Welding questions

[GreenMonti]

I was pretty disappointed too...
In one spot it looked like a hairline fracture across the weld. The other spot may have been the end of the weld, to be honest I didn't pay attention to the "weld puddles".

I took the keg back to the welder (I quit using the term Weldor in this case)on Tuesday and picked it up on Wednesday. He said he tried to weld over the problem area and the crack got even larger... said he had no idea what the problem was. So he heated the area all around the coupling (turned about a 3" diameter area blue) and was able to get it to weld.

I brought it home, re-assembled the fittings and filled it with water... darn if there aren't two new leaks!!! I let it sit with about 10 gallons of water and checked the other couplings. Found a leak in one other coupling as well. Keep in mind, these are tiny leaks... maybe 3 minutes for a drop to actually form. So, I disassembled it once again. I filled the other two kegs he welded just to double check... no leaks in them.

I took the keg back for a second time yesterday. I took two new couplings and told him maybe it was contamination that was causing the problem?? I told him it was his option if wanted to cut them out and start over.

I should have it back this afternoon. I'm pretty disappointed that at this point I have to have my fingers crossed and "hope" it doesn't leak. This time I will probably just tape and screw in some plugs to check for leaks instead of going through the hassle of installing and aligning the fittings.

Ed

Oh boy......

As others have mentioned, I believe the issue with the cracking is due to dirty weld area. The cracks need to be ground out to get all the crap out of there that the weld isn't liking. This could be from a few different things. Poor prep on the "welder's" end ie...dirty, oily, hands or gloves. It could have been from not keeping the filler rod in the gas zone. It could be from not enough gas coverage on the torch side. I don't think it is a filler issue, unless he just blatantly isn't using good filler.

I would use a nice and small carbide to grind the area out and clean the surface around the trouble area to tie into, then put the gas on the back side and fill just the little area up washing the puddle to the clean outer area. Tail off the heat so you don't leave a crater and it should be good.......I fear that the torch move might have done more harm then good. The more "hard" a material is, the more difficult it is to weld without cracking. The more heat, the more crap you put in, the harder this is going to be to fix. If you can tell him to grind out that area he will be a lot better off being able to fix it. I hope he didn't forget to use the back gas on these repairs he is doing?

I agree with the above statement on the fact that "HE" should be checking them for water tightness. It wasn't a secrete as to what you were going to use them for. I check all mine and I also make sure that a fitting can still be screwed in from either side of the coupler, just in case I need to run a tap through one. I have never had the need but....

I hope he gets it taken care of for you and you can be done with this. I also hope it doesn't come down to needing a patch to fix it.

Good Luck.

Edit: I know I sound like a "clean" freak sometimes in my posts in other threads about weld prep. But this is a good reason why. If you are diligent about your prep and can rule it out right off the bat "IF" the need should ever arise with one of your welds. Look at the last pic I posted of my weld. There is nothing in that weld. Nothing on the surface, no carbon streaks, no mill scale looking stuff.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Damn what a PITA. He should be water testing them after welding on them. I'd take some plugs with me next time. Bummer.

He has the keg now, but not plugs. Last time he had a SS plug, he welded the coupling with the plug in it and got a 2" plug stuck to the point I had to cut it out, (even after I told him to only put in in 1 or 2 threads... I figured if I took it back to him, he would just put a pipe on the end of a wrench and torque it out ruining the threads) so I didn't really trust him with the plugs. I left him with 1 brass plug so he could back gas. Maybe he will find a way to plug and test, but I will test when I get it home anyway.

Got my fingers crossed.

Ed

 

[GreenMonti]

Ed, how was the fit on the couplers?

It doesn't take much of any kind of a gap (just a couple thousandths is all) to have the back gas come through the weld zone creating a lot of havoc on the torch gas. The turbulence is such that O2 is pulled into the weld zone.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Ed, how was the fit on the couplers?

It doesn't take much of any kind of a gap (just a couple thousandths is all) to have the back gas come through the weld zone creating a lot of havoc on the torch gas. The turbulence is such that O2 is pulled into the weld zone.

He put the holes in and fit the couplings so I don't know.
If you remember, I made one hole and turned half of one of the couplings... that one fit fairly tight (but that's not the one leaking).

A soon as I saw the blue metal where he heated it, my heart sank... that did not seem like the right thing to me. I took the "coffee can purge" back to him and it looked like he back gassed the first repair, hope he does the same again.

My fear is that every time he touches one of these, it's one more chance for him to mess it up (instead of a chance to fix it).

Got my fingers crossed... hoping karma is on my side.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Talked with the welder this afternoon... sounds like karma is not on my side.
He said they ended up welding a patch over one of the holes and re-setting the coupling. That one is leak free (he said they water tested).

He said they are still struggling with the other one... He said he thinks there is a difference in the composition of the kegs??

Said they fashioned some kind of seal for the top, plugged all the couplings and purged the entire keg with argon, and were still having problems. He threw out that they had wasted $60 worth of argon. I asked if they were trying to weld while the keg was pressurized, he said "no".

He said he'd like to keep the keg over the weekend and finish it Monday.
Fortunately I have plenty to do, so it's not holding me up.

At this point I'm pretty bummed... we'll see what happens Monday.

Ed

 

[Swagman]

Talked with the welder this afternoon... sounds like karma is not on my side.
He said they ended up welding a patch over one of the holes and re-setting the coupling. That one is leak free (he said they water tested).

He said they are still struggling with the other one... He said he thinks there is a difference in the composition of the kegs??

Said they fashioned some kind of seal for the top, plugged all the couplings and purged the entire keg with argon, and were still having problems. He threw out that they had wasted $60 worth of argon. I asked if they were trying to weld while the keg was pressurized, he said "no".

He said he'd like to keep the keg over the weekend and finish it Monday.
Fortunately I have plenty to do, so it's not holding me up.

At this point I'm pretty bummed... we'll see what happens Monday.

Ed

Ed
Just a guess on my part but a few years back I ran into a problem with pin holes on a weld project. These where very very small in size. I tried everything I could come up with. Even turn the weld down on the lathe and rerun a bead and pressure test and the hole was in the same place. I run into a friend who has been tig welding longer than I can remember, I asked him for a solution, now this guy will give you an answer maybe not the correct one but you will get an answer. He said too much gas flow on the weld. So the next day argon turn down and I ran a bead same thing pin hole. I went on to do something else when it hit me the problem got worse than before. Took some new material turned up the gas ran a bead and pressure tested and no problem. The problem was not enough flow onto the weld and I was gettin O2 into weld. I found when I got a pin hole they where a bear to flow over and get a seal. Another problem is with some of the china metal is high in carbon and foreign material. Couplers are casted and some are pretty bad. Not sure this will help but Greenmonti is correct about a tight fit is a must. They might be getting blow by again just a guess.

The couplers I weld I turn down on the lathe to half length to one inch plus and where I'm going to weld I clean that area up also. My opinion is when things. are cast the foreign material will rise to the top so a little turn down don't hurt. Just my opinion.

Swagman

 

[GreenMonti]

Talked with the welder this afternoon... sounds like karma is not on my side.
He said they ended up welding a patch over one of the holes and re-setting the coupling. That one is leak free (he said they water tested).

He said they are still struggling with the other one... He said he thinks there is a difference in the composition of the kegs??

Said they fashioned some kind of seal for the top, plugged all the couplings and purged the entire keg with argon, and were still having problems. He threw out that they had wasted $60 worth of argon. I asked if they were trying to weld while the keg was pressurized, he said "no".

He said he'd like to keep the keg over the weekend and finish it Monday.
Fortunately I have plenty to do, so it's not holding me up.

At this point I'm pretty bummed... we'll see what happens Monday.

Ed

There is no composition difference. He is the composition difference. I would bet the patch isn't welded on the inside either. I am not so sure I would be happy with the patch. Who knows what material they used for the patch and what the inside looks like. The old hole should be sealed off with a weld IMO. Depending on the patch size, that's a lot of room for liquid to set around. Boiled or not.

There must be pressure or the purge is pretty much useless. There only need be a whisper of gas coming out, but that is pressure.(technically) What I mentioned in the other post is enough pressure to cause upset on the torch end of things. I would be REALLY upset if they hadn't asked me if it was ok to weld a patch on my keg. Did they call you and ask?

I am pretty bummed for you.

 

[kladue]

Sounds like a lot of gap in the weld and pulling the arc out in the weld zone instead of tailing of on the side of the keg away from the main puddle. We have always called that the pull out as***le as it leaves a nice round crater in the weld to leak for you.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Swagman & GreenMonti - Thanks for the feedback, I feel real helpless with this one. I'm afraid this problem is about to beat this guy and this might get ugly. He did not ask me about welding a patch on the keg (he did say they used a piece of 16g stainless). I can only hope he did a decent job with the patch. He did mention he used a bunch of gas and my fear is that he is setting the stage by trying to convince me the kegs are different that this is somehow my fault. I know he is trying to run a business and make money and I'm sure he hates looking at these kegs as much as I hate dropping them off.

The leak was so small, I thought about trying to silver solder it myself (been following that thread) or just sealing it with silicone. But I know as soon as I touch it, it becomes my problem and decided to try to get it finished the way I planned from the beginning.

Maybe karma will be good to me over the weekend.

 

[Dog House Brew]

A leak of any size is a leak. You idn't have the poject done to have a leak. He obviously isn't a stainless welder. I really feel bad for you. I hope things work out. I agree with what GM said, he is the problem.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Sounds like a lot of gap in the weld and pulling the arc out in the weld zone instead of tailing of on the side of the keg away from the main puddle. We have always called that the pull out as***le as it leaves a nice round crater in the weld to leak for you.

One of the original leaks I saw looked like a crack across the weld, I don't remember exactly where the other was... Not sure it that was the as***le you are talking about or not?

I am obviously not a welder and this guy is only going to take so much "advise" from me. There is some pretty consistent ideas of what the problem with the weld is from you guys here on HBT... If I had bought a welder and attempted to do this myself, trust me I'd be trying what I'm hearing here. That's what's frustrating, I can't act on what I feel is good advice, I have to wait and see what he decides to try next...arrggg.

Dog House - yea I know these things are true... As bad as this is going, I think I am still better off than I would have been with some of the first guys I talked to. This welder really is a nice guy, he is trying to fix this (I think he probably has limited resources for finding the answer... he doesn't have HBT at his disposal ). I agree he is the problem, but because he is at the edge of his knowledge/ability, not because he is an a$$hole. I think many others would have thrown in the towel by now.

Thanks for the sentiment guys... I can hardly wait to get this thing done.

Ed

 

[BrewBeemer]

Sounds like a lot of gap in the weld and pulling the arc out in the weld zone instead of tailing of on the side of the keg away from the main puddle. We have always called that the pull out as***le as it leaves a nice round crater in the weld to leak for you.

A crater at the end of the weld while cutting back the heat or from a dirty prep job plus not using the crater fill feature of the welder?

I have a friend that ends up with pin holes and bubbles from crap he tries to weld over, he just keeps adding filler over the crap instead of grinding out the area and starting over again. His kegs look like hell plus uses liquid steel to seal up pin holes. One of those "Good Enough" people.

I bet that welder wants you to just go away.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Got the keg back today.
He ended up welding a 16 gauge SS plates over both holes that were leaking and re-installing the couplings. He plugged all the couplings and water tested it before I got there... no leaks. I brought it home and retested just to make sure... no leaks. I'm not 100% happy that he welded the plates over the holes and there is a bit of sugaring around the couplings, but at this point it's done. I took some pictures but won't be able to post them til tomorrow. I have to say, I'm really impressed that this guy hung in there until he got it as good as he did. As I left with the keg... he shook my hand, commented about this being a learning experience and he said to let him know when I had others to be done.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Some pictures as promised. These were taken with my phone.

 

[GreenMonti]

Arrrrgghh,

Sorry man. That's rough. The bottom one looks like it is rusting.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Arrrrgghh,

Sorry man. That's rough. The bottom one looks like it is rusting.

Cool it Monti; JK. Our HBT member has already been thru the meat grinder on this welding hack job. Kind of sad I agree, time for damage control to salvage them back to what they almost were before he started this welding process.
I see a lot of threads inside the temp probe, I myself would of bored them out until smooth on the lathe before welding in the coupling. This way a lot cleaner with threads only on couplings needing a internal fitting threaded on.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Cool it Monti; JK. Our HBT member has already been thru the meat grinder on this welding hack job. Kind of sad I agree, time for damage control to salvage them back to what they almost were before he started this welding process.
I see a lot of threads inside the temp probe, I myself would of bored them out until smooth on the lathe before welding in the coupling. This way a lot cleaner with threads only on couplings needing a internal fitting threaded on.

BrewBeemer: I have pretty thick skin and I'm not blind, so I know this welding is far from perfect. As for the threads, I plan to thread a "shield" into the coupler to protect the temp probe. The shield will be a 1/2" SS Nipple with the threads cut off one end and a series of wide slots cut into it to allow thermal transfer. I plan to make one each for the HLT, MT & BK. I'm just gonna hand thread them in so they can easily be removed for cleaning between use.

GreenMonti: The coupling doesn't look as bad as the picture. It is discolored, but I don't see signs of rust just "yet".

This keg is identical (same couplings in the same place) to another I had welded. The idea was to have an HLT & BK that would be interchangeable. I think I will start by using this one as the HLT. Plain water may be a little easier for me to keep an eye on the condition of the welds.

I have a couple extra kegs that have not been touched. I will continue to keep my eyes open for a weldor locally, and I may having these re-done in he future. Heck, who knows... maybe I end up spending the $ and buy commercial pots to replace the kegs.

Bottom line... I'm not 100% happy, but next to the original keggle I've been using these look golden and nobody has died from drinking the beer made in it. I will use these and keep my eyes open for opportunities, but isn't that what we always do as Home Brewers?

Thanks to all that have followed this thread and offered input.

Ed

 

[Dog House Brew]

Glad to hear it Ed, about the thick skin. Actually I thought they looked better than I had expected. Not great, but usable. They look a lot better than the couplings I had put into my original 10 gallon Polarware pot I paid $250 for. I had a heart attack when I saw my job. They will make great beer, it just sucks that you had worked so hard to get the job done right. I second the thought of pots. I get my money together I will have 30 gallon kettles. Thanks for sharing and giving the education. Really a good thread. Now get brewing!!!!!!

 

[ardentfrost]

About 10 years ago I worked in a sheet metal shop and spent some time working with the welders doing fitting and cleaning (usually there was one or two guys assigned to doing that so the welders could spend more time welding and less time forming, holding, cleaning, and setting up the metal that needed welding).

I say that just to say this:

If there is rust in the weld, all is not lost. Stainless is a great metal to work with, but it does take special precaution when preparing and working with it. That includes cleaning it (pre and post weld) with a grinding wheel that has NEVER been used on iron or galvanized. When used on iron or galvanized, the grinding wheel gets bits of it lodged into the flaps which then come off into the stainless. It's those little bits that rust, not the stainless itself.

To fix, go buy a brand new grinding or flapper wheel and clean the weld again (a flapper wheel on a drill might be better considering how tight that area looks). Make sure you get all signs of rust thoroughly to remove all those bits of rustable metal, and don't be afraid of grinding the welds down to get space around them. Just be careful not to grind all the way through the metal.

That being said, it's hard from the pic to say if there is or isn't rust. It looks like it might just be char marks from the welder having the heat turned up too high for the material. Just keep an eye on it after a brew or two, but don't fret too much. It could have been WAY worse.

 

[BrewBeemer]

I noticed the labor rates at my friends stainless fab shop, he charges $85 an hour. I've see people come in with an idea and not any fully designed plans to work off hence more paid time to complete the design project. These people will drop from $500 to $5,000 without batting an eye. Same with custom stainless marine design and fab welding jobs he lands, they just want it done and pay up without any worry about the cost.