What Exactly Is Happening Here?

[Microphobik]

Hi all,

I've been having a recurring issue with my beers and am wondering if anyone has ever experienced this before, or knows what might be happening here...

I am an all grain brewer who kegs. I feel pretty confident that my process is solid. I temp control, ferment on the cool side (but within stated range of the strain) and slowly raise a few degrees to do a diacetyl rest on all my beers. Then I let them sit for an additional week or so before cold crashing and then kegging. I don't do a closed transfer but I do purge after adding the beer to the keg.

On almost every beer I have the same thing happen. They taste great for the first week or so. very clean and I'm really proud of what I have. But then I start to notice an almost dirty dish rag, and sometimes a slight honey flavor emerge. Not so bad that it's not drinkable, but bad enough that the off flavor stands out to me against commercial beers and I'm not so proud of the beers.

My assumption is always that it's oxidation (although I fail to see where it would be coming from) and I get depressed and decide to dump the beer and try again with something new. But before I dump I always bottle off a good number of beers "just in case". I bottle with a rubber-stopper and bottling wand attached to a growler filler to make one of those quicky homemade counter pressure fillers.

But here's the thing... In every single instance when I try those bottled beers a month later or so, all of the off flavors are gone. The beer is suddenly very clean again and the beers can hold their own against commercial beers. I have a Scottish 60/- on tap at the moment that is doing the same thing. To test this, I bottled off half a dozen bottles. Just a week later there is a huge improvement in the flavor of the bottles, while the kegged beer still has those off flavors.

What could be causing my beers to be good, then bad, and then good again?

My assumption has always been that this was oxidation related, but if it was then I wouldn't think that the additional oxygen that is inevitably finding it's way in through the bottling process would make things even worse rather than better. I'm very confused and also frustrated that I find myself embarrassed to share my beers unless they are either very fresh or bottled and aged.

Has anyone ever experienced this before? If it means anything, I have noticed this the most in my lower gravity malty beers using Marris Otter, but mostly because that is what I brew.

Any ideas?

 

[ericbw]

How often do you break your kegs down and really clean them? Posts off. poppets out, q-tip the inside of the posts, clean the disconnects, including inside, run cleanser in the liquid lines and let it sit, q-tip up the faucet, etc. Maybe there is something in there that is getting nasty, but it dissipates over time (while in the bottles)? Seems weird, but maybe?

Or change the name to Dishrag Honey Mild.

 

[MaddBaggins]

How often do you break your kegs down and really clean them? Posts off. poppets out, q-tip the inside of the posts, clean the disconnects, including inside, run cleanser in the liquid lines and let it sit, q-tip up the faucet, etc. Maybe there is something in there that is getting nasty, but it dissipates over time (while in the bottles)? Seems weird, but maybe?

Or change the name to Dishrag Honey Mild.

I would look at all these things first. Might be that simple.
I push hot PBW, then hot water, then warm StarSan thru my line every other keg or anytime I don't have another keg to put up immediately. I also change the beer line about once a year. I PBW, rinse, StarSan my kegs after every other beer.
I've never Co2 purged my equipment before transfer and have never had oxidation issues.

 

[Microphobik]

Hey guys, I should have mentioned that. Because of the problems I have mentioned I've been insanely anal about everything. I give everything a good scrub and rinse, then a hot PBW soak over night, then a star san flush through the whole thing with every beer.

Before this last brew I replaced the lines and got new taps (Perlick 650ss) and even a new keg. Because this was the first beer with the new taps I disassembled them and soaked everything. Still got the issue.

I'm a beer writer and have judged homebrew competitions, etc, and I like to think I have a decent palette. I should point out that no one else has ever commented on this, so it's subtle enough not to offend a non-beer-nerd. But it's definitely there.

It's a flavor that seems tied into the malt somehow. It's almost like that malty Marris Otter thing just turns a bit dirty for a while. I sort of wondered if it was some kind of an aging process of the malt, and that maybe by bottling it up and storing it at room temperature I was just speeding up the process. I've never kept one of these beers in my kegs more than two months to see if it ever goes away on the keg over time. But I don't know.

So no one has ever had this good, then bad, then good again thing happen? very frustrating to have spent more than a grand on a keezer build, only to be thinking about going back to bottle conditioning.

 

[Sailingeric]

How long before you dump it.. It might just be aging. I am new to keging but my bottled beer seemed to be good a couple weeks after bottling, then a couple weeks slightly off and then way better after that. I stopped noticing that once I got a pipeline going and could let beers age some.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Rather than dumping a keg, have you tried removing it from your serving fridge, letting it age for a week or two at room temp, then putting it back on tap? Doesn't sound like an infection or oxidation to me, since it ages out rather quickly.

What is your fermentation process? Do you do primary only? Secondary? How long in the fermenter(s) before transferring to a keg? How long does the beer sit in the keg before you put it on tap?

 

[Microphobik]

How long before you dump it.. It might just be aging. I am new to keging but my bottled beer seemed to be good a couple weeks after bottling, then a couple weeks slightly off and then way better after that. I stopped noticing that once I got a pipeline going and could let beers age some.

I dump it when I hit the point where I don't want to drink it because the off flavor is bothering me and have a chance to brew something new. That's usually one or two months after kegging. I've had the same thing you describe with bottled beers, where I it just gets better and better for a few weeks, but the fact that my kegged beers start off as nice and clean, and then bad, and then good again really throws me.

 

[Microphobik]

Rather than dumping a keg, have you tried removing it from your serving fridge, letting it age for a week or two at room temp, then putting it back on tap? Doesn't sound like an infection or oxidation to me, since it ages out rather quickly.

What is your fermentation process? Do you do primary only? Secondary? How long in the fermenter(s) before transferring to a keg? How long does the beer sit in the keg before you put it on tap?

I haven't tried that, but I've been wondering about that as well. I recently pulled a barleywine off the taps that was really young and pretty solventy due to too fast of a fermentation, and I kept it at room temperature for about a month. Then I threw it back on the taps and it was dramatically improved. It went from undrinkable to pretty decent. That was the only beer that didn't have that dish-rag quality I mentioned. I assume that was because it was overwhelmed by all the other flavors and higher bittering levels.

But it seems like a pain to need to be moving beers on and off the taps all the time like that. I'm hoping to figure this out so I can just have some beer on tap like everyone else

Fermentation time varies depending on gravity, but on a typical beer I'll ferment around 68 degrees and once the bubbles start to slow down a tad I will start ramping the temp up by a degree every day until I hit 71 or so. By around a week everything is pretty done, and I'll give it another week to sit. No secondary. Then I cold crash and keg. I purge the head space a few times and then give it 30 PSI for 48 hours, then drop to serving pressure of about 10 PSI depending on style. I am serving from 48 hours after kegging on. When the beer is fresh or has sat for a few days I usually pour and toss the first each or so of a glass just to get rid of the beer that has say in the lines. I've been doing that purely because it seems to have more of that flavor that I don't like, but I think it's because the lines are higher up in the keezer and a bit warmer. Its not dramatic.

Sometimes I shake the beer on pressure to force carb a bit faster, sometimes not.

Any additional thoughts?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Ive experienced a bad taste believe it or not from co2, after sitting on it for 2 weeks, the same beer kegged but bottled like yours tasted fine later, I saw somewhere where someone had the same issues, could be a combination of dirty kegs or co2 but Ive had issues like you recently

 

[joshesmusica]

I don't have experience in this. But simply an idea.

Maybe for the next one, try a keg refermentation. You will use about half the amount of priming sugar as you would when bottling. Let it sit for two weeks at room temp. Then hook it up.

I agree that it can't be oxidation or infection if it's getting better when bottling. It could very well be your co2, but I have to doubt that a bit, as the co2 is still being transferred over to the bottle.

After transferring to the bottles, are you letting those warm up, and then chilling them again? Or straight into the fridge after the transfer?

The only reason I could see it being tied to the malt is if you were dealing with bad malt. But then I don't really see why that would improve after transferring it to the bottles.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Your ferm to keg process sounds pretty much like what I do. What about your CO2? Do you source it from the same place every time? Have you tried another source? Where did you get your tank? Did you buy it new or used? Also, have you tried "set and forget" carbing, rather than burst? The flavor you're tasting might be carbonic acid from the rapid carb and maybe you're just super sensitive to it. I don't know, I'm just throwing s*** out there to see if anything sticks.

 

[GCPHomebrew]

Carbonic acid has my vote. I stopped force carving. Put it at serving psi and don't touch it for 2 weeks and see if the taste is there.

 

[Microphobik]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll try to respond to everyone in one thread rather than individual quote/responses.

That's interesting that others have had bad experiences on the C02. I don't think it;s the kegs purely because it;s happened on different kegs and I really clean the crap out of them. I wouldn't know what else to do to get them any cleaner.

But I have wondered about the quality of CO2. I do source it from the same place. I live in a pretty remote area of New Zealand and I get it from someone who fills tanks for FireWatch. But he assures me it;s food grade CO2 and I have seen other homebrew shops recommend FireWatch before. But who knows. As for the cylinder, I bought it from a homebrew shop and that's all I know. I'd like to think they wouldn't have sold me something that wasn't fit for use in homebrew but anything is possible. They are $350 out here or I;d grab another one to try and rule out the tank. But the fact that a number of you said CO2 does have me wondering...

Could it be that the off flavor is degassing a bit into the newly introduced oxygen space in the neck of the bottle and making a big difference? The only thing about pinning it on the CO2 is that wouldn't it start off tasting bad as well? All of my beers have a really clean first week or so before the taste starts to creep in.

The point about being sensitive to it resonates though. I was recently judging a homebrew competition and tasted a very similar flavor in another beer. I was the only one to give the beer low marks, no one else seemed to notice anything off.

The only reason I mention the malt is because it's a flavor that is in the ball park of that malty Marris Ottter and Golden Promise flavor, but instead of malty fresh, it's like it picks up a musty quality. Anyway...

It's a big mystery. I think on the next batch I'll need to bottle condition a few before carbing up the keg and see how each develops. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to offer suggestions.

 

[joshesmusica]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll try to respond to everyone in one thread rather than individual quote/responses.

That's interesting that others have had bad experiences on the C02. I don't think it;s the kegs purely because it;s happened on different kegs and I really clean the crap out of them. I wouldn't know what else to do to get them any cleaner.

But I have wondered about the quality of CO2. I do source it from the same place. I live in a pretty remote area of New Zealand and I get it from someone who fills tanks for FireWatch. But he assures me it;s food grade CO2 and I have seen other homebrew shops recommend FireWatch before. But who knows. As for the cylinder, I bought it from a homebrew shop and that's all I know. I'd like to think they wouldn't have sold me something that wasn't fit for use in homebrew but anything is possible. They are $350 out here or I;d grab another one to try and rule out the tank. But the fact that a number of you said CO2 does have me wondering...

Could it be that the off flavor is degassing a bit into the newly introduced oxygen space in the neck of the bottle and making a big difference? The only thing about pinning it on the CO2 is that wouldn't it start off tasting bad as well? All of my beers have a really clean first week or so before the taste starts to creep in.

The point about being sensitive to it resonates though. I was recently judging a homebrew competition and tasted a very similar flavor in another beer. I was the only one to give the beer low marks, no one else seemed to notice anything off.

The only reason I mention the malt is because it's a flavor that is in the ball park of that malty Marris Ottter and Golden Promise flavor, but instead of malty fresh, it's like it picks up a musty quality. Anyway...

It's a big mystery. I think on the next batch I'll need to bottle condition a few before carbing up the keg and see how each develops. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to offer suggestions.

Well now that I'm being forced into doing some reading about carbonic acid, I believe this could be the answer.

By forcing the co2 into solution, you're also creating a bunch of carbonic acid. Because of the fact that you're keeping it in a highly pressurized can, it is able to dissolve more co2 into solution than under normal air pressure, and therefore you're also ending up with way more carbonic acid, because those two will always reach an equilibrium in a liquid. When you're transferring it to the bottle, you're 1) likely losing a bit of the carbonation level than in the keg, and 2) allowing the liquid, and the dissolved co2, to be under less pressure, which means less dissolved co2 in the solution, which means less carbonic acid.

This all makes sense that this would be your problem, but doesn't quite explain why the off-flavor is presenting the way it is. Which makes me wonder, are you doing any kind of water adjustments in your mash? One thing I read said that an excess of base (which you would have possibly added to your mash if your water typically gets too acidic) would cause the excess of carbonic acid to react to form carbonate salts.

My logic goes as follows, your high pressure and fast force-carbonation methods creates an excess of carbonic acid, due to the equilibrium between the co2 and carbonic acid that I mentioned before. This gives you that nice crisp beer that you're talking about, because along with the co2 bubbles, the carbonic acid provides a bit of a "bite" on the nerves on your tongue. You haven't noticed the high amount of carbonate salts that were formed because of the high amount of carbonic acid to equalize the pH levels. But you're pouring from the keg (and especially if you degassed the keg before changing to serving pressure), which means there's less pressure in the headspace, which means less co2 in solution, and therefore less carbonic acid in solution.

But this is the part that I'm only making a wild guess about: The carbonic acid I know will "dissolve" back into co2 because of that equilibrium that I talked about. But I'm wondering if the carbonate salts remain at the same level and don't turn back into carbonic acid (and therefore co2, which gets released)? Anybody know the answer to that? If it was the case that the carbonate salts that were formed stayed the same level, but the carbonic acid decreases with the decrease of pressure, then the pH should effectively be going up. Which I would think could possibly cause the kind of stale flavor, because it doesn't have so much of the carbonic bite any longer. Possibly warming the beer back up would help the process of the carbonate salts turn back into carbonic acid in the bottle, and this is what's making those taste better?

Again, I'm just throwing a lot of theories out there, but couldn't find any studies to show what happens after an excess of carbonic acid is formed. BUT according to your description of the off-flavor, it just doesn't sound like that "carbonic bite." It could possibly be that you're used to high levels of carbonic acid (like if you're constantly drinking carbonated beverages), and therefore prefer a lower pH level in your beers. The other judges may not have noticed it if they're not really used to a bit more acidic beers.

TL;DR: I would highly suggest force-carbing it using the set-and-forget method to see if that helps. As no matter what happens after carbonic acid is created, by not using such high pressures of co2 at the beginning of carbonation, you will create less carbonic acid. Or you could try what I suggested, which is allowing the yeast to produce the carbonation for you, which will happen at an even slower rate than the set-and-forget method.

 

[d3track]

When you taste from the keg, are you just trying the first half-pint that has been sitting in the lines?

 

[joshesmusica]

I just had it all typed out showing the chemical reactions that would happen after discussing this whole thing with my wife who's currently in a chemistry class. I'm not going to type it all back out again. But, essentially IF you started out with quite a bit of bicarbonates in your beer, then it's possible that you ended up with quite a bit of base salts after the fast force carbonation method you're employing. You're ending up with an excess amount of carbonic acid because of the high pressure that you're force carbing at, which is what reacts with the high levels of bicarbonates which forms the high level of the base salts.

This reaction takes some time, which is why your pH balance is likely still pretty good in that first week. BUT then the pressure in the keg starts to go down, the amount of dissolved co2 starts to go down, and therefore the carbonic acid goes through the reverse reaction of changing into co2 and h2o, because carbonic acid and co2 will remain in equilibrium. So my theory is that you're losing a lot of that carbonic acid, but a lot of those base salts are remaining, and therefore it's driving your pH up. Those base salts would go through the reverse reaction toward carbonic acid again, but at such cold temperatures that reaction is happening very slowly.

In your bottled beers, you're warming them back up, which is allowing that reverse reaction happen at an incredibly faster rate, which is why they're tasting good again. They're back to a balanced pH level.

IF you currently have a keg that has some of this problematic beer in it, take the keg out and let it warm for a couple days (I'm not really sure how long the reaction will take, but my theory is that it's not gonna take long. But I'm sure a week would be more than enough time). Then chill it back down, check the pressure, and taste test. If my theory is right, then it will taste good again. If it still tastes like ****, then this reaction isn't what's happening to your beer.

If this solution works, then the solution for all future batches is to do the set-and-forget method for force-carbing, at the appropriate psi level. Or you could just add some priming sugar and let it carbonate naturally, which I'm sure also will only help the beer taste better.

 

[Microphobik]

When you taste from the keg, are you just trying the first half-pint that has been sitting in the lines?

No. I totally considered that and so I always toss the first inch or two of beer if it's been sitting in the lines for any amount of time. But I know what you mean. I do always taste it more in that first pour but I think that's purely because the lines are higher up in the keezer and are a bit warmer.

 

[Microphobik]

I just had it all typed out showing the chemical reactions that would happen after discussing this whole thing with my wife who's currently in a chemistry class. I'm not going to type it all back out again. But, essentially IF you started out with quite a bit of bicarbonates in your beer, then it's possible that you ended up with quite a bit of base salts after the fast force carbonation method you're employing. You're ending up with an excess amount of carbonic acid because of the high pressure that you're force carbing at, which is what reacts with the high levels of bicarbonates which forms the high level of the base salts.

This reaction takes some time, which is why your pH balance is likely still pretty good in that first week. BUT then the pressure in the keg starts to go down, the amount of dissolved co2 starts to go down, and therefore the carbonic acid goes through the reverse reaction of changing into co2 and h2o, because carbonic acid and co2 will remain in equilibrium. So my theory is that you're losing a lot of that carbonic acid, but a lot of those base salts are remaining, and therefore it's driving your pH up. Those base salts would go through the reverse reaction toward carbonic acid again, but at such cold temperatures that reaction is happening very slowly.

In your bottled beers, you're warming them back up, which is allowing that reverse reaction happen at an incredibly faster rate, which is why they're tasting good again. They're back to a balanced pH level.

IF you currently have a keg that has some of this problematic beer in it, take the keg out and let it warm for a couple days (I'm not really sure how long the reaction will take, but my theory is that it's not gonna take long. But I'm sure a week would be more than enough time). Then chill it back down, check the pressure, and taste test. If my theory is right, then it will taste good again. If it still tastes like ****, then this reaction isn't what's happening to your beer.

If this solution works, then the solution for all future batches is to do the set-and-forget method for force-carbing, at the appropriate psi level. Or you could just add some priming sugar and let it carbonate naturally, which I'm sure also will only help the beer taste better.

Thanks for taking all that time with your answers. I'll be honest, my brain can only follow about half of what you said, but I get the basic idea. Sounds like a solid guess. I'm pretty sure my palette is pretty attuned to the flavor contribution of carbonic acid and I don't taste anything that I would call a pronounced carbonic bite, but there are a couple of things that point to you possibly being on to something...

I don't add any treatments to my water. I use bottled spring water for my beers because in my area the water is catchment. I've heard bad things about using catchment water and I've heard that bottled water is typically pretty neutral. I thought by using bottled water I'd at least have a control. New Zealand soil is typically really low in calcium and I noticed that when I used to use spring water (from a different house) the beer would never clear. Since switching to bottled water it clears right up. However...

1. I once found a silver dollar size calcium-looking stone at the bottom of a keg that had been sitting at room temp for a few months with a bit of beer in it (waiting to be cleaned). I assumed it was some sort of calcium build up, but looking at pictures of carbonate salts, it seems possible that is what it was. I've never seen it again, but I've never left beer to sit in a keg like that since.

2. I have a barleywine going right now that has a sort of solventy/butterness. I put it on tap at just a month old, mostly to taste it as it aged. But it was like drinking bitter rocket fuel so I took it off and kept it at room temp for a month. I chalked it up to just being a young barleywine. I put it back on tap the other night and was like WOW!. It was crystal clear, with that beautiful sweet malt flavor you look for in a barleywine. Not perfect, but shockingly better. So I bottled a few and left it on tap. I just tasted it last night after posting and it's back to being more solventy than drinkable. Temp could have something to do with it, or perhaps the cold temp is pulling more of that CO2 back into solution?

I didn't mention it because I didn't want toy confuse things, but I also have an export stout on at the moment that is about 6.5%. It doesn't have that dish-rag thing, but it also has a slight solvent quality. But I fermented Nottingham cool, with a diacetyl rest and there shouldn't be any fusels in it. However I did not use Marris Otter in this, and in all the other beers I can think of that have had the dishrag-like off flavor, I was making lower gravity beers with Marris Otter. So I wonder if it's what you seem to be saying and it's the carbonic acid/salts interacting with different ingredients in different ways and causing negative flavor contributions. And maybe I'm mistaking carbonic acid in the stronger beers for a solvent flavor. I use a thermowell in my carboy with temp control, and if it's my process then I just about give up because I wouldn't even know what else to do. I am in no way being lazy with my brewing or sanitation.

The only thing that leaves me puzzled is that if it was related to the force carbing, I would think that this would be a more common issue. My understanding was that force carbing was more common than not. The method I use is what came with my original Copper Tun Keg kit. But I can certainly try the set and forget it method on the next beer.

I'm going to enter these beers in the upcoming New Zealand National Homebrew Comp and see if the judges pick up on the same thing that I get. These off flavors are not enough to have received any remarks from friends, but they also really stand out to me as being less than professional. I'm really striving to make professional level beer and just can't seem to dial in my beers that go on tap. It will be interesting to see if it's something that I'm just sensitive to, or if the judges get it as well. I'll post in a few weeks when those results come in if there is anything interesting to report.

Thanks again for taking the time with your answer.

 

[joshesmusica]

Thanks for taking all that time with your answers. I'll be honest, my brain can only follow about half of what you said, but I get the basic idea. Sounds like a solid guess. I'm pretty sure my palette is pretty attuned to the flavor contribution of carbonic acid and I don't taste anything that I would call a pronounced carbonic bite, but there are a couple of things that point to you possibly being on to something...



I don't add any treatments to my water. I use bottled spring water for my beers because in my area the water is catchment. I've heard bad things about using catchment water and I've heard that bottled water is typically pretty neutral. I thought by using bottled water I'd at least have a control. New Zealand soil is typically really low in calcium and I noticed that when I used to use spring water (from a different house) the beer would never clear. Since switching to bottled water it clears right up. However...



1. I once found a silver dollar size calcium-looking stone at the bottom of a keg that had been sitting at room temp for a few months with a bit of beer in it (waiting to be cleaned). I assumed it was some sort of calcium build up, but looking at pictures of carbonate salts, it seems possible that is what it was. I've never seen it again, but I've never left beer to sit in a keg like that since.



2. I have a barleywine going right now that has a sort of solventy/butterness. I put it on tap at just a month old, mostly to taste it as it aged. But it was like drinking bitter rocket fuel so I took it off and kept it at room temp for a month. I chalked it up to just being a young barleywine. I put it back on tap the other night and was like WOW!. It was crystal clear, with that beautiful sweet malt flavor you look for in a barleywine. Not perfect, but shockingly better. So I bottled a few and left it on tap. I just tasted it last night after posting and it's back to being more solventy than drinkable. Temp could have something to do with it, or perhaps the cold temp is pulling more of that CO2 back into solution?



I didn't mention it because I didn't want toy confuse things, but I also have an export stout on at the moment that is about 6.5%. It doesn't have that dish-rag thing, but it also has a slight solvent quality. But I fermented Nottingham cool, with a diacetyl rest and there shouldn't be any fusels in it. However I did not use Marris Otter in this, and in all the other beers I can think of that have had the dishrag-like off flavor, I was making lower gravity beers with Marris Otter. So I wonder if it's what you seem to be saying and it's the carbonic acid/salts interacting with different ingredients in different ways and causing negative flavor contributions. And maybe I'm mistaking carbonic acid in the stronger beers for a solvent flavor. I use a thermowell in my carboy with temp control, and if it's my process then I just about give up because I wouldn't even know what else to do. I am in no way being lazy with my brewing or sanitation.



The only thing that leaves me puzzled is that if it was related to the force carbing, I would think that this would be a more common issue. My understanding was that force carbing was more common than not. The method I use is what came with my original Copper Tun Keg kit. But I can certainly try the set and forget it method on the next beer.



I'm going to enter these beers in the upcoming New Zealand National Homebrew Comp and see if the judges pick up on the same thing that I get. These off flavors are not enough to have received any remarks from friends, but they also really stand out to me as being less than professional. I'm really striving to make professional level beer and just can't seem to dial in my beers that go on tap. It will be interesting to see if it's something that I'm just sensitive to, or if the judges get it as well. I'll post in a few weeks when those results come in if there is anything interesting to report.



Thanks again for taking the time with your answer.

Just a couple things in response:

1) just from what you say, this seems to be something that only you are sensitive to. But it will still be interesting to see what the feedback is from the judges.

2) bottled spring water has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. The only thing I think you can really be sure of is that it's free of chlorine/chloramines. Other than that, it gives you absolutely no indication of the minerals present in what amounts. You might be able to find out by emailing the company. If not I would suggest switching to RO water.

 

[Microphobik]

Just a couple things in response:

1) just from what you say, this seems to be something that only you are sensitive to. But it will still be interesting to see what the feedback is from the judges.

2) bottled spring water has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. The only thing I think you can really be sure of is that it's free of chlorine/chloramines. Other than that, it gives you absolutely no indication of the minerals present in what amounts. You might be able to find out by emailing the company. If not I would suggest switching to RO water.

Thanks. I personally think that others would be sensitive to it and it's just that the people who have sampled my beers so far are friends and not really craft beer geeks, so they don't know what to look for. But it will definitely be interesting to see what the judges say. I'm sort of expecting to hear "oxidation", but we'll see. And that's only if the flavor has not completely disappeared by the time they get the beers. I've saved a few bottles so I can sample at they same time they do.

And I totally understand that spring water is completely varied, but i figure that it gives me a consistent source and I can always vary recipes based on results. I just like the idea of having a control that is likely fairly neutral. I have thought about RO, but they don't sell it anywhere in my area and Id have to get a filter set up for it. Perhaps I will at some point.

Thanks again.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I have thought about RO, but they don't sell it anywhere in my area and Id have to get a filter set up for it.

Distilled water would work too. Like RO, distilled is essentially a blank slate.

 

[Microphobik]

Distilled water would work too. Like RO, distilled is essentially a blank slate.

Yeah, thanks. Believe or not, they don't sell that here either. At least in my area. I suppose I could make it, but time is always the thing that is in short supply. I appreciate the idea though.

 

[joshesmusica]

Thanks. I personally think that others would be sensitive to it and it's just that the people who have sampled my beers so far are friends and not really craft beer geeks, so they don't know what to look for. But it will definitely be interesting to see what the judges say. I'm sort of expecting to hear "oxidation", but we'll see. And that's only if the flavor has not completely disappeared by the time they get the beers. I've saved a few bottles so I can sample at they same time they do.



And I totally understand that spring water is completely varied, but i figure that it gives me a consistent source and I can always vary recipes based on results. I just like the idea of having a control that is likely fairly neutral. I have thought about RO, but they don't sell it anywhere in my area and Id have to get a filter set up for it. Perhaps I will at some point.



Thanks again.

Yeah, but I'm not even really sure how consistent that water would be. If they are truly getting it from a spring, then even the mineral content in that spring would likely vary by season. I would say at the very least get a report from the company.

Either way, just try the set and forget method on the next batch, and then we can go from there if it didn't work. (Which if it doesn't work the next guess would maybe be the source of the co2. Then the recommendation would be natural carbonation.)

 

[CCBsean]

I had the same issue a few years back with a soapy flavor that also went away in a few months. At first I thought the flavor was was going away with time but it was still present in certain bottles/kegs. I cut back a little bit on the sanitizer and haven't had this problem since. Even if it's not present right away, certain unwanted phenols will be produced that give flavors like you mentioned due to too much residual sanitizer.
My next guess would be carbonic acid or a dirty keg stem?

Cheers man
Good luck!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

actually if you smell sanitizer strait it smells musty, thats a good thing to think about

 

[BobBailey]

I think you answered your own question. If the beers are great after aging in bottles I would guess that you're just getting the green beer flavor. I find that my beers generally taste much better near the end of the keg. I too drink many of them too early. I went to a keezer that holds 4 kegs instead of 2 a while back; still with 2 faucets. Now I can have 2 kegs carbed up and well conditioned before serving. Unless I get behind in brewing my beers taste much better now.

 

[joshesmusica]

I think you answered your own question. If the beers are great after aging in bottles I would guess that you're just getting the green beer flavor. I find that my beers generally taste much better near the end of the keg. I too drink many of them too early. I went to a keezer that holds 4 kegs instead of 2 a while back; still with 2 faucets. Now I can have 2 kegs carbed up and well conditioned before serving. Unless I get behind in brewing my beers taste much better now.

He let one sit for two months, and the flavor never went away. I don't think that's green beer anymore.

 

[BobBailey]

He let one sit for two months, and the flavor never went away. I don't think that's green beer anymore.

Guess you missed this in the OP:
But here's the thing... In every single instance when I try those bottled beers a month later or so, all of the off flavors are gone. The beer is suddenly very clean again and the beers can hold their own against commercial beers.

 

[joshesmusica]

I dump it when I hit the point where I don't want to drink it because the off flavor is bothering me and have a chance to brew something new. That's usually one or two months after kegging. I've had the same thing you describe with bottled beers, where I it just gets better and better for a few weeks, but the fact that my kegged beers start off as nice and clean, and then bad, and then good again really throws me.

I haven't tried that, but I've been wondering about that as well. I recently pulled a barleywine off the taps that was really young and pretty solventy due to too fast of a fermentation, and I kept it at room temperature for about a month. Then I threw it back on the taps and it was dramatically improved. It went from undrinkable to pretty decent. That was the only beer that didn't have that dish-rag quality I mentioned. I assume that was because it was overwhelmed by all the other flavors and higher bittering levels.

But it seems like a pain to need to be moving beers on and off the taps all the time like that. I'm hoping to figure this out so I can just have some beer on tap like everyone else

Fermentation time varies depending on gravity, but on a typical beer I'll ferment around 68 degrees and once the bubbles start to slow down a tad I will start ramping the temp up by a degree every day until I hit 71 or so. By around a week everything is pretty done, and I'll give it another week to sit. No secondary. Then I cold crash and keg. I purge the head space a few times and then give it 30 PSI for 48 hours, then drop to serving pressure of about 10 PSI depending on style. I am serving from 48 hours after kegging on. When the beer is fresh or has sat for a few days I usually pour and toss the first each or so of a glass just to get rid of the beer that has say in the lines. I've been doing that purely because it seems to have more of that flavor that I don't like, but I think it's because the lines are higher up in the keezer and a bit warmer. Its not dramatic.

Sometimes I shake the beer on pressure to force carb a bit faster, sometimes not.

Any additional thoughts?

Guess you missed this in the OP:
But here's the thing... In every single instance when I try those bottled beers a month later or so, all of the off flavors are gone. The beer is suddenly very clean again and the beers can hold their own against commercial beers.

Well yeah sure, but then there's this whole thread that developed after the first post.... Two weeks primary, and then 1-2 months in the keg is not a green beer. Hell I know plenty of people enjoying all kinds of styles by 3 weeks after the brew day if they're kegging. This is coming from some very respectable people around the community, people who made that top 100 recipes list. So I really don't think this is the OP's problem.

 

[jddevinn]

That's interesting that others have had bad experiences on the C02. I don't think it;s the kegs purely because it;s happened on different kegs and I really clean the crap out of them. I wouldn't know what else to do to get them any cleaner.

But I have wondered about the quality of CO2. I do source it from the same place. I live in a pretty remote area of New Zealand and I get it from someone who fills tanks for FireWatch. But he assures me it;s food grade CO2 and I have seen other homebrew shops recommend FireWatch before. But who knows. As for the cylinder, I bought it from a homebrew shop and that's all I know. I'd like to think they wouldn't have sold me something that wasn't fit for use in homebrew but anything is possible. They are $350 out here or I;d grab another one to try and rule out the tank. But the fact that a number of you said CO2 does have me wondering...

If you still think this may be CO2 quality related try filling a keg up with RO/distilled water and force carbing it to make soda water. See if the off flavor is present in the water.

I usually use the "shaking" for carb method. The kegs do taste "green" when imitatively sampled, I tend to try to have enough of a pipe line to put the force carbed kegs into a conditioning fridge for a week or two.

 

[BobBailey]

Well yeah sure, but then there's this whole thread that developed after the first post.... Two weeks primary, and then 1-2 months in the keg is not a green beer. Hell I know plenty of people enjoying all kinds of styles by 3 weeks after the brew day if they're kegging. This is coming from some very respectable people around the community, people who made that top 100 recipes list. So I really don't think this is the OP's problem.

I agree. I only read the OP and not the whole thread. I stand corrected.

 

[oceans11_gt]

I think I run in to this exact issue with my beers as well!! When I taste the beer before kegging and carbonation, just straight from the fermenter, its usually fantastic and I'm excited for when it's cold and carb'd. However after force carbonating, I find that it develops a dish-raggy twang that I attribute to oxidation, some sort of infection, or just something I can't put my finger on.

However, when I bring beers to my homebrew club meetings, no one tastes what I do. (At least they say they don't, VERY frustrating) OP do you find that this off flavor is more pronounced with malty or darker beers? I have found that every time I make a stout or porter I eventually get disgusted with it and dump it. My 80 Schilling Scottish it was there, but to less of a degree. First time I made my Wee Heavy I bottle conditioned and it was fantastic. I made it again and kegged, had the flavor and hated it. If I make a light, or hoppy beer there's almost no off flavor.

Up until this point, I haven't been messing with water profile. I think my tap water may be a big part of the issue. From now on, I am going to start with RO water and add salts to build the correct profile for whatever beer I am making and see if the problem persists.

 

[TheMadKing]

My money is on age. I don't know what your fermentation schedule looks like, but it sounds like you're not giving your beers enough time at warm temps to work out the kinks. After fermentation is complete (as demonstrated by constant gravity readings) I always give my beers at least another week in the primary before racking them to a keg. I also charge them up to 30 PSI and let them sit at room temp for 4 days, bleed off the pressure, set them at serving pressure and then chill them (turning up gas pressure as needed to compensate for the temp drop).

I really think you should give bulk aging in the kegs or a secondary a shot.

 

[Microphobik]

I think I run in to this exact issue with my beers as well!! When I taste the beer before kegging and carbonation, just straight from the fermenter, its usually fantastic and I'm excited for when it's cold and carb'd. However after force carbonating, I find that it develops a dish-raggy twang that I attribute to oxidation, some sort of infection, or just something I can't put my finger on.

However, when I bring beers to my homebrew club meetings, no one tastes what I do. (At least they say they don't, VERY frustrating) OP do you find that this off flavor is more pronounced with malty or darker beers? I have found that every time I make a stout or porter I eventually get disgusted with it and dump it. My 80 Schilling Scottish it was there, but to less of a degree. First time I made my Wee Heavy I bottle conditioned and it was fantastic. I made it again and kegged, had the flavor and hated it. If I make a light, or hoppy beer there's almost no off flavor.

Up until this point, I haven't been messing with water profile. I think my tap water may be a big part of the issue. From now on, I am going to start with RO water and add salts to build the correct profile for whatever beer I am making and see if the problem persists.

The beers in which I find the flavor the most are my malty, lower ABV beers. The worst offenders of late were an Ordinary Bitter and a Scottish 60/-. I used different yeast strains, but both were Marris Otter based and it made me wonder about that malt somehow being part of it. I've noticed it in hoppy and darker beers, but much less pronounced. That could just be because there were other flavors to hide behind. Have you ever tried bottling any of your beers that had the flavor and aging them for a bit to see if the flavor mellowed out?

One of the most striking transformations was the bitter I mentioned. I couldn't drink it. I was embarrassed to serve it. But before dumping it I bottled 6 or 8 bottles of it. They sat on my shelf for a month or so and I just tasted all of my beers using a BJCP score sheet (purely as an exercise) and that same bitter was the beer I ranked highest. I think it's a fantastic beer. I would have swore the problem was oxidation, but I can't imagine a low abv beer ever getting better with even more oxygen and warmer conditions. Really stumping me.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

No. I totally considered that and so I always toss the first inch or two of beer if it's been sitting in the lines for any amount of time. But I know what you mean. I do always taste it more in that first pour but I think that's purely because the lines are higher up in the keezer and are a bit warmer.

You may want to try a small computer fan in the kegerator to circulate air. That'll keep the lines and the keg at the same temp.

Not sure it'll help this issue.

 

[Microphobik]

I thought somebody might find this interesting...

So I just entered a bunch of my beers in a big contest that had almost 600 entries and I got four silver medals and a bronze. My highest rated beer was the Scottish 60/- that I mentioned I was having the issue with. It scored 44 points. Just one away from gold.

So whatever this off flavor is, it's definitely something that is cleaning up, especially once in the bottle at warm temperatures for a while.

I saved a few bottles to taste close to the judging, and that "dishraggy" hint that came on a few weeks into the beer aging has totally disappeared. I compared it to a sample in the keg and the bottled one is better. But the kegged example has improved as well. I'd say the beer is now three months old or so.

What might cause this arch in perceived quality, in which a beer goes from good, to what I found a bit embarassing, to award winning?

Could it be that the CO2 and carbonic acid is pushing certain flavors to the forefront, and then those flavors are melding together as it ages, and that the warmer conditions in the bottle just accelerate that aging?

I think it's safe to say that it's not oxidation.

I really don't think this is all in my head. But it's a weird arch to plan for when you want to have beer in tip top shape for an event.

 

[TCollins]

Did you ever find a definitive culprit?

 

[Microphobik]

Still no culprit. Just the same pattern. Good, then not so good, then really good. Not sure whats up. I'm thinking it's more something in the aging process then something in my personal process, and perhaps that I'm just sensitive to. But it's very odd to me.

 

[JKoravos]

I wouldn't rule out that it's all in your head.

Do some tasting with friends and fellow judges. See what they have to say.

The fact that it's not there prior to carbing then presents itself in the keg and remains after a long period, but goes away when bottled is an odd symptom. I guess carbonic acid is a potential culprit but after 2 months in the keg you should be at equilibrium, without any real excess of carbonic.

Is it there immediately after bottling? When does it subside? More testing!!! More results!!!

 

[Microphobik]

I hear you, but don't think this is all in my head. I don't have anything but macro beer drinkers around me so I don't have anyone reliable to ask, but it's a pretty specific dishrag taste (all be it a subtle one). I've judged homebrew comps before and have tasted it in other people's beers as well.

Just to clarify though, it does eventually go away in the kegs (still have some on tap) just nowhere near as fast as in bottles. Month's instead of days.

As I'm thinking about it, I wonder if it's some combo of carbonic acid and hops. I mentioned noticing it in my maltier beers, but that's what I brew mostly. I have had it in a hoppy pale ale I brewed once, and I remember distinctly noticing it in a hoppy pale ale in a recent homebrew comp as well. It was a situation where I assumed the beer was oxidized because of it, but the other judges didn't pick up on it. Not really sure. All I know is that I have disliked it so much that I have dumped a few times. When it;s gone, I really like the beer.