water chemistry help

[mcbar]

Hi folks,

Any suggestions on what (if anything) I should be adding to my water? I'm not having any particular issues - just looking for the next variable to tinker with I guess. I'm doing mostly 5 gallon batches BIAB full volume mash.

Here's my city's water report:
http://www.winnipeg.ca/waterandwaste/water/testResults/Winnipeg.stm

I'd prefer not to use RO water. I can't bring myself to pay extra for something that comes out of the tap.

Thanks!

 

[MagicMatt]

It's not bad water. I know you said you don't want to supplement with additional water, but your bicarbonate level could stand to be reduced in half.

My suggestion would be to dilute your tap water 50% with distilled or RO water. You can use this calculator from Brewer's Friend (http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/) to help from there. You enter your tap water info, how much (if any) you are diluting, and your grist info. It will estimate the mash pH and you can then adjust your salt additions accordingly.

The rule of thumb I use is to get the total alkalinity below 35ppm, and then add 1 tsp of CaCl2 to the mash. Usually (depending on the grist) I will also need to add a little more CaCl2 or even some CaSO4 to either the mash (if pH is still too high) or the boil (if the mash pH was OK) to get the correct balanced ratio of SO4:Cl I'm looking for.

For darker beers, I generally need to use less DI/RO water (if any at all) to get the mash pH in line.

 

[mcbar]

Thanks for the advice Matt. It's been a long time since I studied chemistry!

Is the purpose of the CaCl2 and CaSO4 just to reduce the mash pH? What about the Cl:SO4 ratio?

What total alkalinity do you shoot for when doing a dark beer?

Thanks again! If you can recommend any good reading feel free because I definitely have some learning to do.

 

[MagicMatt]

Thanks for the advice Matt. It's been a long time since I studied chemistry!

Is the purpose of the CaCl2 and CaSO4 just to reduce the mash pH? What about the Cl:SO4 ratio?

What total alkalinity do you shoot for when doing a dark beer?

Thanks again! If you can recommend any good reading feel free because I definitely have some learning to do.

Yes the salts are to help lower the mash pH (when used in the mash water, obviously).

In short, the chloride-sulfate ratio is what gauges how the final beer will taste. Generally >1.0 will have a slightly more malty perception; <1.0 will have slightly more bitter aspects.

I'm no expert on the subject, but I've read lots of good info from the likes of Kai and AJ. Here's a good, easy read for beginning to dive into the water chemistry aspect of brewing. It's a great place to start, and coupled with the mash chemistry calculator I linked above, should get you in the ballpark of making better beer.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

 

[mcbar]

Thanks!

 

[Yooper]

The chloride:sulfate ratio is really immaterial.

Here's why- say you have a chloride of 10 and a sulfate of 5. That's 2:1 towards "malty", but both are so low as to be immaterial. If you have a chloride of 200 and a sulfate of 400, that's a 1:2 (towards 'bitter') but the beer would be terrible. It's better to have thought out what amounts will make the best beer, regardless of any ratio between them.

What matters more is the amount. Just like when you put salt and pepper on your food- you don't add more salt to 'erase' the better- it's the total amount you use.

Same is true with these salts that you use as flavoring in your beer. It's the same principle. While it does drive mash pH down a tad (not really all that much), it's all about flavor contribution.

for more (better) info on that: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109



Aside from adding flavoring salts like gypsum and calcium chloride, you really don't want to think too much about anything except the mash pH. That is THE most important aspect of water chemistry that will impact the beer. It doesn't really matter if you have 50 ppm of calcium, or 135 ppm of sulfate, etc, if your mash pH is 5.9. The beer will suffer for it.

The idea is to get the mash pH into range for the best conversion and flavor, and then you can tweak these flavoring salts if you'd like.

Many people try to estimate their probable mash pH by using a brewing spreadsheet. There are several free ones available, but I would recommend Bru'nwater or Brewer's Friend. I'd stay away from EZ water. Although EZ is, um, easy, to use it has not be very accurate in any brews that I've used it in and I used to use it every time to check to see how close it was. Bru'nwater is my favorite, although there is a learning curve to that one.

 

[mcbar]

Thanks Yooper, that makes good intuitive sense. So the salts are more like flavoring additions - their effect on pH is marginal.

I do know that my water is hard, but I haven't noticed any issues thus far. I'm interested to see if lowering the pH will result in an observable change in my lighter beers.

Thanks again!

 

[mcbar]

One other question - is it possible to use acidulated malt to reduce total alkalinity rather than mixing with distilled/RO water? I'm assuming some of the software mentioned would help with this?

 

[GotPushrods]

One other question - is it possible to use acidulated malt to reduce total alkalinity rather than mixing with distilled/RO water? I'm assuming some of the software mentioned would help with this?

Yes, but remember with every acid comes it's anion. With the lactic acid in acid malt you will increase lactate, which will have a flavor impact at higher levels. Above certain thresholds of alkalinity (which are subject to each persons own tastes), you're still much better off diluting with RO than managing to keep the flavor impact of the acids at bay.

 

[MindenMan]

OP, you say you have hard water and here is a suggestion: boil the entire volume of water you will need the night before brewing and let cool. Some of the hardness will precipitate out overnight after boiling, and that may improve the flavor of your beer. I would ask Yooper as she is top shelf help in such matters.

 

[mcbar]

Thank you for the additional suggestions! This is turning out to be a very productive thread for me

I should have read more carefully and played around with the calculators before my previous post. With some tinkering I found that adding 2% acid malt (as suggested as a baseline in the post Yooper linked) to the grist of a light beer I've made before would bring me into ideal pH range, assuming I have accurate inputs. I will have to test to see if there are noticeable flavour improvements and/or lactic acid sourness at that level.

I would be willing to try boiling and decanting too - that would also give me an opportunity to add a bit of Kmeta overnight to reduce chloramines.

Thanks again!

 

[MagicMatt]

Just be forewarned that boiling to precipitate bicarbonates does work, but you need to decant as soon as possible. Don't boil and let it sit overnight in the kettle, because CO2 from the atmosphere will redissolve into the water and allow the precipitates to return into solution, essentially negating the effects of boiling in the first place.