my fingers crossed that my infection woes are over. I will keep you posted.

any updates on this?

 

[pvpeacock]

I just kegged an amber ale yesterday after letting it ferment for 2 weeks in one of to conicals. NO INFECTION! I think the infection is definitely behind me now. I'm convinced the infection came from one of two places: my rubber transfer hose or my fermenter ball valves. I use the same rubber hose with a camlock fitting to gravity transfer everything: hot water from kettle to mash tun, wort from the mash tun to the kettle, post-boil wort from the kettle to the conical and, finally, the beer from the conical to the keg. I usually run hot water through the hose and then throw it in a bucket of starsan after each use during the brewing day. However, when I cut the old hose off the camlock fitting, I could see a lot of caked on gunk inside the hose and on the camlock fitting. Yuck! In addition, although I replaced by original SS Brewtech ball locks with Stout sanitary ball valves, I only disassembled them maybe once every 10 brews. When I broke them apart after the infection, I could see some gunk hidden in the groove on the top of the ball and in the plastic washers.

I've learned my lesson and plan to be sanitation paranoid like I was when I started brewing. I also plan to disassemble my conical ball valves after each use. Finally, I plan to use my dishwasher on "sanitize" a lot more.

 

[jporacion]

I just kegged an amber ale yesterday after letting it ferment for 2 weeks in one of to conicals. NO INFECTION! I think the infection is definitely behind me now. I'm convinced the infection came from one of two places: my rubber transfer hose or my fermenter ball valves. I use the same rubber hose with a camlock fitting to gravity transfer everything: hot water from kettle to mash tun, wort from the mash tun to the kettle, post-boil wort from the kettle to the conical and, finally, the beer from the conical to the keg. I usually run hot water through the hose and then throw it in a bucket of starsan after each use during the brewing day. However, when I cut the old hose off the camlock fitting, I could see a lot of caked on gunk inside the hose and on the camlock fitting. Yuck! In addition, although I replaced by original SS Brewtech ball locks with Stout sanitary ball valves, I only disassembled them maybe once every 10 brews. When I broke them apart after the infection, I could see some gunk hidden in the groove on the top of the ball and in the plastic washers.

I've learned my lesson and plan to be sanitation paranoid like I was when I started brewing. I also plan to disassemble my conical ball valves after each use. Finally, I plan to use my dishwasher on "sanitize" a lot more.

My gaskets are stained. Will that be a problem? I faced another contamination but it maybe because of a suckback.