Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[filthyastronaut]

I was thinking more in the lines of acid, or acid malt.

I do use Lactic acid to make pH adjustments. It's just the high level of sulfate the first time around is probably causing extra astringency, and I'll fix that the next time around.

 

[Smellyglove]

I feel that high levels of Caso4 gives a sort of "papery-dry" feeling. But that might have been what you experienced too.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

This is my La Bici 5 Rabbits Vienna lager clone from the Session Beers book. Brewed a couple of months ago and bottled from the keg. I really like this beer! Warmish fermented with 34/70 and really coming into its own now that its almost gone! Great malty flavor but still crisp and dry. Damn, gotta brew more!

 

[MaryB]

Sampling my SMASH lager(Belgian Pilsner/Hallertau), ferment temps ranged from 60 to 72 at the end of 4 weeks. Not bad at all! 34/70 for yeast and no off flavors, clean malt/hop character shines through!

 

[applescrap]

[emoji121] [emoji109]

 

[Miraculix]

Just bottled my first warm fermented lager using 34/70, temp plateaued at 66 during active fermentation. Planning to lager in the bottle after normal bottle conditioning. So far disappointed in the flavor, especially when had next to Prost Pils, which is a delicious local pilsner from a German style brewery. Some hops were noticeable, sulfur that was abundant during fermentation was gone, and there were no solvent or fruity flavors, very clean, yet there is a pronounced astringency (different from hop bitterness) and the flavor was somewhat dull. Hoping biofine, conditioning, and lagering will fix it. There was a nice honey-like pilsner malt flavor lurking underneath, but very faint. Here's the recipe:

Title: 72 Hour Hold

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: German Pils
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.036
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV (standard): 5.27%
IBU (tinseth): 46.19
SRM (morey): 3.73

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - German - Pilsner (97%)
2 oz - German - Melanoidin (3%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: First Wort, IBU: 26.77
2 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 19.41

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 2 gal

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - Saflager - German Lager Yeast W-34/70
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 83%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 48 - 72 F

Rebrewing on Friday and gonna try a cooler but still warm temperature with Tradition instead of Hersbrucker, and no Melanoidin. Also Brewtan B.

How long did you leave it in primary? From my experience, at least three weeks are necessary to get things in a nice range. The yeast really needs time to settle and to clear things up. Rushing it will result in dull and strange flavors.

 

[filthyastronaut]

How long did you leave it in primary? From my experience, at least three weeks are necessary to get things in a nice range. The yeast really needs time to settle and to clear things up. Rushing it will result in dull and strange flavors.

2 weeks. Possible it was too short, but it did clear up quite well. They are brilliantly clear now in the bottle, and I'll taste one after another week and then probably wait one more week before putting them in the fridge to lager in the bottle.

 

[Miraculix]

2 weeks. Possible it was too short, but it did clear up quite well. They are brilliantly clear now in the bottle, and I'll taste one after another week and then probably wait one more week before putting them in the fridge to lager in the bottle.

I meant it more in a way of "clearing up the flavour", sorry for the misleading description.

 

[filthyastronaut]

I meant it more in a way of "clearing up the flavour", sorry for the misleading description.

No worries. If it did need more time in the primary the same cleaning up of flavor should still occur in the bottle.

 

[Miraculix]

No worries. If it did need more time in the primary the same cleaning up of flavor should still occur in the bottle.

Nope, not enough yeast left to do the job properly.

 

[filthyastronaut]

Nope, not enough yeast left to do the job properly.

I guess I'll just have to see. The yeast remaining in the beer for bottle conditioning are the hold outs that don't flocculate as quick and would be doing the job of cleaning up if I had left it in primary for just one more week. The same activity should still occur, albeit potentially slower.

 

[Miraculix]

It is mainly the yeast cake that does the clearing, not the few yeasties in suspension.

 

[filthyastronaut]

It is mainly the yeast cake that does the clearing, not the few yeasties in suspension.

This is a bit of homebrew common wisdom that I'm skeptical of. While it is possible that the yeast on the surface of the yeast cake will do some scavenging of undesirable compounds, flocculation is a property of yeast in scarce conditions, as a survival technique. I think it's more likely that yeast in suspension after most have dropped out would be active and scavenging what the other cells left behind. Furthermore, highly flocculating yeast, unless it's a really good performer, tends to attenuate less and leave behind more undesirable compounds (White Labs flocculation info: https://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default/files/Flocculation_help.pdf). I have no proof other than that source from just poking around the internet just now, but I'm not aware of any proof that the yeast cake is integral to cleaning up the beer. It's just something I've seen passed around from brewer to brewer. We can agree to disagree though. I'm just gonna give my Pils time in the bottle and see what happens.

 

[Miraculix]

Well, my beers that got bottled too early did not improve much, the ones given the same time on the cake did, but this might me biased, coincidence or both.

There is always a constant movement in the water, the water in the fermenter never stands still so the yeast at the bottom gets constantly new stuff to chew on, we have to keep this in mind.
I'll doubt that the lower attenuation has in reality something to do with the flocculation, I think this is just a correlation while not being strictly related. I guess it is rather related to some lack of specific enzymes which many of the higher flocculent yeasts have just in common, the lower flocculent strains have the enzymes to metabolise the bigger sugars, the lower flocculent ones simply don't.

A good example of extreme flocculation and extreme attenuation at the same time are kveik yeasts, just to show that it does not have to be correlated.

If it would be just about dropping out of solution, all those lower attenuative yeasts would sloooooowely continue to ferment in the bottle, but they do not, unless you give them something they can digest (for example sugar to carbonate the beer), then they happily continue to ferment. Which is why I rather explain it for myself with the lack of specific enzymes, to metabolize the bigger sugars, instead.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Nope, not enough yeast left to do the job properly.

I disagree. My experience has been that bulk conditioning might be faster a bottle conditioned beer will continue to change and usually improve in the bottle. YMMV

 

[Miraculix]

I disagree. My experience has been that bulk conditioning might be faster a bottle conditioned beer will continue to change and usually improve in the bottle. YMMV

I did not say that nothing happens, I did say that it is not enoughy to do it properly. This means that it is related to the amount of stuff that needs to be cleaned off and to the time you are willing to give it. And as I iknow from my own experince, those warm fermented lagers can be quite nasty when rushed. I got one here that took over half a year after botteling to get to a point where I would say it is drinkable, still A LOT of off flavours present. So in the case of warm fermented lager, it is whise to let the job be done by the whole team and not just a few of them floating around.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Fair enough!

 

[johnstod]

Hey guys I have been looking at doing a warm pilsner for the wife as I don't have a fridge big enough for my fv. Was just wondering what temps everyone pitches the yeast at I typically pitch rehydrated at 19c(66f) is this fine for 34/70?

 

[Miraculix]

Hey guys I have been looking at doing a warm pilsner for the wife as I don't have a fridge big enough for my fv. Was just wondering what temps everyone pitches the yeast at I typically pitch rehydrated at 19c(66f) is this fine for 34/70?

Sounds good to me!

 

[johnstod]

Sounds good to me!

Thanks, hopefully keeps swmbo happy

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks, hopefully keeps swmbo happy

Only thing I would advise (as you can read above) is that you give it sufficient time in primary, something like 3 or 4 weeks should do it.

Uh, and I love dry hopped pilsener with hallertauer mittelfrüh, but that's just my own preference.

 

[johnstod]

Only thing I would advise (as you can read above) is that you give it sufficient time in primary, something like 3 or 4 weeks should do it.

Uh, and I love dry hopped pilsener with hallertauer mittelfrüh, but that's just my own preference.

Thanks 3 weeks is fine, I will be bottle conditioning after that so will get another 2 weeks there.

Going to go standard Czech style with saaz up the wazoo

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks 3 weeks is fine, I will be bottle conditioning after that so will get another 2 weeks there.

Going to go standard Czech style with saaz up the wazoo

I just brewed an 1865 recipe ipa with almost only saaz. Did dry hop with it as well, 50g in 21 liter beer. Tasted really promising yesterday when I bottled it. Maybe you wanna give a it a shot and dry hop with saaz as well

 

[johnstod]

I just brewed an 1865 recipe ipa with almost only saaz. Did dry hop with it as well, 50g in 21 liter beer. Tasted really promising yesterday when I bottled it. Maybe you wanna give a it a shot and dry hop with saaz as well

Oh nice, I might split some off to dry hop half and do a side by side of them. Saaz is nice and cheap so don't mind buying a load of it.

 

[Miraculix]

Oh nice, I might split some off to dry hop half and do a side by side of them. Saaz is nice and cheap so don't mind buying a load of it.

That's a brilliant idea, don't forget to share your results! Dry hop at the end of primary, to keep as much aroma as possible.

 

[johnstod]

That's a brilliant idea, don't forget to share your results! Dry hop at the end of primary, to keep as much aroma as possible.

Will post back here if I remember to do it in 2 months once they are done.

 

[Miraculix]

I decided to brew a one gallon batch instead of making a starter for my wlp800 Schwarzbier.

1kg chevallier at 62c mashing temperature met 6g old cluster hops at 60min plus 13g at flame out.

About 1.055og and it was showing already a bit of activity this morning.

I couldn't resist this possibility to get to know chevallier better without risking a bigger batch.

 

[Miraculix]

Little update, bubbeling happily but the wlp800 really looks like a top fermenting ale yeast... nice and really creamy Krausen.

 

[deadwolfbones]

Setting up to brew a John Courage Amber Lager clone this weekend with 34/70 at ale temps. Planning to follow the method laid out on the first page... couple weeks at 68F, couple weeks in the bottle at room temp, couple weeks "lagering" in the fridge.

 

[Miraculix]

I used a one gallon batch to multiply the cell count of a wlp800 pilsener yeast pack. Did bottle it yesterday and the sample tasted really really clean. Also flocculation was far superior to the 3470. I'm doing a split batch now with the 800 and with mangrove Jack California lager. Let's see who is going to win this match!

Won't be using 3470 anymore due to poor flocculation.... Have still three packs flying around.... Might do an experime and pitch it together with a high floc ale yeast.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Careful, if the authorities hear of you making beer with ale yeast they might not let you back in - or if they do, they'll confine you to Dusseldorf/Cologne....

Talking of which, it might be interesting to do a side by side of 800 and a kolsch yeast.

 

[Nebraskan]

Little update, bubbeling happily but the wlp800 really looks like a top fermenting ale yeast... nice and really creamy Krausen.

That's because WLP800 IS an ale yeast.

 

[Nebraskan]

Setting up to brew a John Courage Amber Lager clone this weekend with 34/70 at ale temps. Planning to follow the method laid out on the first page... couple weeks at 68F, couple weeks in the bottle at room temp, couple weeks "lagering" in the fridge.

Seems like too many 'couple weeks' I've made a Stout on 2 sudays ago and now drinking it on a Tues. this week. Tastes great!

 

[deadwolfbones]

Seems like too many 'couple weeks' I've made a Stout on 2 sudays ago and now drinking it on a Tues. this week. Tastes great!

You made a... lager stout?

 

[Miraculix]

That's because WLP800 IS an ale yeast.

I know, but it is sold and used as a lager yeast, that's the funny side of it. I don't mind as long as the beer tastes like it has been fermented with a lager yeast..

 

[deadwolfbones]

So I brewed up a 3gal batch of John Courage Amber on Saturday 3/24 and pitched a full packet of rehydrated w-34/70 into 68F wort at around 10pm. When I woke up the next morning it was bubbling merrily at 60F. Stayed between 55 and 60F for the next two days, bubbling quite vigorously, even last night. Woke up today, Tuesday 3/27, and the airlock is dead. Temp's still around 58F.

Think it's finished already? Should I move it inside to warm up?

I know how ales behave, but this is my first try with lager yeast so not sure what to expect or how to proceed.

EDIT: Took a refractometer reading and got 6.6 Brix, which the Brewer's Friend adjustment calculator says is ~1.015 from my 1.046 OG. Beersmith predicted 1.011 FG, so getting close already.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

Little update, bubbeling happily but the wlp800 really looks like a top fermenting ale yeast... nice and really creamy Krausen.

One thing I've noticed with ANY lager yeast, regardless of whether it's a "true" lager yeast or not, is that when I prop up my starters at room temp they all develop a nice krausen. My guess is that it's a function of temperature.

 

[Miraculix]

One thing I've noticed with ANY lager yeast, regardless of whether it's a "true" lager yeast or not, is that when I prop up my starters at room temp they all develop a nice krausen. My guess is that it's a function of temperature.

I think I didn't see this behavior behavior with 3470, but California lager (1 gallon for comparison, same beer as the 800) did certainly show also a nice krausen.

I guess temperature speeds things up, more co2 per time step, and if the yeast is now at least a little bit flocculant, it might catch some of those bubbles and drift to the top to form a krausen. 3470 might be to powdery to do this.... Or my one batch I made with it was a slow starter.

Long story short, I agree

 

[applescrap]

So I brewed up a 3gal batch of John Courage Amber on Saturday 3/24 and pitched a full packet of rehydrated w-34/70 into 68F wort at around 10pm. When I woke up the next morning it was bubbling merrily at 60F. Stayed between 55 and 60F for the next two days, bubbling quite vigorously, even last night. Woke up today, Tuesday 3/27, and the airlock is dead. Temp's still around 58F.

Think it's finished already? Should I move it inside to warm up?

I know how ales behave, but this is my first try with lager yeast so not sure what to expect or how to proceed.

EDIT: Took a refractometer reading and got 6.6 Brix, which the Brewer's Friend adjustment calculator says is ~1.015 from my 1.046 OG. Beersmith predicted 1.011 FG, so getting close already.

Probably better to post in a traditional lager thread, as this is the warm fermented lager thread. That said, sure ramp it up. I think it sounds done. Since you fermented below 60, d rest and some other stuff could be in play but i doubt it. That said I am not sure. Reach out to yooper, she will know for sure what you should do. In the future, just pitch 34/70 and let it ride and see how you like warm fermented lagers.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I don't know Scrap, that's not ale temps but it's not lager temps either. That mid range is probably the perfect balance between the two and it's definitely warmer than traditional lager brewers prefer! I think the post belongs here and welcome [emoji482]
Just because the airlock isn't bubbling doesn't mean the yeast aren't still working, but go ahead and ramp it slowly into the mid to upper 60s for a D rest, then bring it back down slowly so the yeast don't all floc out and let it lager for a couple of weeks to clean up. Should be delicious!