Water Profile Help

[HopSong]

Is there a water profile that you can point me to for:

1. APA?

2. Stout?

I know the important points of my city water profile.

I have Beersmith.. I can put my profile in there.. but don't know how to add either of the above two to show what the additions should be.

I've also looked at Brewers Friend.. but... confused.

 

[eastoak]

it would be easier to answer this if we knew what your water profile is now.

 

[Yooper]

Instead of trying to "match" profiles, the key is to use a spreadsheet (braukaiser.com, brunwater, or EZ water) and to target the appropriate mash pH.

Once you do that, any additions would be "extras". For example, with my tap water, I don't need any additions for my stout. But for my pale ales, I must use RO water as my tap water is WAY too alkaline, and then have very little additions.

If you let us know your starting water profile, we can help. Or you can read the "brewing water primer" in the Brewing Science area if you want to read up on the basics.

 

[HopSong]

Thanks Yooper.. I remember just reading a bunch of posts on this.. even when you were having problems trying to decipher this. I'm having the same problems as you did.. but mainly in understanding.. I just DON'T GET IT.. dern. I posted the data HERE and others made good comments.. but, I'm still lost.. I don't want people to think I'm impossible.. but, maybe I am

 

[billl]

Instead of focusing on the theory, just approach it from a practical viewpoint.

If your tap water is pretty neutral, start with the pale ale. If it is has a mineral taste to it, start with a stout. In either case, pick out a nice, simple recipe.

Don't add anything to your water. Just mash in with a relatively loose ratio (eg 1.5+ quarts per lb). Stir the heck out of the mash - at least 5 minutes. Let it rest for a few minutes and check the ph. If you are in the low 5's, your water is naturally perfect for that style. If not, you've got a starting point to adjust up or down.

With my tap water, a typical stout mash is about 0.2 lower.

 

[HopSong]

Bill, My plan is to work out the profile to do Yooper's Pale Ale.

I tried EZ Water. I got everything in range except the pH is at the high end of what EZ recommends.

Outside of trying to change the salts listed.. can I use an acidulated malt and/or Lactic Acid to drop the pH a point?? I'm at an estimated room temp mash pH of 5.61 and the desired is 5.4-5.6

This may not mean a hill of beans in the grand scheme.. but part of the learning process is how do I fix this..?

I've finally got it to this point...

Ca recommended 50-150 I'm at Mash Water Profile of 122 and Mash + Sparge Water Profile of 101 This looks good
Mg " 10-30 " 19 " 19 "
Na " 0-150 " 8 " 8 "
Cl " 0-250 " 135 " 98 "
SO4 " 50-350 " 92 " 92
Cl/So4 ratio .77-1.3=Balance " 1.47 " 1.06 I don't know if this looks good or not

Together with the city water profile I referenced in my Post#4 above, I'm planning on doing a Mash volume of 2 G and Sparge Water of 2.25 G to build a 3G volume in the fermenter.

I'm using 2.8# of Maris Otter
1.7# of Vienna
1.15# Munich
.3# Crystal 20
.3# Crystal 60

I adjusted my mash pH down with 1 g CaSO4; 2 g CaCl2

Again, any suggestions appreciated.. big time. I know I'm probably making a mountain out of a mole hill.. but, it's a learning process to me.

Thanks again.. Bill

 

[RumRiverBrewer]

*I got everything in range except the pH is at the high end *

Try increasing the RO % and watch the pH go down in EZ Water. Keep the salts constant (if they are arriving at the necessary values) and adjust the RO % to get to where you need to be. I have alkaline well water and for a stout I need maybe 10% RO and very little salts, but for a good IPA, 60% RO and a moderate amount of gypsum and epsom salt. Experiment in EZ water and you'll arrive at what you need (assuming you have a good water report as a starting point)

 

[Yooper]

You don't want to adjust the pH with salts, you just use the salts to get the chloride and sulfate (etc) in range.

Your chloride looks pretty high, so I wouldn't add any CaCl2. As long as your Calcium is 50 +/-, you're fine.

Use lactic acid, phosphoric acid, or acid malt to adjust the pH down.

 

[RumRiverBrewer]

Right - We're talking mash pH here. If your pH for the mash is high in EZ water (or in the MLT for that matter), the water's got residual alkalinity and you need to get it lowered to your target pH for the mash. One way is to dilute it with RO or distilled water. You can adjust it and see the effect in EZ. Or you can try acid malt, and I believe there's a place for that too in EZ. I prefer not to lower my pH using liquid acid additions for the mash, just my preference, but I do use it for my sparge water if necessary.

 

[billl]

"Again, any suggestions appreciated.. big time"

Generally, it is better to just cut it with some RO than to add MORE minerals to try to counteract what is there.

I'm sure Yooper brews a heck of a pale ale, but there is more than one way up the mountain. My wife's family is from escanaba MI and I can attest to how hard the water is. It's like a liquid multivitamin! They've literally been mining iron, and copper and salts underfoot. If I was picking a water profile to start an APA from, it would be one of the last places in the country I would consider. The only real option to brew an APA there would be to use essentially 100% RO or bottled water. You are nowhere near those levels, so I'd just plug in something like 50% RO and see where it gets you. Play with that % until you get the ph about right. Personally, I'd stop at that point and brew a test batch, but you could certainly tweak with gypsum etc if you are bored.

 

[HopSong]

Thanks again to all..
Yooper.. You mentioned my Cl is high. It's only 8ppm.. according to EZ the acceptable range is 0-150

The whole thing is fun.. but, frustrating at the same time.. Considering my water profile is constant.. at least for this learning process.. it changes a bit during the year..
Ca: 20ppm; Mg 18.5ppm; Na 8ppm; Cl: 8ppm; Sulfate(SO4): 18.5ppm; HCO3: 158ppm; Total Alkalinity: 130ppm and Total Hardness: 131ppm.

With just 2G mash water and 2G sparge water.. UNDILUTED with the grains I'm using, the pH is 5.68.. a bit high and the Ca is low at 20ppm (range should be 50-150) and the SO4 is low at 19ppm (should be 50-350) and the Cl/SO4 ratio is low at .43 and should be above .77

If I modify the water by 50% RO, the pH drops a bit to 5.63; Ca drops to 10; SO4 drops to 9 but the Mg drops to 9 and should be between 10-30ppm.. of course the Na and Cl cut in half too.. but the ratio is still at .43

However, if I take the 50/50 water and add 1gm Gypsum, 1.5gm CaCl2, 1gm MgSO4 and 1 oz of acidulated malt... everything falls into place beautifully for the generic spreadsheet. The resulting water profile is
Ca: 94(50-150); Mg: 15(10-30); Na:4(0-150); Cl: 100(0-250); SO4: 109(50-350); Cl/SO4 ratio: .92(.77-1.3).. What isn't beautiful is that the effective Alkalinity is reading -39 and the Residual Alkalinity is -115. Also my CA and SO4 seem a bit low.
So, I'm at the point of... How do I get my alkalinity up while maintaining salt balances and pH levels.. arggh.

I know I'm over thinking this.. but, as I said, It's fun/frustrating..

Now, This spreadsheet doesn't take into consideration STYLE. It seems if I want to brew a pale ale vs a dark stout.. some numbers would want to change..

 

[Yooper]

I wouldn't brew "to style" except for maybe some more sulfate in IPAs.

I'd really consider just getting the minimum amount of additions, and the beer will be better than if you use too much.

In my opinion "less is more" really applies. Get your mash pH in range, and go ahead and keep the sulfate/choride/calcium where it is (or add a tiny bit of salts if you have to) but don't go overboard and shoot for a water profile from a region as you don't know what the brewery did with, say, "Dublin water".

It's true that the water in the UP is hard, but I don't know why that was brought up. Starting with RO water in my case gives me a "clean slate" and I do make very nice pale ales as a matter of fact.

I said the chloride was on the high side- you generally want 100 ppm as the maximum, and half of that is even better in my opinion. You probably don't need the gypsum OR calcium chloride, but I'm having trouble reading those results/additions in the post for some reason.

 

[helibrewer]

Thanks again to all..
Yooper.. You mentioned my Cl is high. It's only 8ppm.. according to EZ the acceptable range is 0-150

The whole thing is fun.. but, frustrating at the same time.. Considering my water profile is constant.. at least for this learning process.. it changes a bit during the year..
Ca: 20ppm; Mg 18.5ppm; Na 8ppm; Cl: 8ppm; Sulfate(SO4): 18.5ppm; HCO3: 158ppm; Total Alkalinity: 130ppm and Total Hardness: 131ppm.

With just 2G mash water and 2G sparge water.. UNDILUTED with the grains I'm using, the pH is 5.68.. a bit high and the Ca is low at 20ppm (range should be 50-150) and the SO4 is low at 19ppm (should be 50-350) and the Cl/SO4 ratio is low at .43 and should be above .77

If I modify the water by 50% RO, the pH drops a bit to 5.63; Ca drops to 10; SO4 drops to 9 but the Mg drops to 9 and should be between 10-30ppm.. of course the Na and Cl cut in half too.. but the ratio is still at .43

However, if I take the 50/50 water and add 1gm Gypsum, 1.5gm CaCl2, 1gm MgSO4 and 1 oz of acidulated malt... everything falls into place beautifully for the generic spreadsheet. The resulting water profile is
Ca: 94(50-150); Mg: 15(10-30); Na:4(0-150); Cl: 100(0-250); SO4: 109(50-350); Cl/SO4 ratio: .92(.77-1.3).. What isn't beautiful is that the effective Alkalinity is reading -39 and the Residual Alkalinity is -115. Also my CA and SO4 seem a bit low.
So, I'm at the point of... How do I get my alkalinity up while maintaining salt balances and pH levels.. arggh.

I know I'm over thinking this.. but, as I said, It's fun/frustrating..

Now, This spreadsheet doesn't take into consideration STYLE. It seems if I want to brew a pale ale vs a dark stout.. some numbers would want to change..

What are these additions doing to your alkalinity (CaCO3, not effective or residual)?

You generally want the very low Residual Alkalinity for lighter colored beers.
I also add the gypsum and CaCl only to my mash water, that's where the calcium provides it's benefit. Ca "neutralizes" alkalinity in the mash by reacting with phytins thus providing H+ ions.

Any other additions I add to the kettle after sparging. My sparge water gets treated with Phosphoric acid to a pH in the low 6's (no salt additions).

The last water you proposed (50/50 plus gypsum) looked very good for making an APA/IPA.

 

[HopSong]

Hey Heli.. still have to meet you sometime... There is a Mashing talk at Beerocrats at BevPeople tonight.

Anyhow, thanks for the input. Regarding your comment on my "last water".. and the comment above on CaCO3.. the Effective Alkalinity is CaCO3 in the EZWater spreadsheet. It's showing as a -39

 

[helibrewer]

Hey Heli.. still have to meet you sometime... There is a Mashing talk at Beerocrats at BevPeople tonight.

Anyhow, thanks for the input. Regarding your comment on my "last water".. and the comment above on CaCO3.. the Effective Alkalinity is CaCO3 in the EZWater spreadsheet. It's showing as a -39

I'm back on shift today so can't go to the meeting, I want to but my work sked never seems to cooperate.

I guess since you didn't add any chalk your carbonate ion stayed the same (158ppm)...your Calcium additions effectively reduce this to generate the Effective Hardness and Residual Alkalinity numbers....the carbonate is still chemically there so it can't be a negative number...the spreadsheet applies your additions and generates them as "non-neutralized" equivalents.

Make Bob explain it tonight

 

[HopSong]

Bob doesn't like to talk about water.. he thinks it's over hyped.. Maybe one of the brew science minded guys like Mike might be able to help.

Hbg reports HCO3.. but also reference Carbonate.. very low.. 5ppm

I don't know how accurate some of numbers are.. they don't consider some minerals important.. so, some might be guesses.. But, your understanding of all this is far better 'n mine

BTW, isn't most of the water hardness I have considered temporary? Pretty much gone after boiling if you let it cool and siphon it all but the precipitate? How does that play into the above?

 

[biestie]

You don't want to adjust the pH with salts, you just use the salts to get the chloride and sulfate (etc) in range.

Your chloride looks pretty high, so I wouldn't add any CaCl2. As long as your Calcium is 50 +/-, you're fine.

Use lactic acid, phosphoric acid, or acid malt to adjust the pH down.

Do you say not to adjust ph with salts based on his specific profile? Our in general? Seems when i adjust ro water, adding salts to get appropriate levels of cl, mg, and cl to sulfate ratio, it "puts" my Ph on range.

 

[Yooper]

Do you say not to adjust ph with salts based on his specific profile? Our in general? Seems when i adjust ro water, adding salts to get appropriate levels of cl, mg, and cl to sulfate ratio, it "puts" my Ph on range.

It may- but the goal is to add the salts for flavor and yeast health, not to control pH. You never have to add magnesium- there is plenty in malt (and too much has a taste as well as a laxative effect). I don't mess with Cl to sulfate ratio as it is really pointless.

 

[billl]

"It's true that the water in the UP is hard, but I don't know why that was brought up. Starting with RO water in my case gives me a "clean slate" and I do make very nice pale ales as a matter of fact. "

It wasn't meant to be a knock at all - just an illustration of how different brewers need to take different approaches based on their local water. You've basically got to start with pretty much 100% RO water to brew an APA. That is pretty unusual and isn't something the OP needs to do.

 

[kylevester]

If you want to match a particular water profile, your best be is to start with distilled and add minerals.

Me? I don't really worry about it too much. I use the stuff from the store labeled "drinking water" and add pH 5.2 stabilizer to it and make damn good beers. But I also don't worry about nailing every little aspect with a style. Life's too short to worry about that and I don't care about winning awards. I use my malt, hops, and yeast to style and go with neutral water. And you know what? The beers come out very nice and to style. Add small amounts of minerals and salts to an RO or "drinking water" profile and you're good.

Here's a hint: breweries do one of two things -- carbon filter the water and use it for all styles or purchase an RO unit and add minerals. Either way, you're good.

 

[HopSong]

Ok.. I think I have a good water/salt mix... According to EZ Water... All of the numbers in the Resulting Water Profile look great.. but, as mentioned above.. In Step 3 of the spreadsheet, The estimated room temp Mash pH is 5.47.. still a tiny bit too high..

But the thing I don't understand is: It shows, as mentioned above that the Effective Alkalinity (CaCO3ppm) is -39 (minus 39) and the Residual Alkalinity is -115 (minus 115) What does that mean????

Listening to some of the seminars on AHA, most specifically, the Water Panel, Low RA is great for Pale Ales.. which is my main focus. but what do these minus numbers mean???

 

[Yooper]

Ok.. I think I have a good water/salt mix... According to EZ Water... All of the numbers in the Resulting Water Profile look great.. but, as mentioned above.. In Step 3 of the spreadsheet, The estimated room temp Mash pH is 5.47.. still a tiny bit too high..

But the thing I don't understand is: It shows, as mentioned above that the Effective Alkalinity (CaCO3ppm) is -39 (minus 39) and the Residual Alkalinity is -115 (minus 115) What does that mean????

Listening to some of the seminars on AHA, most specifically, the Water Panel, Low RA is great for Pale Ales.. which is my main focus. but what do these minus numbers mean???

5.47 is a perfect mash pH- it's not high at all.

To get the scoop on RA, several posts by AJdeLange in the brewing science forum address it. In short, you're good with a lower RA.

 

[RumRiverBrewer]

Check this out:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

The coverage in the current printed revision of the book I found very helpful.

Also, when I'm working on water profiles, I use both EZ Water and Palmer's water spreadsheet and compare the results, just to confirm things. They tend to come in very close to one another and confirm the additions I add because I'm not a professional chemist..