Water chemistry actually matters....

[Islaybou]

First time brewing 2 months ago and I dived in head first. All-grain SMaSH 10 lbs 2-row and 6 oz Cascade with my own never-been-tested recipe. I didn’t have a mash-tun or a BIAB so I just poured the grain into some cheesecloth, tied it up, and steeped it for an hour in some hot water (around 165f). Sparged with a few gallons of even hotter water and then brought her to a boil. Added some hops, boiled for an hour, chilled, racked, and pitched yeast.

OG- 1.032
FG- 1.008

Hazy, astringent, bitter, gross.


Still determined to get it right I tried again. This time I bought a BIAB.

Same result but a bit better efficiency with an OG of 1.042.


Research revealed the culprit. I am on a well and have been brewing with a pH of 8+

About 4 doses of 5.2 stabilizer made a dramatic difference. OG of 1.050 with only 8.5 lbs 2-row and the beer was crystal clear (clear anyway), and delightful. Different recipe btw. It’s supposed to be that color.


So, apparently, water chemistry really does matter.

 

[Smellyglove]

And it doesn't taste salty? Alka-Seltzer-ish?

TBH The Five Star 5.2 imo shouldn't be on the shelves. It was designed for one brewery which had one type of water. I don't know how phosphoric acid would perform in well-water, but RO would be a good investment. If you water has that kind of alkalinity.

From the pictures your two first attempts were lighter than the last one, darker grains lower the pH. So you have a mix of both grist composition and the effect of the 5.2

 

[jjw5015]

don't bottle in corona bottles, get brown ones. Also 5.2 is snake oil. I'm on a well too and buy RO from wal-mart and build my target water profile using online calculators

 

[Robert65]

don't bottle in corona bottles, get brown ones. Also 5.2 is snake oil. I'm on a well too and buy RO from wal-mart and build my target water profile using online calculators

Heard Charlie Talley of 5 Star, who invented 5.2, on a podcast saying the stuff is indeed snake oil and does not work. Said a brewer came to him asking for a product to do what it claims. He got tired of trying to explain why it was impossible. Finally just took the fool"s money, whipped something up, and has happily been separating more fools from their money. Refreshing honesty, that.

If you're on a well with that kind of water, building from RO is always the best option.

By realizing the importance of water early in your brewing career, you have saved yourself a whole world of trouble!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The vertical line on the attached phosphoric acid titration chart indicates that phosphate buffering is de-facto non-existent from roughly pH 4 to pH 5.8, which is precisely the reason why 5.2 buffer (being phosphate based) simply can't work to buffer within the pH region for which it is claimed to work.

 

[MaxStout]

Forget about 5.2 Stabilizer. Go to the brew store and pick up some calcium chloride and gypsum. A couple bucks investment. Build your water from RO.

This is a good place to start when getting into brewing water. Just the bare basics but it will get you into the ballpark. You had a rough start on a few but better to learn early on. Your beers will get better and you'll be ahead of the game.

 

[Islaybou]

I have heard the criticism of 5.2 before, but it did do something to my pH as I tested it as I was adding it. I was literally using fish tank pH measuring strips which only test down to 6 so perhaps the 5.2 is able to bring it down to the 5.8 that Silver is talking about?

Either way, I’ll be looking into other options to obtain correct water chemistry!

 

[Islaybou]

I’m not noticing any flavor from it at all. I used it on the next two batches and actually tasted my water after adding it and couldn’t sense any change.

Good to know about the darker grains adding more to acidity! Thanks

And it doesn't taste salty? Alka-Seltzer-ish?

TBH The Five Star 5.2 imo shouldn't be on the shelves. It was designed for one brewery which had one type of water. I don't know how phosphoric acid would perform in well-water, but RO would be a good investment. If you water has that kind of alkalinity.

From the pictures your two first attempts were lighter than the last one, darker grains lower the pH. So you have a mix of both grist composition and the effect of the 5.2

 

[Islaybou]

I only bottle 1 corona bottle for display and to observe the clarity, color, and other visual aspects of the beer. Otherwise I brown bottle.

I think I will use RO water for my next brew and see if I notice a difference. I know I have a high iron content as well which I hear has detrimental effects on beer also.

don't bottle in corona bottles, get brown ones. Also 5.2 is snake oil. I'm on a well too and buy RO from wal-mart and build my target water profile using online calculators

 

[Smellyglove]

I only bottle 1 corona bottle for display and to observe the clarity, color, and other visual aspects of the beer. Otherwise I brown bottle.

I think I will use RO water for my next brew and see if I notice a difference. I know I have a high iron content as well which I hear has detrimental effects on beer also.

Just remember that you need to build a profile up from the RO water with different ions. Pure RO water would be strange.

 

[Islaybou]

Just remember that you need to build a profile up from the RO water with different ions. Pure RO water would be strange.

Are you saying to cut my well water with RO then?

 

[Smellyglove]

Are you saying to cut my well water with RO then?

Depends. You do not know your well water composition. But maybe? The point was that you want some minerals in the water, but just not as much as your well water has, and not as little (nothing) as pure RO water has.

But you can try it.

 

[Dave Sarber]

That would be a good start. But different beers need different water profiles. My tap water in southern Arizona is also extremely alkaline, so I use RO water, with additions for the particular beer I'm brewing. Gypsum and calcium chloride are something you need to have on your shelf.

Edit: somebody else posted while I was typing. RO water by itself does not have enough calcium by itself to keep your yeast healthy, unless you are using extracts.

 

[mabrungard]

They need to rename it 5.8 Stabilizer. It does not ever produce a pH of 5.2 unless the grist is teeming with dark grains. 5.8 does not produce good beer.

That product is a genuine stain on the otherwise fine name of 5 Star.

 

[Dave Sarber]

First time brewing 2 months ago and I dived in head first. All-grain SMaSH 10 lbs 2-row and 6 oz Cascade with my own never-been-tested recipe. I didn’t have a mash-tun or a BIAB so I just poured the grain into some cheesecloth, tied it up, and steeped it for an hour in some hot water (around 165f). Sparged with a few gallons of even hotter water and then brought her to a boil. Added some hops, boiled for an hour, chilled, racked, and pitched yeast.

OG- 1.032
FG- 1.008

Hazy, astringent, bitter, gross.
View attachment 638423

Still determined to get it right I tried again. This time I bought a BIAB.

Same result but a bit better efficiency with an OG of 1.042.
View attachment 638424

Research revealed the culprit. I am on a well and have been brewing with a pH of 8+

About 4 doses of 5.2 stabilizer made a dramatic difference. OG of 1.050 with only 8.5 lbs 2-row and the beer was crystal clear (clear anyway), and delightful. Different recipe btw. It’s supposed to be that color.
View attachment 638422

So, apparently, water chemistry really does matter.

Besides your water, you might want to drop the temp on your strike and sparge water. You're probably extracting a lot of tannins. Probably cutting back on hops a bit (OK, a lot!) wouldn't hurt either.

 

[mongoose33]

You may wish to go back to the beginning and start there. Winging it, while enjoyable at some level, isn't likely to produce much of value to you. Rebuild your understanding, and your beer will thank you for it. And your tongue.

All the above advice is excellent, and you have discovered an important truth: water matters, and matters a lot.

My city water comes from wells 1100 feet down. It's hard, alkaline, and appropriate for brewing probably only stouts. Because of that, I use RO water that I cut with a gallon of my tap water (and use a campden tablet to deal with the chlorine).

There are water calculators you can use to determine the best minerals and salts to dose your water to bring it to where it needs to be. Brunwater is one of those--Martin Brungard above, post #14, is the author of that. Look at his signature line. You put in the malts you're using, the water you're using (you need to know water composition if not RO water), and the spreadsheet will help you figure out the proper amount of additions.

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You can get a test of your water through Ward Labs in Nebraska. You pay your 'prox $40, they send you a container in which you place a sample, you send it back to them, and within a couple days you get (via email) a report. I've attached below mine, which will give you an idea of what you'd get.

****

Here's what got me really understanding water and how it interacts with grain. Think about places famous for certain types of beers. Where's Guinness from? Ireland? Their water is very alkaline. How about Pilsners? Pilsen, Germany. Their water is naturally very soft.

Here's the deal: to get very alkaline water down to the proper pH, you need something acidic. Very dark grain, such as used in Stouts, is kilned dark. The process makes it very acidic. If the grain is lightly kilned, then it isn't very acidic.

So think about the water where Guinness (a dark Stout) is made. The only way to bring the pH down is to use acidic (dark!) grain. Over time, with experimentation, the brewers figured out that they needed to brew dark beer. Only way to get it to work with their water.

Same with Pilsen (think light lager). The only way to keep from dropping the pH too much was to use lightly-kilned grains.

This is why spreadsheets like Martin's work: he's balancing the acidic contributions of the grains against what the water is to start, and then allowing for various water additions, finally ending with the relative composition of various minerals.

Sounds harder than it is, but you really need something like that to help you figure this out. If you know the composition of your water (and a Wards report is the easiest way), then you can also enter those figures and determine how much of your own water you might be able to use.

****
Here's my Ward's report:

 

[CascadesBrewer]

steeped it for an hour in some hot water (around 165f)

It was already mentioned, but 165F is not a good mash temp. Most beers should be mashed around 152F...with a general range of around 148F to 156F. In that range, a lower temp will give you a more fermentable wort (higher alcohol) and a higher mash temp will leave more unfermentable sugars. A 165F mash temp will likely produce poor efficiency and LOTS of unfermentable sugars/dextrins.

I agree with the general idea that "Water Chemistry Matters." For some people with good tap water, it is less important. The pH of your water is not as important as other aspects. Some of the people that have responded to this thread are VERY knowledgeable about water (I am not one of them), so feel free to post more info about your water and ask any questions.

 

[histo320]

Of course water matters, it's the key ingredient in beer.

I also saw the quality of my beers going up drastically after building from distilled water. I don't measure my Ph as the cost of an accurate Ph meter just doesn't make sense to me. I use BruNWater and Beersmith to both build my water and estimate my Ph. I was at one time worried about Ph but after seeing several seasoned brewers and a Brulosphy exbeeriment found that the finished product is unnoticeable to most people. Now obviously a Ph of 5.8 or 5.0 would be noticeable but from 5.3 to 5.4 isn't much of a difference.

 

[Saunassa]

I am on a well. Bwaywr is good but has some iron in it. I brew lots of blondes or Amber's and currently use half well and half well after new softener. Yes not great to use softened water but the beer turns out very good.
Currently I adjust the pH with either acidulated malt or lactic acid. Water has a pH of 7.2 and the act of doing that made a difference in beer quality and flavor.
Next up is to test and adjust minerals.