Water treatment process for HERMS - feedback?

[dunnry]

I have a new RO setup and I brew with a 3 vessel, electric HERMS setup. I have a 20 gal HLT in this configuration.

I fill my HLT full each time, no matter the resulting batch size (6-12 gals) being brewed. This has to do with keeping the coils covered in water. Using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet, this would equate to putting 20 gals in the 'mash' column no matter what. I would also leave the sparge column at 0.

I am thinking about where and when to add the additions. My current thinking is to pre-treat the HLT before it heats up with all the additions including lactic acid.

Questions:

1. Does the 'Total Batch Volume' column have any bearing on the calculations (e.g. for boil off concentration)?
   
2. Is adding the required acid and brewing salts to the HLT before heating it up the right idea? Any issues with this approach?
   
3. I am trying to reconcile AJ's advice in the primer (and foreword to "Water") about adding 1 tsp calcium chloride per 5 gals. If I say that 1 tsp ~= 3.1 grams, I get around .6 g/gal. That kinda/sorta is almost the 'Yellow Full' profile. Is there a different profile that approximate's his advice? This is more curiosity than anything.
   

For example:

 

[tgmartin000]

I've also been debating this question. Why not just add your sparge salts to the kettle instead? That way you only need a tiny amount of acid for the sparge water. Sorry I can't answer your questions otherwise. ...

 

[Yooper]

You can sparge with 100% RO water, so what I do is add any necessary acid/salts to the MLT with the mash, to target a mash pH of 5.3-5.5 depending on what I"m making. Any additional salts go into the boil kettle if I"m using them (generally not). Usually, all of my brewing salts go into the mash tun with the mash and water.

Then, my HLT has only RO water in it and I can sparge with it.

In bru'nwater, I add all of my salts to the mash. It's tricky, as I didn't find a way to do it through the software. So I play with it, adding all of the salts to the mash (putting 0 for the sparge volume), to check the mash pH. Usually it's fine, but occasionally in a high gypsum batch it may drive the mash pH a bit low. Then, I "fix" it properly to show the actual amounts of everything, and make a note of the projected mash pH.

It's pretty close to the mash pH I actually get, and the end water profile is right on.

 

[dunnry]

I've also been debating this question. Why not just add your sparge salts to the kettle instead? That way you only need a tiny amount of acid for the sparge water. Sorry I can't answer your questions otherwise. ...

Most of the time, I end up using anywhere from 16 to 18 gals of water out of the 20 available (for 12 gal batch). So, there isn't much waste in terms of treating all the water.

You can sparge with 100% RO water, so what I do is add any necessary acid/salts to the MLT with the mash, to target a mash pH of 5.3-5.5 depending on what I"m making. Any additional salts go into the boil kettle if I"m using them (generally not). Usually, all of my brewing salts go into the mash tun with the mash and water.

Then, my HLT has only RO water in it and I can sparge with it.

In bru'nwater, I add all of my salts to the mash. It's tricky, as I didn't find a way to do it through the software. So I play with it, adding all of the salts to the mash (putting 0 for the sparge volume), to check the mash pH. Usually it's fine, but occasionally in a high gypsum batch it may drive the mash pH a bit low. Then, I "fix" it properly to show the actual amounts of everything, and make a note of the projected mash pH.

It's pretty close to the mash pH I actually get, and the end water profile is right on.

For my setup, it just seems easier to put the water adjustments directly into the HLT before pumping it over to the mash tun. This way both the mash and the sparge are treated (and equally). That being said, there is no reason I can't add directly the mash tun and leave the HLT alone. The only concern with MT additions only I see is that it was recommended to add the salts and acid to cold water. Again, not sure of the true impact here. Do you know?

I realize that sparging with untreated RO water will impact the boil kettle pH, but I wouldn't know how much without measuring it. Have you measured your boil kettle pH? I have heard that boil kettle pH can impact hop extraction and perceived harshness.

 

[mabrungard]

In bru'nwater, I add all of my salts to the mash. It's tricky, as I didn't find a way to do it through the software.

What?? You have the supporter's version and all you have to do is change "Add sparging water mineral additions to the Mash?" from NO to YES.

Adding all the minerals to the mash is a great technique when making beers that you purposely want to have low mineralization in the water. Adding all the minerals to the mash means that the mashing water is more likely to have enough calcium in it to precipitate oxalate and beerstone from the wort.

 

[Yooper]

What?? You have the supporter's version and all you have to do is change "Add sparging water mineral additions to the Mash?" from NO to YES.

Adding all the minerals to the mash is a great technique when making beers that you purposely want to have low mineralization in the water. Adding all the minerals to the mash means that the mashing water is more likely to have enough calcium in it to precipitate oxalate and beerstone from the wort.

I seriously never saw that option! I've said it before, and I guess I need to say it again- I'm cute but apparently not very bright................................

 

[mabrungard]

I'll certainly attest to cute!

 

[dunnry]

What?? You have the supporter's version and all you have to do is change "Add sparging water mineral additions to the Mash?" from NO to YES.

Adding all the minerals to the mash is a great technique when making beers that you purposely want to have low mineralization in the water. Adding all the minerals to the mash means that the mashing water is more likely to have enough calcium in it to precipitate oxalate and beerstone from the wort.

So, I take it the version I show up above is not correct for what I am talking about then? I might be slightly confused now in what each column impacts. Am I using it right? What does total volume column impact?

 

[mabrungard]

Yes, the free version does not have the capability just mentioned, but it should be fine for your HERMS use. For most brewing, it should be fine to input 20 gal into the mash volume and zero into the sparging volume and adding mineral and acids based on that volume. The only time that may not work well is if brewing a dark beer where higher mashing water alkalinity is desirable. Then your sparging water could be at a higher than desirable alkalinity if calculated that way.

Another option is to split the 20 gallons into a mashing water volume and sparging/leftover volume. That way you can figure out exactly how much alkalinity-increasing salts like lime and baking soda to add directly to the mash. All the other salts could be added to the HLT.

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Another option is to split the 20 gallons into a mashing water volume and sparging/leftover volume. That way you can figure out exactly how much alkalinity-increasing salts like lime and baking soda to add directly to the mash. All the other salts could be added to the HLT.[/QUOTE]



Now this is how I am trying to do things myself with using the 13 gallons in my HLT in which I use that water for my mash and then refill to get it above my coils and then use that water to sparge afterwards. In that instance would you believe adding minimal minerals to the mash and then add them to the water after I add back water into the HLT for use as my sparge? Or do you think once I move the water over to to the mash and am adding water back into the HLT that just pure RO water or even tap water going in would be enough for the sparge to not mess anything up?

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Yes, the free version does not have the capability just mentioned, but it should be fine for your HERMS use. For most brewing, it should be fine to input 20 gal into the mash volume and zero into the sparging volume and adding mineral and acids based on that volume. The only time that may not work well is if brewing a dark beer where higher mashing water alkalinity is desirable. Then your sparging water could be at a higher than desirable alkalinity if calculated that way.

Another option is to split the 20 gallons into a mashing water volume and sparging/leftover volume. That way you can figure out exactly how much alkalinity-increasing salts like lime and baking soda to add directly to the mash. All the other salts could be added to the HLT.

Now this is how I am trying to do things myself with using the 13 gallons in my HLT in which I use that water for my mash and then refill to get it above my coils and then use that water to sparge afterwards. In that instance would you believe adding minimal minerals to the mash and then add them to the water after I add back water into the HLT for use as my sparge? Or do you think once I move the water over to to the mash and am adding water back into the HLT that just pure RO water or even tap water going in would be enough for the sparge to not mess anything up?

 

[ChappysBrewing]

Yes, the free version does not have the capability just mentioned, but it should be fine for your HERMS use. For most brewing, it should be fine to input 20 gal into the mash volume and zero into the sparging volume and adding mineral and acids based on that volume. The only time that may not work well is if brewing a dark beer where higher mashing water alkalinity is desirable. Then your sparging water could be at a higher than desirable alkalinity if calculated that way.

Another option is to split the 20 gallons into a mashing water volume and sparging/leftover volume. That way you can figure out exactly how much alkalinity-increasing salts like lime and baking soda to add directly to the mash. All the other salts could be added to the HLT.

Now this is how I am trying to do things myself with using the 13 gallons in my HLT in which I use that water for my mash and then refill to get it above my coils and then use that water to sparge afterwards. In that instance would you believe adding minimal minerals to the mash and then add them to the water after I add back water into the HLT for use as my sparge? Or do you think once I move the water over to to the mash and am adding water back into the HLT that just pure RO water or even tap water going in would be enough for the sparge to not mess anything up?

 

[auburntsts]

Say you have more water in the HLT than you need for sparge in order to keep the HERMS coil covered and you need to add adjustments, like an acid. For arguments sake, lets say there's 15 gal of water in the HLT but only 6 gal is calculated necessary for sparging. In BrunWater would you input 15 as the sparge amount in order to get the right acid concentration in the 6 gals that will ultimately make its way to the mash? My apologies if this is obvious, but chemistry is definitely not my subject.

 

[mabrungard]

In BrunWater would you input 15 as the sparge amount in order to get the right acid concentration in the 6 gals that will ultimately make its way to the mash?

If you want the desired concentrations in your finished wort, you'll have to account for and include that 'unused' water in your calculation. So 15 gal is the volume. I guess you'll have to waste any minerals and acid in that remaining water (or you could save and store it).

 

[Gameface]

If you want the desired concentrations in your finished wort, you'll have to account for and include that 'unused' water in your calculation. So 15 gal is the volume. I guess you'll have to waste any minerals and acid in that remaining water (or you could save and store it).

Would this throw off the "Overall finished water profile" values? It doesn't seem like it does as I'm playing around with it, but it seems like it should.