Weird but good problem but seeking opinions

[BrewinSoldier]

Alright I have a question pertaining to my beers. Been brewing for 7 years now. I feel like I'm a pretty advanced brewer. I build all my own recipes, build my water from scratch via RO water, always dial in my pH, etc. I have stainless unitanks running on glycol so my temps stay very precise. So quick background, I've won awards with my beers, been on a radio show and had a few beers rated highly by grandmaster BJCP judges, and attended several events where I poured my beers with very high feedback. All that is good and dandy, but I personally feel like my beers are missing something. They come out super clean, no off flavors, I'd go as far as to say commercial quality.

Problem I am having with my own beers, no matter the style or which yeast is I feel they are lacking different malt flavors that are in the grainbill. I guess that would be the best way too describe it. Or "too clean".

I've tried upping my mash temp to 154. I'm currently doing full batch/no sparge brewing since it is said to make the beers maltier. I'm a little lost as to what to try next. I can try upping my mash pH to 5.5 and see if that helps.

Part of me also wonders if making yeast starters is maybe making them too clean.

Any thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.

 

[SanPancho]

If you want esters, pitch a bit warm and let it cool to temp. And up the nutrients.

If you want more malt presence, you can add in a more flavorful grain for a portion of your base- vienna, munich, maris, golden promise, etc. Add mid range roasts like the 40-100 range. Use brewtan b. And while im not experienced enough to say with authority, there is something to the LoDo stuff. They talk about crazy malt profile alot. Worth looking into it. Also sodium can help with malty beers.

 

[Vale71]

Ever tried decotion?

 

[mongoose33]

If you want esters, pitch a bit warm and let it cool to temp. And up the nutrients.

If you want more malt presence, you can add in a more flavorful grain for a portion of your base- vienna, munich, maris, golden promise, etc. Add mid range roasts like the 40-100 range. Use brewtan b. And while im not experienced enough to say with authority, there is something to the LoDo stuff. They talk about crazy malt profile alot. Worth looking into it. Also sodium can help with malty beers.

Think carefully before starting to go down that LODO rabbit hole.

OP doesn't say what typical recipes are, whether ales or lagers, so it's hard to pin any of this down.

I like a malty, flavorful beer so I tend to use malts that are more flavor-forward, like Maris Otter, Munich, Rye. My standard recipes (such as they are) use MO as the base malt. Sometimes I'll use some Pilsen malt.

*********
About LODO. I'm doing it, or at least trying to. Well, I've had some success with it, and what @SanPancho says is true--there is something to it.

The malt flavors are much richer-tasting, and there's a depth of body that's significant. That's the upside.

The downside is there's a learning curve to do it, plus you may need new equipment. One tenet of LODO brewing is to get copper and aluminum out of the system. Both promote what are called Fenton reactions which produce staling compounds. This can be mitigated using Brewtan-B to at least some extent.

The problem is that as you go from uncrushed grain to the boil, if you allow the flavors to be oxidized, that's it, you can't go back. That means crushing the grain as close to dough-in as you can (couple minutes is what I aim for), crush with larger grain particles (less surface area for oxygen to attack), underlet the grain, minimize stirring or other disturbance of the mash, use a mash cap to isolate the mash from the air, carefully lauter into the bk, use a lauter cap (cap on the wort as its filling the BK). Some go so far as to purge their hoses with CO2, and some like me will use Campden tablets crushed as oxygen scavengers in the mash to capture the inevitable bits of O2 that get in there.

Then there's avoiding O2 on the cold side, which most seem to have a pretty good handle on.

It takes longer to do LODO, and it's more fiddly. Whether any of that is worth it to the brewer depends on their own values. But there is something to it.

Brewed a mongoose version of a mexican lager 2 weeks ago. LODO, which is how I do everything now. 8# pilsen malt, 4# maris otter, 1# munich, 1# flaked corn. Thirteen days after brewing (i.e., last night), the beer has settled down and is intensely flavorful. It's still "lagering" so I expect some further flavor changes, but it's an incredibly flavorful beer. I'm going to tweak the recipe, but I'd bet it has the kind of flavor fullness OP is looking for.

 

[kh54s10]

Back to basics. What yeasts are being used? Some attenuate very cleanly, others leave more malt flavors.
Recipes? Do you add enough specialty grains. A common idea is to limit to 15% of the grainbill. Push that envelope..
Do you use maltier base grains, Maris Otter, Vienna, or other? At least in combination with basic 2-row?

 

[BrewinSoldier]

@mongoose33 , that definitely seems interesting. I read all about it a while back but to do it right I'd have to upgrade all my new equipment. I've never tasted one brewed that way yet so I guess I'm not completely sold on the hype. Definitely would love to taste some though.

@kh54s10 , I use all different types of yeast(always liquid) depending on which type I'm doing. 001/1056 for American ales, browns, wheats, etc. I've also played with ESB yeast on some IPAs, 1318, Vermont ale, lager yeasts,etc. l also just made a Cali Common and used 2112. That recipe has rahr two row, crystal 80, and victory. It's super good and clean, just not getting the nutty and toasty or the carmely from the malts.

I use specialty grain in recipes but just don't get the flavors out of them.

The thing is I've tasted beers from beers brewed using the same yeasts and they just seem to pop more.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Ever tried decotion?

I never have actually.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

If you want esters, pitch a bit warm and let it cool to temp. And up the nutrients.

If you want more malt presence, you can add in a more flavorful grain for a portion of your base- vienna, munich, maris, golden promise, etc. Add mid range roasts like the 40-100 range. Use brewtan b. And while im not experienced enough to say with authority, there is something to the LoDo stuff. They talk about crazy malt profile alot. Worth looking into it. Also sodium can help with malty beers.

What temp are you thinking 75°? With glycol, my system drops the temps fast. I can set it for 1° intervals every hour until I get to 68° or 53° for lagers.

I do use specialty malts in recipes that they go in like some IPAs, stouts, Cascadian dark ale, etc. I usually add them in towards the max percentage line depending on how many I'm using. I always use Rahr 2 row as it's a premium base malt that I feel gives the best flavor.

I have used MO,GP, Vienna and Munich in some of my NEIPAs. Maybe I'll try using them as a replacement for the rahr in an upcoming recipe.

I think my problem is, I know my beers taste good and people always like them. But now that I've decided to stop being lazy and would like to started getting more recognized by entering BJCP comps, I feel like if I submit say a nut brown ale they won't be able to taste that specific nutty flavor that should be in there. It's driving me nuts lol

 

[mongoose33]

@mongoose33 , that definitely seems interesting. I read all about it a while back but to do it right I'd have to upgrade all my new equipment. I've never tasted one brewed that way yet so I guess I'm not completely sold on the hype. Definitely would love to taste some though.

Oh, I'm not suggesting you try it. And not suggesting you don't.

I started doing it because I was curious. Like you, I wanted to taste some beer done that way, but there's no way to do that at least around me. So I decided the only way to fairly test the idea was...well, to test it myself. It made sense, and even not doing all of the LODO techniques improved the beer.

So I am. Been doing it in various guises now for almost 16 months, getting better at it all the time. LODO has required me to adjust recipes somewhat to accommodate it--sometimes the accentuation of malt flavors is so intense it's...too intense.

I still have further changes to make, it's a process, a journey. But there's been enough positive feedback that I continue.

You can make good beer without doing this.

 

[MaxStout]

@mongoose33 , that definitely seems interesting. I read all about it a while back but to do it right I'd have to upgrade all my new equipment. I've never tasted one brewed that way yet so I guess I'm not completely sold on the hype. Definitely would love to taste some though.

@kh54s10 , I use all different types of yeast(always liquid) depending on which type I'm doing. 001/1056 for American ales, browns, wheats, etc. I've also played with ESB yeast on some IPAs, 1318, Vermont ale, lager yeasts,etc. l also just made a Cali Common and used 2112. That recipe has rahr two row, crystal 80, and victory. It's super good and clean, just not getting the nutty and toasty or the carmely from the malts.

I use specialty grain in recipes but just don't get the flavors out of them.

The thing is I've tasted beers from beers brewed using the same yeasts and they just seem to pop more.

Replace 1/2 or so of that 2-row with Maris Otter or Vienna.

 

[SanPancho]

Theres some research papers showing that there are increased esters in the finished beer when the ferm temp started high and then got lower. In your case, sounds like you could easily pitch at 75 and have it down to 68 over the next 24 or 48 hours. And nutrients also increased esters.

Also, maybe try some new yeasts. I know folks that combo up two “similar “ yeasts to get a best of both result, i.e wlp002 is flavorful but low attenuating and sometimes diacetyl prone. Very english. So they combo with 007 (dry english) as its drier and attenuates more. Cant recall if its copitched or staggered, but you get the idea. As for dis-similar yeasts, theres a 3 day rule you can use. Basically you can pitch pretty much anything after 72 hours and the flavor addition is nil. The other characteristics come through tho- attenuation, flocculation, diacetyl cleanup, etc. Thats for ales. Cant recall a number lagers, id assume maybe more like 5 days. Just a guess
Also, as i noted earlier i really think most folks ignore the toasty stuff in the 40-100 range. Not crystal, just toasted. Biscuit, brown, amber, special roast, victory, munich28, etc. In malt forward beers they really make a difference. Just my 2c.

 

[brewcat]

I actually was thinking the same thing with this brown I just brewed. It is fine but missing something. I'm leaning towards upping ferment temp to increase esters.

 

[isomerization]

Oh, I'm not suggesting you try it. And not suggesting you don't.

I started doing it because I was curious. Like you, I wanted to taste some beer done that way, but there's no way to do that at least around me. So I decided the only way to fairly test the idea was...well, to test it myself. It made sense, and even not doing all of the LODO techniques improved the beer.

So I am. Been doing it in various guises now for almost 16 months, getting better at it all the time. LODO has required me to adjust recipes somewhat to accommodate it--sometimes the accentuation of malt flavors is so intense it's...too intense.

I still have further changes to make, it's a process, a journey. But there's been enough positive feedback that I continue.

You can make good beer without doing this.

I really wish I could taste a true side by side with LODO. Why hasn’t there been something like this done that is then screamed from the mountain tops?

Even your own post doesn’t seem to be sold on the technique and you’ve been going 16 months strong.

 

[mongoose33]

I really wish I could taste a true side by side with LODO. Why hasn’t there been something like this done that is then screamed from the mountain tops?

Even your own post doesn’t seem to be sold on the technique and you’ve been going 16 months strong.

Here's the problem with side-by-side: the processes are different. When I feel comfortable that I have this down, I'll try to brew the same recipe side-by-side...but they won't be the same recipe.

I've brewed a pilsner a couple times using LODO. It's like a punch of flavor in the mouth. In fact, I'm not that big a fan of pilsners, I originally did one as a beer to enter into a local contest. Won it, in fact.

Brewed another. Same general flavor. A friend of mine with a palate to die for--he can taste things I cannot--was just effusive in his praise of it. In front of a group of people he said he didn't want to comment on it with me there because he didn't want me to get a big head. Yeah, like that's a problem.

So I'm fooling with recipe adjustments, process adjustments....when it's been great, it's really been great. Brewed an Amber a year ago, had it on Christmas eve. Mythic it was. The wine drinkers set aside their glasses and started drinking this beer, and had multiple refills. What is it about a beer that converts wine drinkers? I dunno, but LODO is part of it.

But since there is recipe adjustment to accommodate LODO, is it really side-by-side to do a comparison? I don't know. Further, I use a stainless Spike conical, which is the only one I have. I also have plastic bigmouth bubbler fermenters, so I could ferment one in the spike, and one in the plastic fermenter. But then...that's not the same process.

*********

I guess the....reservedness you sense in the prior post is that it's not as easy to do LODO, at least not for me. I long for when I did BIAB, which is the most relaxing style of brewing I've done by far. Easy, relaxed, pleasant.

LODO is not that, for me. More complicated, more moving parts. I have to preboil the strike water (to drive off oxygen from it), then cool to strike temp. Then underlet (about a gallon per minute, maybe a little less) into the mash tun. I have to crush the grain just moments before underletting. I have to use mash and lauter caps to prevent oxygen from the air from contacting the mash and the wort in the boil kettle before it boils. I try to purge lines with CO2 (not very good at that yet), and it's all just really fiddly for me.

And it has gotten easier as time has gone on. That should continue.

Now, realize, to me the beer is better. A lot better sometimes. Even when it's not perfect, it's still good, but I'm sort of like Captain Ahab looking for the white whale, except I've caught the whale a few times.

It's not just me saying it's good, either. A local bar owner wants to sell it on tap. Had two friends on Friday want to buy it from me. Lots of friends will take free beer and tell you it's good, because they don't want to cut off their supply of free beer. But when they'll pay you what they pay for a sixpack in the store ($8-10), then that's different. BTW, I don't sell it. Can't. No license.

So....it's a journey I'm on. I can see the destination. I believe it's reachable. But the trip is not for everyone.