Water Chemistry, is there an online plug and play calculator?

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

Good evening guys!

Ive been excited to receive my water chemistry results from Ward Lab and today I did. I have taken a screen shot of the results attached to this forum. I believe everything seems to be some-what normal(Hopefully?)(not sure if TDS is okay or not lol), the only thing that will definitely need to be adjusted is my pH which needs to be lowered to around 5.2-5.6(from 7.6). I wanted to post my results because I was wondering if anyone could give me their input on what I should be really focusing on, in my results which will need to be adjusted for brewing my 5 gal batches, usually; ales, low IPAs and Belgiums. Thank you! If there is a plug-and-play website where I could plug in all my numbers and what type of beer I'm brewing and they could tell me how to adjust my water for my 5 gal BIAB batches??....so far in my research I hav'nt been able to find something thats basically "Idiot-proof" lol.

I currently use the BIAB system, if anyone could help shed light on when to add the salts and baking soda to adjust the water chemistry for the brew session...can I add it all at the beginning of mash in? or are their specific times? If there was just one time of the brew session you'd add in all the necessary additives, when would you do it? Thank you!!

 

[3 Dawg Night]

I'm a big fan of Brewer's Friend. It gives pretty good guidance on water adjustments.

 

[Sammy86]

Looks like you've got some good water!
There are a ton of water calculators out there!

Brewfather, Brewers Friend, Bru'n Water. Each is unique in their own way. I personally use Bru'n water...Donate the $10 for the enhanced version...some will say its too difficult, its really not. I literally watched 1 youtube video and asked a few questions here and figured it out.

As with most things in life i try to keep things simple...i focus my additions with gypsum, calcium chloride and epsom salt...sometimes good old table salt if absolutely necessary and some lactic acid and you'll be good to go.

Here is a link to the water chemistry for dummies thread that I highly recommend you read A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

Good luck!

 

[Bigdaddyale]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020817202500/http://www.brewery.org:80/Software.htmlWater Chemistry Calculators
BreWater 3.0, by Ken Schwartz, a utility for working with water chemistry
Download file (zipped)
Problems with an AOL ftp link? Get copy via http ............. CLICK ON THIS LINK TO DOWNLOAD A ZIP FILE
Questions? E-mail the author, [email protected]
MAKE SURE TO READ THE .TXT FILE FIRST. VRUBN.300.DLL MUST BE INSTALLED MANUALLY

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Here is a link to the water chemistry for dummies thread that I highly recommend you read A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

... and the "Cliff Notes" can be read here: Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

Looks like you've got some good water!
There are a ton of water calculators out there!

Brewfather, Brewers Friend, Bru'n Water. Each is unique in their own way. I personally use Bru'n water...Donate the $10 for the enhanced version...some will say its too difficult, its really not. I literally watched 1 youtube video and asked a few questions here and figured it out.

As with most things in life i try to keep things simple...i focus my additions with gypsum, calcium chloride and epsom salt...sometimes good old table salt if absolutely necessary and some lactic acid and you'll be good to go.

Here is a link to the water chemistry for dummies thread that I highly recommend you read A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

Good luck!

Thank you!

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

I'm a big fan of Brewer's Friend. It gives pretty good guidance on water adjustments.

Illcheck it out thanks!

 

[mabrungard]

Brewing water chemistry calculators are a panacea if you don't understand why you're adjusting the water. I strongly recommend that you visit the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website to gain the basic knowledge of why and how to adjust your brewing water.

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

Brewing water chemistry calculators are a panacea if you don't understand why you're adjusting the water. I strongly recommend that you visit the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website to gain the basic knowledge of why and how to adjust your brewing water.

Wow! Thank you sir for commenting on my post. I will read your water knowledge section and get back to you. I have done some studying on this topic, as a marine engineer myself, I have a background of it. I will get back to you with questions if you dont mind..lol thanks!

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

Brewing water chemistry calculators are a panacea if you don't understand why you're adjusting the water. I strongly recommend that you visit the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website to gain the basic knowledge of why and how to adjust your brewing water.

a lot of valuable knowledge, thank you.
If you could please take a look at my water sample and let me know what your general thoughts are on it, I would appreciate that.
From your readings, looks like I have low calcium (I usually brew ales) so increasing that.
I have a high pH and should be lowered to 5.3 for most of my brews, I wasnt able to find out what you recommend for additions to lower pH before mashing in?
I have really low Chloride and sulfate levels which I suppose is a good thing unless I want to make those juicy IPAs, which I sometimes do, so increasing the levels slightly may be a future practice in my brewery.
besides this, Im bot sure.
Any thoughts? thanks

 

[NewJersey]

The grain will lower PH. I thought online calculators account for that, no?

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

The grain will lower PH. I thought online calculators account for that, no?

Not the ones ive been trying which seems to be just about all of them..

 

[marc1]

Not the ones ive been trying which seems to be just about all of them..

Brewers friend does:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/
Your grist can have a big effect on mash pH.

You can't make an educated guess on predicted mash pH without the grist. I'm not sure where you're looking but if there's a water chemistry calculator that doesn't take that into account for predicting mash pH then it's going to be... unreliable.

 

[Birrofilo]

the only thing that will definitely need to be adjusted is my pH which needs to be lowered to around 5.2-5.6(from 7.6).

As others have already said, maybe by a passing note, it is important to understand that you do not need or want to correct water pH, but mash pH. Mash pH depends from the kind of grains you are using and from the kind of water you are using.

Your water is pretty normal so I suggest you just insert its profile in a spreadsheet or program.
Then, for each beer, you insert the grain bill and the spreadsheet or program will tell you the expected mash pH for that water-grist combination.

Then and only then, if the pH is outside from a desirable range, or from your precise pH target, you use the calculator to modify the water (the mash, actually) to bring it to your desired pH.

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

As others have already said, maybe by a passing note, it is important to understand that you do not need or want to correct water pH, but mash pH. Mash pH depends from the kind of grains you are using and from the kind of water you are using.

Your water is pretty normal so I suggest you just insert its profile in a spreadsheet or program.
Then, for each beer, you insert the grain bill and the spreadsheet or program will tell you the expected mash pH for that water-grist combination.

Then and only then, if the pH is outside from a desirable range, or from your precise pH target, you use the calculator to modify the water (the mash, actually) to bring it to your desired pH.

thank you! this makes so much sense now to me. I really appreciate it. do you have any recommendations on a calculator? May be one that you use? thanks

 

[VikeMan]

The grain will lower PH. I thought online calculators account for that, no?

Not the ones ive been trying which seems to be just about all of them..

I don't know of any mash pH calculators that don't take the impact of the makeup of the grain bill into account, at least crudely (some older ones) or very explicitly. Is there a particular calculator where you're seeing something different?

 

[tracer bullet]

I'm a big fan of Brewer's Friend. It gives pretty good guidance on water adjustments.

As much as I like and use the site, I can't for the life of me see anywhere on that page where you enter a grain bill. I'm expecting to see something like the page where you enter a grain bill and it gives you estimated gravities.

Do you have to fill in another page where you formulate a recipe and carry it over or something? Maybe this is the "record ID" part?

(Asking here because OP might use it and get confused as well so it is kind of related!)

 

[marc1]

As much as I like and use the site, I can't for the life of me see anywhere on that page where you enter a grain bill. I'm expecting to see something like the page where you enter a grain bill and it gives you estimated gravities.

Do you have to fill in another page where you formulate a recipe and carry it over or something? Maybe this is the "record ID" part?

(Asking here because OP might use it and get confused as well so it is kind of related!)

This is on the page I linked above:

 

[Birrofilo]

thank you! this makes so much sense now to me. I really appreciate it. do you have any recommendations on a calculator? May be one that you use? thanks

I use two Excel spreadsheets:
For a first approximation, playing with salts and resulting values, I use Palmers'. He made a Spreadsheet probably called "water adjustment tool" or something similar. You don't insert the exact grain bill in this spreadsheet, just the general style of the beer. It makes very easy the comparison between your expected element content and for each element, the value interval considered adequate for the style you are brewing. This is very intuitive. The fact that it uses a general beer style rather than your exact grist will make it a bit less precise.

When I am "in the ballpark", I switch to Bru'n water, you find his spreadsheet in the signature of user Martin Brungard, @mabrungard . This spreadsheet allows you to input your grain bill, you will have to look on the internet or in the info you received with your grains, for the values to insert. This is less intuitive and a bit more work, but after playing with it a bit it is clear.

There is another instrument I still have to play with, by user @Silver_Is_Money , Mash made easy, you will find it in his signature. For what I understand, this will give you very similar results to any other instrument for "normal" grists and waters, but will apply different calculations (different from the Kolbach equations) in certain cases which deviate from the most usual cases. It's presumably more precise in those cases.

Many software allow you to calculate the salt and acid additions (or water dilution) but sometimes software are "overkill" for my needs and can be un-free ;-)

You can find free software though, one of those, Calcoliamo birra, is for Android, also exists in English, and allows you the calculation of the water modification given a certain grist.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There is another instrument I still have to play with, by user @Silver_Is_Money , Mash made easy, you will find it in his signature. For what I understand, this will give you very similar results to any other instrument for "normal" grists and waters, but will apply different calculations (different from the Kolbach equations) in certain cases which deviate from the most usual cases. It's presumably more precise in those cases.

This is quite a misunderstanding of Mash Made Easy.

1st, Mash Made Easy makes no 'intentional' attempt to mimic the results of "other instruments". I went on my own and started honing MME into the spreadsheet that it finally is today because I felt there were obvious flaws in the approach and/or presumptions of many "other instruments". I openly admit to having made a number of wrong turns and presumptions and discovered bugs along the way, and I've actively corrected for same as MME actively progresses in version release. Similar output to that of "other instruments" for some mashing conditions is often merely coincidental.

2nd, MME does not automatically deviate form Kolbach's method of determining the downward pH shift induced by calcium and magnesium in the mash water. The user must request MME to deviate via altering the "Kolbach pH Shift Multiplier" value manually. The reasoning and logic behind this is twofold. First, a number of years ago AJ deLange noticed that Kolbach did not measure calcium and magnesium induced pH drop within the mash at all, but rather he quantified it post boil and cooling at "knockout". The real downward shift AJ said he was measuring "during the actual mash" from additions of calcium and magnesium was often only in the ballpark of 50%-60% of what Kolbach predicted for knockout (and which "other instruments" apply mistakenly to the mash). Then in June of 2015 two research Chemists, Roger Barth and Ramaaz Zaman published a paper titled "Influence of Strike Water Alkalinity and Hardness on Mash pH" in the "Journal of the American Society of Brewing Chemists 73(3):240-242" that totally blew Kolbach out of the water, and for some malts went even further than did AJ in measuring downward pH shift deviation for calcium, whereby for certain common malts the downward calcium induced pH shift within the mash proper was observed to be on the order of only as little as 1/4 of what Kolbach predicts, and for others about half of what Kolbach predicts, and values in-between.

3rd, Kai Troester (Braukaiser) observed that extant BC (buffering coefficient or capacity) data is derived in what is referred to as a "Congress Mash" utilizing pulverized malts and unmalted grains. He further observed that for grains that were crushed to various real world mill gaps that are nowhere near pulverization, the measured BC is noticeably lower than for pulverized, and he quantified as to how much lower BC is in relation to "mill gap" settings for crush. Thus MME uniquely offers (again via user choice) to allow one to modify BC with respect to mill gap, using Kai's relationship. An included mill gap "calculator" on the main page suggests the modification multiplier to be applied, but the user must choose to manually enter this value into the "Grist Buffer Multiplier" cell. The observation here is that the release of malt acids is somewhat akin to the release of malt sugars within the mash. The finer the crush, the greater the yield or release.

If the "Kolbach pH shift Multiplier" is set to 1, then Kolbach's downward shift is fully applied to the mash, and in this MME then follows "other instruments". If the "Grist Buffer Multiplier" is set to 1, then MME makes no attempt to modify pulverized grist measured BC's, and once again is presumed to be more akin to at least some "other instruments".

Lastly, MME uniquely permits manual overrides for malts, unmalted grains, and adjuncts DI pH and BC, for those who actually expend the time and effort to measure/quantify these values for their own lots of malts, etc... via pH meter and titration respectively.

 

[tracer bullet]

This is on the page I linked above:

Hah, got it. Once you see it.... Thanks!

 

[NewJersey]

Wake me up when there's an easy app based tool, not a clunky spreadsheet

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... an easy app based tool ...

How much would you be willing to pay to use an app like that?

 

[3 Dawg Night]

Wake me up when there's an easy app based tool, not a clunky spreadsheet

The web interface for Brewer's Friend works great on my phone.

 

[brian320fo]

If there is a plug-and-play website where I could plug in all my numbers and what type of beer I'm brewing and they could tell me how to adjust my water for my 5 gal BIAB batches??

Try this:

Phantom Wing Brewing

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

I use two Excel spreadsheets:
For a first approximation, playing with salts and resulting values, I use Palmers'. He made a Spreadsheet probably called "water adjustment tool" or something similar. You don't insert the exact grain bill in this spreadsheet, just the general style of the beer. It makes very easy the comparison between your expected element content and for each element, the value interval considered adequate for the style you are brewing. This is very intuitive. The fact that it uses a general beer style rather than your exact grist will make it a bit less precise.

When I am "in the ballpark", I switch to Bru'n water, you find his spreadsheet in the signature of user Martin Brungard, @mabrungard . This spreadsheet allows you to input your grain bill, you will have to look on the internet or in the info you received with your grains, for the values to insert. This is less intuitive and a bit more work, but after playing with it a bit it is clear.

There is another instrument I still have to play with, by user @Silver_Is_Money , Mash made easy, you will find it in his signature. For what I understand, this will give you very similar results to any other instrument for "normal" grists and waters, but will apply different calculations (different from the Kolbach equations) in certain cases which deviate from the most usual cases. It's presumably more precise in those cases.

Many software allow you to calculate the salt and acid additions (or water dilution) but sometimes software are "overkill" for my needs and can be un-free ;-)

You can find free software though, one of those, Calcoliamo birra, is for Android, also exists in English, and allows you the calculation of the water modification given a certain grist.

thank you! His software looks interesting. ill play around with it next brew day coming up

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

Try this:

Phantom Wing Brewing

I used this on my last brew day...

so all I need to do is add 1.7 g of CaCL and 3.13 g of Gypsum and .54g of baking soda and I will get a mash pH of 5.26? thats it right? I am reading the directions right, right? lol

 

[brian320fo]

In theory that would be correct given the info you put into the calculator. However, I find it difficult to believe that your estimated mash pH is 5.3 when using just your base water profile (untreated), especially since your alkalinity is 85. The estimated mash pH you need to put into this program is figured WITHOUT adding in any salts or acid yet, it's the estimated mash pH based on your base water profile only. Usually the pH for a wheat beer will probably be around 5.7ish if using distilled water but for your water profile it might be as high as 5.9 or so. Put your recipe into Bru'n Water or BeerSmith or whatever software you use along with your base water profile only and use the predicted pH from that.

 

[pwortiz]

Wake me up when there's an easy app based tool, not a clunky spreadsheet

Brewfather - huge fan of that. I did have someone run me through its use up front, but if I can use it, anyone can. Ended up getting the best compliment ever after sharing batches I made with it: "Dude, this doesn't taste like your beer."

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

Brewfather - huge fan of that. I did have someone run me through its use up front, but if I can use it, anyone can. Ended up getting the best compliment ever after sharing batches I made with it: "Dude, this doesn't taste like your beer."

thanks im going to use their app for sure to follow my fermentation and to keep records of my beers. going to use Phanton brewing to calculate my water additions

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

In theory that would be correct given the info you put into the calculator. However, I find it difficult to believe that your estimated mash pH is 5.3 when using just your base water profile (untreated), especially since your alkalinity is 85. The estimated mash pH you need to put into this program is figured WITHOUT adding in any salts or acid yet, it's the estimated mash pH based on your base water profile only. Usually the pH for a wheat beer will probably be around 5.7ish if using distilled water but for your water profile it might be as high as 5.9 or so. Put your recipe into Bru'n Water or BeerSmith or whatever software you use along with your base water profile only and use the predicted pH from that.

yeah man my waters pH is 7.9, so I got that totally wrong. I will need to add acid to my next batch. is there a specific brew acid you know about I need? 85% Phosphoric Acid is something I can pick up at my local shop? thanks

 

[brian320fo]

yeah man my waters pH is 7.9, so I got that totally wrong. I will need to add acid to my next batch. is there a specific brew acid you know about I need? 85% Phosphoric Acid is something I can pick up at my local shop? thanks

Most shops probably do not carry the 85% version of Phosphoric Acid but most will carry 10% and some the 25%. If you do go the 85% route, be careful handling it. You can get it online at Duda Diesel. That bottle will last you a VERY long time!

 

[brian320fo]

yeah man my waters pH is 7.9, so I got that totally wrong. I will need to add acid to my next batch. is there a specific brew acid you know about I need? 85% Phosphoric Acid is something I can pick up at my local shop? thanks

Post your grain bill here and I'll see what I come up with. Also include the volume of water you're going to use for your mash. I'll walk you through on how to use the calculator.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

To bring 5 gallons of your 85 mg/L (ppm) Alkalinity and pH 7.6 water to a nominal Alkalinity of ~10 mg/L (ppm) and a nominal pH of ~5.4-5.5 requires the addition of one of the following:

~2.5 mL of 88% Lactic Acid
~2.8 mL of 80% Lactic Acid
~26 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid
~7.7 mL of 30% Phosphoric Acid
~2.3 mL of 75% Phosphoric Acid
~1.9 mL of 85% Phosphoric Acid
~7.8 mL of AMS(CRS)
~2.2 grams of Citric Acid

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

85 mg/L of Alkalinity (as CaCO3) - 10 mg/L of same = 75 mg/L to be removed (whereby to achieve ~ pH 5.5)
The molecular weight of CaCO3 is 100.0869
The Ca++ ion has a valence of 2 (thus the ++)
Therefore the Eq Wt. (equivalent weight) of CaCO3 = 100.0869/2 = 50.04345
75 mg/L / 50.04345 ~= 1.5 mEq/L of Alkalinity to be removed via the addition of an acid
5 Gallons x 3.7854 L/Gal. = 18.927 Liters
18.927 L. x 1.5 mEq/L = 28.4 mEq of Alkalinity to be removed to achieve a pH of ~5.5

At 5.5 pH the relative mEq/mL acid strengths of the various acids listed above are ~:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
88% Lactic Acid ~= 11.51 mEq/mL
80% Lactic Acid ~= 10.30 mEq/mL
10% Phosphoric Acid ~= 1.094 mEq/mL
30% Phosphoric Acid ~= 3.68 mEq/mL
75% Phosphoric Acid ~= 12.31 mEq/mL
85% Phosphoric Acid ~= 14.92 mEq/mL
AMS(CRS) ~= 3.66 mEq/mL
Citric Acid (Anhydrous) ~= 13.08 mEq/gram

Simply divide mEq's of Alkalinity to be removed by one of the above acids mEq's/mL or mEq's/gram.

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

Post your grain bill here and I'll see what I come up with. Also include the volume of water you're going to use for your mash. I'll walk you through on how to use the calculator.

Brian I really appreciate you taking your time to help me.
Grain Bill:
5.25 lbs of Rahr 2-Row Malt
4.25 lbs of Rahr white Wheat
1lb Flaked Oats

My volume is 7.25 gallons with no sparging. Just the BIAB method with squeezing the Bag at mash out(170).

Thanks!

 

[Samson's Brew&Ski]

85 mg/L of Alkalinity (as CaCO3) - 10 mg/L of same = 75 mg/L to be removed (whereby to achieve ~ pH 5.5)
The molecular weight of CaCO3 is 100.0869
The Ca++ ion has a valence of 2 (thus the ++)
Therefore the Eq Wt. (equivalent weight) of CaCO3 = 100.0869/2 = 50.04345
75 mg/L / 50.04345 ~= 1.5 mEq/L of Alkalinity to be removed via the addition of an acid
5 Gallons x 3.7854 L/Gal. = 18.927 Liters
18.927 L. x 1.5 mEq/L = 28.4 mEq of Alkalinity to be removed to achieve a pH of ~5.5

At 5.5 pH the relative mEq/mL acid strengths of the various acids listed above are ~:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
88% Lactic Acid ~= 11.51 mEq/mL
80% Lactic Acid ~= 10.30 mEq/mL
10% Phosphoric Acid ~= 1.094 mEq/mL
30% Phosphoric Acid ~= 3.68 mEq/mL
75% Phosphoric Acid ~= 12.31 mEq/mL
85% Phosphoric Acid ~= 14.92 mEq/mL
AMS(CRS) ~= 3.66 mEq/mL
Citric Acid (Anhydrous) ~= 13.08 mEq/gram

Simply divide mEq's of Alkalinity to be removed by one of the above acids mEq's/mL or mEq's/gram.

This is wonderful! I followed the math as well and I am definitely going to save this for my next batch.
could I ask, out of all 8 of those different acids...which one do you prefer out of them? Does it depend on the beer you're brewing or just preference?

Thank you!

 

[tracer bullet]

10% phosphoric is fairly easy to find, not scary to store or handle, and basically not noticeable flavor-wise in normal amounts. It's in tons of sodas. It's what I'd recommend.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I agree that 10% Phosphoric Acid is a flavor neutral choice. White Wheat malt and Flaked Oats are both highly basic with respect to the desired mash pH target, and they make up nearly 50% of your grist, so additional acid demand is required to be added to the mash water whereby to address your waters Alkalinity combined with the basic nature of the grist and mash at ~ pH 5.5. And then I would recommend a second and smaller addition of acid to be introduced pre-boil whereby to assure that your Wort enters fermentation at approximately a pH of 5.1 to 5.2. Here is how I see it using my 'Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet:



PS: Notice the recommended addition of 3.3 grams of presumed fresh Calcium Chloride prills to your 7.5 gallons of water.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Could I ask, out of all 8 of those different acids...which one do you prefer out of them? Does it depend on the beer you're brewing or just preference?

It does depend upon the beer you're brewing, and due to it's being flavor neutral, Phosphoric Acid might prove to be the best choice for the recipe you've provided. That said, in Germany Lactic Acid is likely to be the predominant go-to choice, but due to your water being so Alkaline combined with your grist being so highly basic with respect to pH 5.5 you would need to add so much of it that it is likely you might taste it.