What is your eHERMS process (3 vessel)?

[kevin58]

For those using 3 vessel electric HERMS systems what is your process from heating strike water and dough-in to mash recirculation and sparge.

The issues I'm facing are...

1) Losing a lot of heat in the dough-in process. I heat strike water to recommended temperature but immediately after dough-in my mash temp is far lower than expected. I correct this by simply increasing the recommended strike temp but I have to go nearly 20°F higher than my target mash temp. example: if I want a mash temp of 150° I heat my strike water to 170°. In my previous brewing systems I never had to heat strike water more than 8 to 10° above my mash target so this is kind of flooring me. My thermometers are correctly calibrated and I am under-letting.

2) Not sure what flow rate to use for best heat transfer through the HERMS coil when recirculating during the mash.

3) Also not sure how best to regulate the flow rate while fly sparging.

Thanks in advance for you guidance.

 

[IslandLizard]

Re: 1)
Is your mash tun insulated in some way? Is it very large compared to the batch you're mashing?
I mention these, due to the thermal mass of and heat loss from a stainless kettle.

For mashing 5.5 gallon batches (1.060-1.070 range) in a converted rectangular cooler I need to add 14°F (!) to my Beersmith calculated strike temp* to come out either spot on or up to 2 degrees high after stirring well. Like you, I also underlet, the 1/2" silicone hose from the boil kettle is only 3' long.
Those extra 2 degrees are lost by stirring another minute, just leaving the lid off for a minute (or 2), or I just let it be a little higher for those first 10-15' after which it gets another stir.

* Now I said this, we should tweak the equipment profile (i.e., "thermal mass" of the mash tun, possibly "heat losses" too) to get this calculated strike temp closer to what it should be in real life.
I've been underletting only for the past year, so the tun is not prewarmed as it used to be before, by adding strike water a few degrees hotter than calculated and wait 5-10' until it hit around the sweet spot. That makes a big difference!

 

[day_trippr]

From a couple years experience, the mash really needs one good stirring a few minutes after underletting to equalize the top-to-bottom temperature. It'll totally throw off meaningful temperature readings otherwise.

fwiw, wrt equipment thermal mass I run three Blichmann 20g G1 kettles and have my BeerSmith3 profile pretty tight. Looking at my brew logs from the last few 10 gallon batches, I've been using mid-160°F strike water with the MLT sitting at ~80°F and the grain at ~68°F to hit 152°F - after that one good stir, and just before starting recirculation...

Cheers!

 

[sicktght311]

Heres my start to finish process, which closely follows Kal's process at TheElectricBrewery

1) Fill HLT to submerge the Herms coil
2) Fill the Mash Tun with my strike water
3) Turn on HLT heating element and recirculate Strike water through herms coil. I set the controller to around 2 degrees above my target mash temp, NOT a much higher strike temp. This heats both the HLT water, and the water in my Mash Tun at the same time
4) Once i reach my target temp, shut off the wort pump, heating element in the HLT, but keep the HLT recirculation pump going.
5) Add my grains and stir vigorously to homogenize and clear up any dough balls. Only takes a minute or two
6) Turn on my wort pump and open the valve to about 1/4 to 1/3 to let the grain bed settle. The mash temp will typically at this point be much lower than my target temp, but through the recirculation it jumps back up to temp within 5 minutes or so
7) Turn my controller down to my actual mash temp, and turn the element in the HLT back on
8) Mash for 60 mins with constant recirculation through the herms coil keeping an eye on flow and making sure i'm not compacting the grain bed and getting a stuck mash
9) Once the mash is done, i turn my controller up to 170, and wait for it to reach for mashout
10) once 170 is reached, i turn off the wort pump, reconfigure my hoses for sparge, start the flow into the boil kettle through the whirlpool port, and once i have about a half gallon in there i start the flow of sparge water over the grainbed from the HLT keeping 1" of liquid on top at all times and matching flow
11) Once i have transferred my total calculated amount of sparge water to the MT, i'll completely turn off the HLT element and Recirculation pump, and typically then i'll turn on the Boil kettle element to start heating the water as its filling
12) Once i reach my target preboil volume, i turn all the pumps off, drain the lines and rinse with some of the hot water in the HLT, and then i set the pump and hoses up for eventual whirlpool once the boil is done

At this point everyone's got pretty much the same process. Chill, whirlpool, transfer to fermenter. I typically empty the mash tun while the boil is going on, i'll rinse it with cold water to clean any grains out, then i'll transfer the remaining hot HLT water over to the Mash Tun, and dry the HLT. I redirect the first few gallons of hot water from my chiller to the Mash tun to fill to about 8 gallons (which is just above my boil kettle's grime line), add OxiClean, and i'll let that soak while the chill is finishing. Once the chill is finished and the wort is in the fermenter, i shop vac out the bottom of the boil kettle, transfer the Oxiclean solution over to the boil kettle through the pump, and then set the pump to whirlpool the warm oxiclean solution for a half hour or so. Rinse the Mash tun with clean water. Scrub then drain the boil kettle, rinse and fill with a couple gallons of clean water, circulate through the pump, then drain everything and i'm done

Phew that was exhausting to type

 

[Blazinlow86]

Heres my start to finish process, which closely follows Kal's process at TheElectricBrewery

1) Fill HLT to submerge the Herms coil
2) Fill the Mash Tun with my strike water
3) Turn on HLT heating element and recirculate Strike water through herms coil. I set the controller to around 2 degrees above my target mash temp, NOT a much higher strike temp. This heats both the HLT water, and the water in my Mash Tun at the same time
4) Once i reach my target temp, shut off the wort pump, heating element in the HLT, but keep the HLT recirculation pump going.
5) Add my grains and stir vigorously to homogenize and clear up any dough balls. Only takes a minute or two
6) Turn on my wort pump and open the valve to about 1/4 to 1/3 to let the grain bed settle. The mash temp will typically at this point be much lower than my target temp, but through the recirculation it jumps back up to temp within 5 minutes or so
7) Turn my controller down to my actual mash temp, and turn the element in the HLT back on
8) Mash for 60 mins with constant recirculation through the herms coil keeping an eye on flow and making sure i'm not compacting the grain bed and getting a stuck mash
9) Once the mash is done, i turn my controller up to 170, and wait for it to reach for mashout
10) once 170 is reached, i turn off the wort pump, reconfigure my hoses for sparge, start the flow into the boil kettle through the whirlpool port, and once i have about a half gallon in there i start the flow of sparge water over the grainbed from the HLT keeping 1" of liquid on top at all times and matching flow
11) Once i have transferred my total calculated amount of sparge water to the MT, i'll completely turn off the HLT element and Recirculation pump, and typically then i'll turn on the Boil kettle element to start heating the water as its filling
12) Once i reach my target preboil volume, i turn all the pumps off, drain the lines and rinse with some of the hot water in the HLT, and then i set the pump and hoses up for eventual whirlpool once the boil is done

At this point everyone's got pretty much the same process. Chill, whirlpool, transfer to fermenter. I typically empty the mash tun while the boil is going on, i'll rinse it with cold water to clean any grains out, then i'll transfer the remaining hot HLT water over to the Mash Tun, and dry the HLT. I redirect the first few gallons of hot water from my chiller to the Mash tun to fill to about 8 gallons (which is just above my boil kettle's grime line), add OxiClean, and i'll let that soak while the chill is finishing. Once the chill is finished and the wort is in the fermenter, i shop vac out the bottom of the boil kettle, transfer the Oxiclean solution over to the boil kettle through the pump, and then set the pump to whirlpool the warm oxiclean solution for a half hour or so. Rinse the Mash tun with clean water. Scrub then drain the boil kettle, rinse and fill with a couple gallons of clean water, circulate through the pump, then drain everything and i'm done

Phew that was exhausting to type

I do the same typically. One thing to note this doesn't work well if you mill tight as you have to be able to turn the liquid over quickly in order to get the temp up in a reasonable amount of time. Cheers

 

[sicktght311]

Yeah with a good false bottom, good flow, and a patient sparging process, you shouldn’t have to mill fine to get good efficiency. I mill to .50 and use a good amount of rice hulls. Works great

 

[augiedoggy]

From a couple years experience, the mash really needs one good stirring a few minutes after underletting to equalize the top-to-bottom temperature. It'll totally throw off meaningful temperature readings otherwise.

fwiw, wrt equipment thermal mass I run three Blichmann 20g G1 kettles and have my BeerSmith3 profile pretty tight. Looking at my brew logs from the last few 10 gallon batches, I've been using mid-160°F strike water with the MLT sitting at ~80°F and the grain at ~68°F to hit 152°F - after that one good stir, and just before starting recirculation...

Cheers!

I agree here... Take my example with a grain of salt because im brewing on a 3bbl 3 vessel system these days but we tried underletting multiple times and what happens is as the water enters the bottom of the MT the grain immediately starts cooling it and it gets cooler and cooler as it travels upwards through all this cool grain towards the top of the mash.. then as it continues to fill the grain becomes warmer and warmer resulting in water at the bottom thats much much closer to strike water temps. so you end up with a huge difference in temp from top to bottom and in larger systems that takes a long time to correct and even out. In my system it takes well over 15 minutes for re circulation at a measured 5gpm with a rims to correct this and by that time much of the mash is already converted.

BTW we have to heat our strike water to almost 20 degrees above our desired mash temp and we still end up a few degrees low each brew day.. at home I had to heat to 163 for a 152 mashin for 10 gallons

 

[augiedoggy]

Yeah with a good false bottom, good flow, and a patient sparging process, you shouldn’t have to mill fine to get good efficiency. I mill to .50 and use a good amount of rice hulls. Works great

Crush size DOES have a direct relationship to efficiency. This is a pretty easily proven fact here. Even with a great false bottom and great flow , You will always get more efficiency from more starch surface area to be converted and smaller particles desolve more effectively as well as faster. You can only get that from a finer crush.
It really depends on what you consider "good efficiency" Everything a tradeoff unless you design the hardware to overcome the difficulties created with a finer crush. for 5 or 10 gallon brews and the difference from 75% and 90% your only talking a few dollars extra in grain every brew day..

As far as flow rate? it depends on the herms coil.. size, how much coil surface area and of course crush.. recirculating too quickly will promote channeling and lower efficiency as well as uneven mash temps which may cause a temp probe in the MT to not track temps correctly.

I think a great tool thats not utilized by many is a flow meter like this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Dwyer-...792842?hash=item23941d230a:g:m2kAAOSwY~laH~qf


That actually shows flow rate... With this you can dial in consistency as well as see what type of flow rates you can get away with without channeling. your also not guessing with a ball valve as the flow changes from mash to mash depending on size and consistency due to grainbill.

 

[kevin58]

Thank you for the insights. I have been using my new system since March of this year and have been working on processes but hitting mash temps and how to manipulate valves and pumps for proper flow has been a sticking point. This helps so thanks again.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Crush size DOES have a direct relationship to efficiency. This is a pretty easily proven fact here. Even with a great false bottom and great flow , You will always get more efficiency from more starch surface area to be converted and smaller particles desolve more effectively as well as faster. You can only get that from a finer crush.
It really depends on what you consider "good efficiency" Everything a tradeoff unless you design the hardware to overcome the difficulties created with a finer crush. for 5 or 10 gallon brews and the difference from 75% and 90% your only talking a few dollars extra in grain every brew day..

As far as flow rate? it depends on the herms coil.. size, how much coil surface area and of course crush.. recirculating too quickly will promote channeling and lower efficiency as well as uneven mash temps which may cause a temp probe in the MT to not track temps correctly.

I think a great tool thats not utilized by many is a flow meter like this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Dwyer-...792842?hash=item23941d230a:g:m2kAAOSwY~laH~qf


That actually shows flow rate... With this you can dial in consistency as well as see what type of flow rates you can get away with without channeling. your also not guessing with a ball valve as the flow changes from mash to mash depending on size and consistency due to grainbill.

For whatever reason myself and majority of the Kal clone users out there haven't actually found a difference in efficiency though. I tried as tight as .030 and with a very slow flow rate and .050 with a faster flow and my numbers were literally exactly the same. The only difference is that if we mill tightly it's takes forever to increase the mash temp because of how slow the mash needs to turned over in order to avoid channeling or a compacted bed. Moral of the story is if your using a *herms* Kal clone type setup most find that following kals brew day recommended process works best with this specific setup. There's literally 100s of people doing it with great results and great efficiency. Cheers

 

[augiedoggy]

For whatever reason myself and majority of the Kal clone users out there haven't actually found a difference in efficiency though. I tried as tight as .030 and with a very slow flow rate and .050 with a faster flow and my numbers were literally exactly the same. The only difference is that if we mill tightly it's takes forever to increase the mash temp because of how slow the mash needs to turned over in order to avoid channeling or a compacted bed. Moral of the story is if your using a *herms* Kal clone type setup most find that following kals brew day recommended process works best with this specific setup. There's literally 100s of people doing it with great results and great efficiency. Cheers

ok but your saying is kinda vague and relative I agree that everyone seems to do whatever works well for them due to differences (or variences) in what they are actually doing this is why real comparisions and testing is always done in a controlled enviroment and not by 100s or different people all with varying understanding and ways of implementing said processes .. you say all the kal users get great efficiency, what is that efficiency? because im pretty sure I read it mentioned here many are only in the 70s and if they were all happy threads like this wouldnt exist right? I mean the spike system is the same process as kals.

For some reason I and maybe Mad king seem to be the minorities here by not recirulating at wide open on the pump despite there being many threads making it fairly common knowledge that doing so can cause channeling and stuck flow and adjusting the mill to provide a course crush will hurt efficiency.

I know I sound like a broken record but I KNOW from 6 years of use on the same system that consistent brewhouse efficiency in the 90s is very obtainable as well as not needed rice hulls at all to do it with a finer crush, and lower pump flow and I have no issues whatsoever step mashing or holding mash temp so again there has to be another factor here being missed. Perhaps its because im the only one who has a flow meter and actually knows how quickly I'm recirculating? I use a pwm know for flow control but I know for the bigger 5-7gpm pumps the slightest adjustment on a valve makes a huge difference maybe many including yourself who tried it were just outside of the sweet spot on flow I dont know. what I do know is what is working very well for me does not work for you and its not the pyhsics that are different here its the process implementation or perhaps some trivial difference between the equipment like my rims design IDK.

In any case I truley dont want to argue about it, with you or anyone. I'm just trying to make it clear it works (for me at least) very well. and 91% tells me better than most who do what your doing.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I'm one of those folks that never recirculates at the full pump capabilities (twin March 815PL-C @60hz, so ~8gpm given the ~3' worst-case lift), instead sticking within 2-3gpm.

But I crush barley at .032 and wheat at .025 and get excellent mash efficiency without the risk of a slammed bed...

Cheers!

 

[kevin58]

To make it clear and perhaps put this back on the tracks... my question about flow was not about crush and was not about channeling.

I wanted to know how fast or slow to recirculate the mash for best heat transfer through the HERMS coil. And similarly, how fast or slow folks run a fly sparge.

I admit I left my question fairly open but that was to avoid answers getting into the weeds on subjects I didn't intend to get into. What would really help the most is exactly what the subject line says and what @sicktght311 offered...

An outline of your process using 3 vessel eHERMS; as it relates to strike/mashing and flow rates while recirculating and sparging.

 

[muhteeus]

To make it clear and perhaps put this back on the tracks... my question about flow was not about crush and was not about channeling.

I wanted to know how fast or slow to recirculate the mash for best heat transfer through the HERMS coil. And similarly, how fast or slow folks run a fly sparge.

I admit I left my question fairly open but that was to avoid answers getting into the weeds on subjects I didn't intend to get into. What would really help the most is exactly what the subject line says and what @sicktght311 offered...

An outline of your process using 3 vessel eHERMS; as it relates to strike/mashing and flow rates while recirculating and sparging.

This should be the same as your chiller: Full flow. The only caveats would be your compaction and or re-circulation method (how the water is impacting the surface of your MT). Kal references this in TEB site.

I would assume this requires adequate recirculation and turbulence in the HLT to provide a consistent temperature across the thermal mass.

Sparge seems to be a matter of trial and error, I just prefer to do it slow and steady over 30-45 min. Other brewers swear by vorlauf and then wide open. Try both and take notes.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]I wanted to know how fast or slow to recirculate the mash for best heat transfer through the HERMS coil. And similarly, how fast or slow folks run a fly sparge.[...]

I'll advocate for recirculating at the highest rate you can live with, as - assuming there is no channeling happening - the higher the flow rate the lower the temperature differential between HEX and mash temperature. I typically run my HLT +1.5°F over the target mash temperature, which is pretty low for uninsulated 20g SS kettles. If I ran the recirculation slower I'd have to raise the HLT to account for the system-wide thermal losses. I prefer keeping the HEX close to mash temperature to not upset the saccharification enzymes.

At the other end, at least for my process, the slower the run-off the better the fly-sparge performance, as determined by end of sparge SG.

Full process:

- I heat the measured strike water volume in my BK while the HLT is coming up to temperature. Strike temp calculated via BS3 using grain temperature at center of buckets and an averaged IR gun reading for the MLT/FB combo.

- I underlet the full strike volume at around 6gpm, wait a couple of minutes, then gently stir the mash just enough to equalize the temperature top to bottom. There's no dough-balls with underletting so the stir is quite brief.

- Five minutes from strike I fire up the recirculation and slowly raise the flow rate 'til the MLT sight gauge shows an incipient problem and back off a tad, usually ending up a bit over 2 gpm to start. I'll keep sneaking up the rate over the next ~10 minutes and end up closer to 3 gpm.

- I do a full mash-out at the end - my system can comfortably gain 1°F per minute, double that if I open the patio door behind my rig to let the heat out and crank up the burners. By that time I've typically gained another half gallon per minute as conversion completes and everything is thinning out at temperature.

- I run-off at 1 quart per minute, and start by draining wort 'til the top of the grain bed is just exposed. I stop the run-off briefly, turn on the sparge flow, let the MLT gently refill back to the recirculation level (~1.5" above the bed), then restart the run-off with my autosparge valve engaged, and let it run - still at 1 quart per minute - 'til I hit my pre-boil volume...

Cheers!

 

[Blazinlow86]

ok but your saying is kinda vague and relative I agree that everyone seems to do whatever works well for them due to differences (or variences) in what they are actually doing this is why real comparisions and testing is always done in a controlled enviroment and not by 100s or different people all with varying understanding and ways of implementing said processes .. you say all the kal users get great efficiency, what is that efficiency? because im pretty sure I read it mentioned here many are only in the 70s and if they were all happy threads like this wouldnt exist right? I mean the spike system is the same process as kals.

For some reason I and maybe Mad king seem to be the minorities here by not recirulating at wide open on the pump despite there being many threads making it fairly common knowledge that doing so can cause channeling and stuck flow and adjusting the mill to provide a course crush will hurt efficiency.

I know I sound like a broken record but I KNOW from 6 years of use on the same system that consistent brewhouse efficiency in the 90s is very obtainable as well as not needed rice hulls at all to do it with a finer crush, and lower pump flow and I have no issues whatsoever step mashing or holding mash temp so again there has to be another factor here being missed. Perhaps its because im the only one who has a flow meter and actually knows how quickly I'm recirculating? I use a pwm know for flow control but I know for the bigger 5-7gpm pumps the slightest adjustment on a valve makes a huge difference maybe many including yourself who tried it were just outside of the sweet spot on flow I dont know. what I do know is what is working very well for me does not work for you and its not the pyhsics that are different here its the process implementation or perhaps some trivial difference between the equipment like my rims design IDK.

In any case I truley dont want to argue about it, with you or anyone. I'm just trying to make it clear it works (for me at least) very well. and 91% tells me better than most who do what your doing.

Some user's get great efficiency and others get decent efficiency depending on their specific setup but that's not really the point I was trying to make. If a brewers specific setups efficiency doesn't improve by milling tighter but they loose all there heating performance what's the benefit. At least for me personally I built my herms system for the better/easier heating control and not to set a efficiency record. If I mill tightly to try to get a few points better efficiency which I don't and it therefore takes 60 minutes to raise to mashout rather than 15 minutes it defeats the whole reason for going with a Herms setup in the first place imho. I seem to remember you said you tried a herms setup before your rims and had the the same issues I've described so let's just agree to disagree on the best way to use a herms. I don't want to get into a big debate. Cheers

 

[kevin58]

Thank you @day_trippr. That was extremely helpful.